Just had a bizarre experience. Called the building inspector to do the framing inspection on my addition, and after almost two weeks go by I finally get the fellow on site, taking the morning off my real job to do so.
The inspector asks, “Is that the only way up to the 2nd floor?”, pointing to my ladder from grade to a patio door opening on the 2nd floor ~11 feet from grade. You know, the ladder we used to build the place- the one that I’ve been up and down at least 200 times in the past month. Note this is a heavy-duty contractor grade ladder, properly tied off at the top and on level firm ground at the bottom. I reply “Yes, the plan is to have the addition dried in before we open the weather envelope of the existing house (you know, the place where my pregnant wife and 3 yr old son live), and that’s where the permanent stairs are.”
To this he replied, “Then I can’t help you- I’m not permitted to climb a ladder!”
Puzzled, I ask him, “But you climbed DOWN a ladder to inspect the footing forms!”
To this he replied, “Yes, I’m permitted to climb down a ladder into an excavation, but not up a ladder to the 2nd floor.”
Now this particular building inspector is a very reasonable fellow- actually quite friendly and helpful as well as relatively practical. I think he knows full well the absurdity of the situation, but a building inspector fell off a ladder and died once, so they put an end to ladders about a year ago and he’s not about to break the department’s rules. Too bad nobody told ME that!
The sad thing is that this guy seems to be of the opinion that there’s something in our labour regulations which prohibits the use of ladders for construction access. He’s dead wrong there, as we build PERMANENT structures (chemical plant modules) which have permanent ladders for access to maintenance platforms and which meet all applicable Canadian and US regulations. A permanent ladder of a length equivalent to the one my BI refused to climb doesn’t even require a safety cage! We’re not talking about a “right to refuse” situation here- there’s nothing unsafe about the ladder. We’re also not talking about a need for a harness and lanyard either, since he’s only using the ladder to gain access to an enclosed platform- none of his work would require him to “work” from the ladder.
My options are to provide him with “temporary stairs” (i.e. a scaffold stair tower- not bloodly likely!), or to cut in a temporary door (with a lock so my 3 yr old doesn’t get into the addition and fall to his death out one of the ROs), or to hire an engineer to do my inspection- he’ll climb a ladder! If I can get my engineer in here in a reasonable period of time, that’s what I’ll be doing.
How the heck do these guys inspect roof sheathing? Or ridges? Or virtually anything?!!
Guess all you people working in Toronto knew this already! Just another thing a DIY has to learn the hard way, I guess. Or has my life just become a Kafka novel?
Replies
Can you rent a portable set of stairs or a lift from the local rental center?
Build a set of temporary outdoor stairs. cheaper than an engineer, and you'll end up using them for the duration of the job - much easier on the legs than ladder climbing all day.
Can't you just construct some temporary stairs on the exterior? Just remove them when done. I wouldn't want to carry a lot of building materials up a ladder, but yeah, it does sound like a silly rule.
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.
-- Walter Percy Chrysler
Use temporary steps as others have already said because you really have no other choice. It's the cheapest way to get it inspected.
Framing's done, boys, and once I've got a roof on it we'll have the drywall delivered with a boom truck- so what good would it be to rent and assemble a set of temporary stairs NOW? Once it's dried in, I can open up the hole with no worries and the ladder's done with.
We didn't lug much up the ladder- most of it came up via a winch, nice and easy. The rest was hand-bombed the way we poor b@stards who don't have a telescoping forklift on site do these things!
Temporary stairs at this point in the job would be pointless. I'll have to cut the hole and scab it over with plywood afterward to keep my son out of the addition. The engineer's too expensive to consider doing otherwise.
I'll have to contact the building department and find out if that's a "no ladders" or a "no exterior ladders" rule. Stupid rule either way- the guy still has a right to refuse if he considers the access I provide him to be unsafe, as does every worker on every jobsite, but no able-bodied person in their right mind would consider this a dangerous ladder! As I said, buddy's just following orders from head office so I can't fault him.
Here in Southern Michigan we recieved notices about stair and railings a few years ago.
Although not strictly enforced. we are to have at least one entrance to a site with steps of legal rise and run plus handrails if exceeds three rises.
Never been forced on the handrail issue, but the inspectors will not walk up a plank or ladder to access the job.
Our inspectors never get up on the roof for an inspection.
Terry
Framing's done, boys, and once I've got a roof on it we'll have the drywall delivered with a boom truck- so what good would it be to rent and assemble a set of temporary stairs NOW? Once it's dried in, I can open up the hole with no worries and the ladder's done with.
Your the one that said in your first post that you needed a framing inspection and didn't want to cut a whole in your wall because of your son and you also said that you didn't want to build a temporary set of stairs.
So you have to do one or the other because you wont get your framing inspection and what good is the sheetrock going up there without a framing inspection?
So you have know choice again as I said before or you wont get an inspection. So now you choose to cut the whole which is fine instead of temp steps.
Just a quick question. Why/where would you rent a set of stairs and not build a temporary set if that was your only way to get it inspected?
Joe CarolaJoe Carola
The thing to rent would be a couple sections of scaffolding "stair tower" like the one we use at work building our multi-storey plant modules. But the time to do that would have been before we started framing the 2nd floor walls, when the thing could have been of some use, not after framing is complete. Way better than building temporary stairs with handrail from grade or from the 1st floor. I sincerely doubt this inspector would like squeezing between a pair of joists in the latter case!
I'm cutting the hole because that's the easiest and cheapest of a bunch of bad options. Hope he doesn't slip on any of my son's toys as he walks up our stairs though!
I made nice with the guy when he brought this up and will continue to do so. Once I have all my approvals, I'll be talking to the city about the rule itself- not the guy's conduct in following the rule, which I totally understand.
MM - I'm with you on this one - for what ever that's worth.
If you have really reached your limit, call the chief inspector and ask the same questions you asked here - why is down different than up? How do you check roof framing? Ask around locally - what are the other options?
Telling him to go to heII is probably not a good choice.
You got me on a bad week. I've had several go 'rounds with the local gov't who are a bunch of ___________s. (You fill in the blank.)
Don
On alot of commerical jobs that have red iron, they will have a pre fab stair well that you pour concrete on for the steps and landing. These stairwells are completely welded and one piece. county will not let anybody use these stairs till concrete is poured. So that is usually the first thing poured.
No real help for you, but sympathy. I dealt with the same issue in NJ back in the 80s. Heck, the inspector once refused to do a footing because the ground was muddy! That got a call to the boss. Seems to me that training someone who's smart enough to become an inspector to climb ladders safely isn't unreasonable.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
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None of this matters in geological time.
Molten, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
If I was an inspector (I'm not), I'd refuse to climb anyone's ladder. If you ever saw all the bad ladders I've seen, you'd know why I'd refuse.
Is your ladder a Type IA? Probably not. If it isn't, it shouldn't have been on a rough frame anyways.
All you had to do is cut a hole through the drywall and side wall. After the inspector left, you could screw a piece of plywood over the hole.
Like I said, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I know because I tend to do that myself on occasion.
blue
Yeah Blue, I know that it's not a big deal to cut the hole. I had half a mind to cut it while he waited, but I doubt he would have waited.
The missed morning of (paying) work waiting for the dude to show up, and the fact that I've now got to wait at least another week or more before he will come back to look at the place again, and ANOTHER missed day of paying work when he does- that's what's p*ssing me off. Especially when it's over NOTHING.
The only place I have to cut a hole for this guy is where a window is currently situated. So I lose that window a couple months earlier than planned- guess it's not a big deal, but when it's over absolutely NOTHING, that too pisses me off. Don't worry, I'll make it secure after he leaves. No danger of my son getting out or of the racoons getting in!
FYI it's a fr*ckin amazing ladder, built in the days when aluminum was cheap and people didn't mind hefting all that metal around with them. It's a 28 footer at 0% extension, rigid as all get out. Probably puts a 1A to shame.
I'm all for safety on the job, but this is a bit ridiculous don't you think?! The safety #### take all the thinking out of it, removing people's judgment with stupid over-generalized rules. If he didn't like my ladder he had the right to refuse to use it, but there's a limit to what is considered a "reasonable" refusal to work. In this case he had no choice- somebody made a rule and he had to park his personal judgment at the door.
Okay, I'll stop whining now!
"he safety #### take all the thinking out of it, removing people's judgment with stupid over-generalized rules. If he didn't like my ladder he had the right to refuse to use it,"The problem then is when an inspector deems a ladder as unsafe, he or she is the target of the contractor's anger.In other words, if you leave room for judgement there will be those who dispute it.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Rig a noose & hoist him up by that
I have a couple of 12' 2x12s, about 10 3' 2x12s, 20 Simpson stair angles, and a box of small lag bolts. Temporary stairs take about an hour.
Where I live in SW Connecticut the permit application form has a line in all caps that says no inspections will take place without stairs. They make it loud and clear so there are no surprises. I was using a ladder to get to our second floor for a while early in the framing stage but the 2 hours I spent building a temporary set were the smartest 2 hours I've spent on this whole project.
Yep, that would have been sensible. But just like the trees on private property issue I had to deal with during the permit application process, a note about this was utterly absent from the permit package. All it says is that you need to provide the inspector "safe access"- it makes no specific reference to anything about ladders above grade being considered unsafe!
clearly, some of these guys are missing your biggest point: the BI will climb down (and back up) a ladder to inspect a below grade foundation, but won't climb up one for anything. as if falling ten or twelve feet into a concrete floored pit (maybe full of rebar spikes) is soooo much healthier for a body than falling the same distance onto a wood framed deck. in other words, you know damn well they fully recognize the absurdity of their position, but figger they'll catch way too much sh!t for demanding temp stairs into excavations, too.
m
Yup, you've got it. He was down into that hole several times, at least once when a fall would have led to a 24 inch piece of rebar through the chest as likely as not. And the ladder I had going down into the hole was inferior to this one.
FYI, I cut the hole and Mr. Inspector gave me the OK. A few minor issues to clear up- not bad for an amateur! Geez, he didn't even laugh at the first (and probably 2nd last) hip roof I ever cut! Maybe the ladder incident bought me some brownie points!
Wish me luck- 10 cubic metres of concrete for my basement and garage slabs- with an untried sub- fortunately I'll be there on site all day to keep an eye on them, and the contractor who's making a cut on their labour swears by them. Mr. DIY won't be learning how to level concrete by trying it for the first time on his OWN house, thank you very much!