Laminate floor -what would you do?
Hello,
Yesterday I looked at 900 sq ft of laminate flooring installed on top of hardwood flooring. The floor was installed 3 years ago and buckles badly as the seasons change. the installer returned and cut the floor back but it still buckles and you can see the ends of the planks are lifted. I saw gaps but not the buckling yet – the homeowner said that it occurs during the summer. Here’s my concerns:
the house was built in 1870’s. lots of character. lots of height differences between the floor levels in the rooms. It rolls like the ocean.
The area is 90% over an uninsulated crawl space that hides a covered cistern under the house.
The laminate replaced carpet that was over the hardwoods. A solid surface flooring is essential for mobility of handicapped individuals in the house (wheelchair).
It seems to me that drastic changes from the space under the floor would have affected the hardwoods previously and it did not according to the home owner.
The homeowner does not have any money and so any action to correct this issue will be propelled by charity (benefit, donations, etc).
The installer is out of the question. He returned to correct the issue and it has become hostile. I am only involved as a 3rd party to offer another solution.
My position: I was called to give them a recommendation of what to do. I understand the problem of buckling but am not an expert in it – never installed one that did. I do not like the extreme settling of the house and changes along the floor. I doubt any snap together is going to really stay together in several areas. A prefinished wood floor is more expensive and would be going on top of another wood floor as it would have to be done with as little disruption as possible. I can provide the avg sq ft prices for installation in this area but I don’t know that I can recommend another laminate floor. Any other options that I’m overlooking?
It’s not a big deal but it does severely disrupt this families life. What would you do?
Replies
Remove the laminate, clean up the old hardwood, and paint it.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
zactly what I was thinking!
BINGO!
Eddie
Why not obital sand it and varnish it.
Paint is going to chip over time and wheelchairs are hard on floors.
A poly finish would be the most durable.
Rich
Painted wood floors were fairly common at one time. Use milk paint and it's there forever."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Does the floor have the proper expansion gaps at key areas with correct strips as spelled out by the manufacture?
If not one solution is if the install was done by a factory trained installer or one hired through a home center report him to the powers that be. The best solution may be to get bids to correct the problem and go to small claims court to prove the installer messed up. Will cost a bit to file and serve but might be money well spent.
Wallyo
Edited 4/2/2009 4:14 pm by wallyo
I have one customer whose son is in a wheelchair with partial movement of the upper body. They have hardwood in most places, however in their den (on the way from his "addition" to the kitchen) they have carpet. A low pile, feels as though no pad or one that is minimal. He gets around on that fine.
Just maybe that's a possibility. Certainly the lowest cost.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
bcarpentry
In IA people with special need can get on the waiver program. There is a Ill & Handicp Waiver, a MR waiver, Elderly Waiver, Brain Damage Waiver and a AIDS Waiver.
The would have to talk to DHS to get on the program. In IA you can get up to $6000/ year in home and vechicle modifications.
IA also has what they call IA Compass that is a clearinghouse for programs and grants for special needs.
Like I said in another post, perhaps the best solution would be to restore the hardwood floors.
I do a fair amount of handicap work, and the people by and large have no money. If it wasn't for govt money nothing would get done.
Rich
Thanks for the info so far.
I don't do a lot of that type of work but the homeowner has been wrestling w/ it for over 20 years. She has gotten a number of things done and I believe the govt is going to remod her bathroom and possibly install a track along her ceiling.
I actually asked her why she stays in the house and she can't afford to sell it. About refinishing the floors - I have no idea what condition they are in after however many years of carpet, etc. The guy who convinced her to go w/ laminate told her that the dust and fumes would affect her daughter too much. My thought was that he was primarily selling her on what he actually could do as the laminate install was not exactly a quality job. On the legal side - she has gone to the authorities over the issue and I believe filed a complaint w/ the bbb. She said things got pretty nasty and he trumped up papers documenting work he never got paid for - which she argues is work he never did. I don't know. I just want to offer a solution that I'm comfortable with. about the laminate being cut back - yeah, my assumption is that it was too tight and then he returned and supposedly cut it back. He said that she needs a dehumidifier and she says that she had a moisture test conducted and there was nothing unusual. I would think that if the moisture was extreme it would have affected the existing hardwoods as well though. Supposedly it was 999 sq ft of the lowest priced laminate they could find and sold at cost - for which she paid $5000 labor and materials. I know the floor is barely 900 sq ft but I don't know what the material cost was. Flooring companies have told her that the floor is ruined and as I said you can see the raised edges along many of the planks. It looks like the whole place was under water. Don't know if it was jammed together or if that is what a floor looks like after extreme buckling. The money for it was from a benefit and so while she is bitter about that waste she won't do it again. One of her neighbors is the one who contacted me and asked for advice before he goes about seeing what he can do to raise funds to correct this from the community. So - the predominating consensus seems to be going back to the hardwoods. Maybe I should put together a market price on that and tell them to figure in the cost of temporary lodging while the work is conducted? There is one room that has plywood over the hardwoods under the lam. and it is still on a low slant. I've always been around old homes and this is as bad a settling house as any I've ever seen. The foundation walls knocked out for ductwork probably didn't really help any.Thanks for the input.
"she says that she had a moisture test conducted and there was nothing unusual:"
I would want something more definitive than "nothing unusual". This sounds like a moisture problem and I'd bet a few milkbones that a moisture test would tell you exactly the information that you need to know. I don't know much about building houses over a cistern but I'm fairly certain that you would have to go to extremes to prevent the moisture from migrating up and wreaking havoc with a laminated floor system.
I'm with you one that. The homeowner had more to say about the previous guy and the buckling than actual helpful information. I am just following through for the guy who referred me and I am concerned about offering a professional opinion that isn't so accurate. She brushed off my concerns about the floor being over an unheated ground surface - that's when I found out that it's not just a couple feet over dirt but also over an old cistern. I'm leaning toward a low pile carpet but I know that is going to go over like a lead ballon. Would be interesting if that buckled after the lam was demo'd and it turns out to be the hardwoods after all.
Thought a bit more on this. Just curious is there foam padding under this floor? Any place to check floor register? Because if there is that should help stop any moisture coming up from below I would think. Or did the guy just go real cheap no padding?
The answer may be as simple as gutters. Does the floor start rolling in the rainy season or snow melt? Are there gutters on the whole house? Do the leaders drain the water well away from the foundation? Does the crawl space have the best vapor barrier it can have in it?
A hundred dollars in 6 mill and a day of a few volunteer hours may help solve the problem if it is moisture from the C S.
Here is another thought: C S no vapor barrier, wood floor, foam pad, laminate floor could moisture be hitting the foam pad and creating havoc with the wood floor?
Is the flooring from a well know brand call the manufacture explain the situation to them, ask if they can send a rep out, chances are the day he/she shows it will be flat but it is worth a shot. Could be the off chance the material is bad itself take pictures so if it is flat when a rep shows you have something.
Would still love to take the guy to court if he did not follow instructions, most instructions cover install over crawl space basement etc. But you may have to act quick on that route 3 years might be up as is required in most states. Judge< HO in wheel chair< contractor who ignored install instructions who would win that one?
Wallyo
Edited 4/3/2009 6:20 pm by wallyo
The registers are the old built out of the baseboard kind. I asked and the homeowner said that she remembered seeing something like a blue foam but didn't know if it covered the entire floor. The crawl space was tight. I actually am not sure how the ducts were run through it. I can climb through strapping on a ceiling that's 16" oc and I doubt I could get around under the floor.She couldn't produce papers but said that it was mohawk. I don't know anything about them but am going to check that out. The laminate is definitely ruined. It was not buckled the time I saw it but there are gaps and lifted seems everywhere. What I thought was odd is that the areas that she said buckle the worst were as tight and even as could be. She has pursued the legal side of the issue and is still going that way. As I understand he has a lawyer better than she can afford (which is none) and has produced papers saying that he didn't get paid for all the work he did - despite her asking a flooring company what the job should cost after the matter and finding out that she paid $1000 more than their figures. And her understanding was that it was material bought at cost as a donation and the installer was just to supervise volunteer labor. She said that the BBB is also not concerned about her complaint. I don't know who the guy was or what connections he has. I do know that she has been wronged however she couldn't produce the facts - saying things and showing pictures of a buckled floor still doesn't add up for a paper trail through the whole process. Unfortunately she just trusted him and he took her for it I guess. Even winning a case wouldn't mean that she would win anything. I guess she was warned that he could counter sue for defamation and drag it out. Dunno. I wonder about that "another thought" too. The catch for me was why the hardwoods wouldn't have buckled before and I never thought about moisture being trapped. Would they go back down in to place though? Despite crazy unevenness (in the entire house - door headers are inches outta level too) the floor felt fairly solid. It's old enough to predate t&g so maybe it's possible. Sorry, I am feeling like for every post I keep adding complications instead of happily accepting the responses. I really do appreciate the input and hope to keep learning from the opinions. Thanks.
I think on the legal side it would be small claims he would not be allowed a lawyer as well as her self. The claim would be that he should of never installed it give the condition of the house, he being the contractor has the greater brunt in that he should know better.Every laminate floor I ever installed gives guide lines as what should be in place i.e. something like the floor should drop no more then x inches in so many feet. That a vapor barrier should be present and so on. If not followed the fault is with the installer.
He could sue for defamation but what has she done to defame him, So and so installed it and the floor is terrible that is not defaming. Now if she says so and so installed it and he was drinking and playing cards and not watching the job, and the last day of the job went to Atlantic City with my money and lost it all which I doubt is the case that is defamation if not true.Another route would be the Attorneys General Office, most have a consumers division to file with. May even have a Senior freud division to file with.As for the BBB she should still be able to file a report, the forms are sometimes online or she should ask for them to be sent. It is not up to them weather a complaint is filed, They should send the forms and she should file. It does not do much, hers might be the first but it is a start and if he is bad news a 2nd and 3rd will come along.Mohawk is pretty large Home Depot or Lowes has it now and then, they might help out on getting a Rep out to look at it for her if you explain what is going on to the Flooring manager and they carry Mohawk. Who knows might be you get a sympathetic ear and they donate some new product along with elbow grease to install it. Good luck your in a tough boat. Anything else comes to mind I will post it.
Thanks. The guy who asked me to look at it is actually a lawyer and so I figured I'd let him advise on the legalities but I like to learn about them. I know that she has gone to the AG's but I guess it didn't go well for her. that's got her very frustrated. Gotta admit, made me a wee bit suspicious that the installer could shut her down if everything she says is true. I'd rather believe that they need help and made a mistake in trusting the expressed intent. I think that I was told there is another complaint about the contractor but they don't say what about - just that he did everything he could to resolve the issue.
How big are the rooms ? Are there any places where the laminate runs for more than 28' ? I allways break long runs in doorways.
it goes 14x16 w/ a 3' hall way to 15x27 w/ two bedrooms parallel lengthwise that are 9x12 and 15x27 w/ a transition strip between them (basically two parallel 27' runs but a height change between the bedrooms. I think the bedrooms were alright. The worst buckle she said was in the 14x16 and 15x27. The installer did return to cut the floors after they first buckled but it happened again which is when there was supposedly a moisture test as he claimed that she needed a dehumidifier. The flooring store told her that the floor was already damaged and so the edges would "tepee" anyways as they were already weakened by doing it. Personally, I would not have put a laminate on such an uneven surface. I wouldn't have expected this to happen but I would have thought gaps would open up in a number of areas. They did but she says they weren't there until after the floor buckled.