I am curious as to what people are making laminate counter top from. Particle board, mdf, etc…. I’ve read an article in Fine Homebuilding and they recommend 11/16 particle board. Any thoughts?
Dennis
Vancouver, Canada
Vancouver, Canada
Replies
My (limited) experience prefers MDF, particle board, or any other stable substrate as long as moisture isn't an issue. My father in law's (extensive) experience prefers good-one-side plywood. He built thousands of feet of fish boat surfaces in his career.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I've always used or specified ACX 3/4" plywood, like Scott's father-in-law favors, especially where water contact can occur. I've removed and replaced too many MDF and particle board countertops that have been damaged by water leaking past the caulking under the sinks, backsplashes, and where the laminate has separated from the substrate.
Standard grade kitchen counter tops are 3/4" particle board from a cabinet supply source. Not the 11/16 junk you find at the big box and discount lumber centers.
Water can be an issue with particle board. It can also be an issue with plywood.
It is all in the planning and execution of the work. Out of the 100+ tops I've built. I have only had one failure from water damage. That came from me not understanding the mechanics of women having their hair washed at a beauty salon. Once I saw the process and understood where the water was coming from, the replacement top was still good 9 years later when the salon was sold.
Know your enemy and you can beat it
What DaveR says
I might emphasize the "buy the particle board from a good cabinet shop." Do not get the stuff from the big box store, they aren't the same animal!
Doug
Advantech works GREAT. Flat , stable, wproof, cheap and sturdy.
Whats not to like?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
good point, sphere
i'll look into that , next laminate job.Expert since 10 am.
I have never tried it.
What I have tried is primeing Advantec with sherwin williams best exterior grade latex primer'
Warning !!
Advantec does not like latex primer and may not like water based contact cement. The tight flakes of advantec delaminated after coatong it with primer. The cut off pieces that were not primed and left outside for a year now are still tight and right.
I'm going so belt sand (flooring sander) the whole deck down to raw Advantec, and then reprime with an alkyd primer (test piece first).
This is interesting. Adventec is unknown to me. Does it stay flat like (dry) particle board? Plywood often isn't.
I've done a few hundred laminate counters, almost all 1 3/16" particle board. And never used a water based contact cement I liked. Serious respirator and I were good friends.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Advantec is the T&G subfloor material of choice for most of us. The stuff is darn near bullet proof for that application, when installed corestly. Unlike most osb products, the 3/4" is flat, stays that way, and hardly swells at all with prolonged exposure to weather.
Guys here talked about leaveing it outside in the mud over the winter and it is still almost as good as new the next spring. I grinned at that one, but just for sh*ts I left a 22" x 8' rip of it layuing outside all winter. It was fully exposed to all mother nature offered, except the mud.
I would have to use a micrometer to tell you how much it may have swelled, my eyes just aren't that good anymore.
I'm sure Sphere suggested it for counter top substrate because of its' performance.
That is why I issued my warning about how it reacted to water based paint. I was totally suprized by the flake raising on the painted material, while the raw stuff layed out in the weather and did nothing.
I've only used water based contact cement once myself. I'm old school solvent type myself, and yes my respirator is my friend too.
Much appreciated. I've seen glowing reviews of Adventec here as flooring, compared to other underlayment.
Maybe someday I'll build something with underlayment, 'though it seems unlikely. But a product that stays really flat is always interesting, particularly when it's impervious to the elements.
I tried several water based contact cements as they appeared, always looking for something nicer to work around. Happily, rarely do laminate anymore and quit looking. Got a lifetime supply of respirator elements from ebay awhile back, ~75 bucks with shipping.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
the particle board you want is called temblem.
You can get it through cabinet stores.
It is made for laminate counters.
Ply. is not reccomended because of voids and tend. to warp.
AC fir is no longer accepticale????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
nope
WHEW!!!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks, but I think you probably intended your post for the OP. Never heard of temblem, my suppliers (to cabinet shops like mine) just called it particle board, but they didn't sell low-desity. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I used it for a beauty salon in NC ( sinks area) aboout 6 yrs ago..they sold the shop since then, and I came in and tweaked a few cab doors, and looked at the tops..they were still like new.
Then I saw Mike Smith here used it in one of his houses..if it's good enough for Smitty, good enough for me.
I did use solvent CC, I hate the wb stuff. IIRC it was Formica brand HP lam.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I used it for a beauty salon in NC ( sinks area) aboout 6 yrs ago
That was the one place I had a p-lam/pb failure. You know the sinks that they tip back the chairs and the women lay their head in a formed rim on the sink to get thier hair washed.
I did not laminate the bottom of the top around those sink cut outs. The plumber did the cut outs and installs because the sinks took 6 weeks to arrive after ordering. Anywho, the overspray, er, really underspray, from the hair washing eventually swelled the edge from underneath and the p-lam popped.
Luckly the shop owner was the daughter of a good friend. In fact he was the major partner in the business, since he finaced it for her. He had also helped build the tops, and insisted on paying me for the cost of the rebuilt tops we but in. You don't find many good guys like him anymore.
I wish I had known about Advantec back them. Might have saved us a bunch of work.
I shuffle over to the local laminate counter shop. They sell 11/16 particle board, it's the right stuff, and I can get 5x12 sheets if so inclined.
The Advantech idea is intriguing, though. Like seriously, where do we put sinks???
i wrote that article i believe and i do recommend 11/16 particleboard
plywood is ok but it has to be really good stuff or the grain will telegraph through the laminate( i use postform grade)
mdf would be good too, but its god awefull heavy
Hi Steve,On page 61 of the article you talk about building up the edges for strength. What type of material are you using for this and how thick is it?Thanks, luv the article.DennisDennis
Vancouver, Canada
i always build up the front and back edges with more 11/16 material but only on cabinets that require build up material like all euro style cabs where the drawer fronts are even with the top of the cabinet
note that the front edge build up is flush with the substrate front, to allow the wood edge to be glued to the double thickness, the rear build up is set forward an inch or so to facilitate scribing later
I say 3/4" industrial grade particle board is the best all around substrate....I use 11/16 when laminating both sides to make doors. I never use ply (except for the occasional edge), for a few reasons:
1) the laminate manufacturers want you to use PB, and they manufacture the p/lam to work best with PB
2) because of the above, most laminate manufacturers won't warranty laminates laid up on plywood (becuas eo f telelgraphing, wood movement etc.)
3) the quality of plywood on the market today is terrible
3) the commercial cabinetmakers in North America, who make thousands of countertops per year, have built into their Quality Standard Illustrated manual (published by AWI...the Architectural Woodwork Institute in the U.S, and AWMAC, the Architectural Woodwork Manufacturers Assoc. of Canada......the Woodwork Institute of California also follows pretty much the same rules))...the bible.....the warning to never use plywood as a substrate for countertops or doors, and use a standard specification that if plywood is used (for instance if an architect or spec writer insists), no warranty will apply.
That's based on numerous failures of laminate over plywood through the years.
If I needed water resistance, I would subsitute a waterproof MDF, but generally particle board is my choice. I have never had a callback yet on countertops.