laminated flooring at doorways
Okay — at the risk of looking stupid (not for the first time) I need to ask this question. I feel like there’s something obvious that I’m missing here.
Until now, my experience with laminated “floating” flooring has been after homeowners have installed it themselves in the “center” of rooms, ignoring the issues around the edges, and have called me in to make it look better. I do what I can with moldings and caulks and blame the gaps on the homeowners.
Today I had my first start-to-finish installation, and I’m still stumped by the doorways. HOW DOES THIS WORK?!
I managed, with some trial and error, to run the (12″ wide) flooring planks through a 6′ closet doorway without gaps, although it was a challenge. I’ve got the part about undercutting the jamb and casing, and I slid flooring in under each jamb from the center, somehow managed to get a full piece between, and called it good.
But Thursday’s job requires several small doorways, some of them small closets. The flooring is running parallel to the doors. Other than completely removing the casing AND the jamb and re-installing them, is there some way to get the flooring in without leaving gaps?
Please tell me I’m not the only one to struggle with this!
Sue
Replies
Remove the existing 1/4 round, install the laminate, and replace it with 1/4 round to match the laminate.
And check out the associated fast-trim for various transition solutions.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved"
Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
Maybe I wasn't clear. There is no 1/4 round going around the door casing and door jambs -- that's where I'm having a problem. Sue
Ah, I misunderstood.Undercut the trim and jambs.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved"
Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
The "professional" re-flooring jobs I've seen always have at least a small gap where they under cut the casings and jambs...but usually there's a bunch of tear-out chunks too<G>We usually undercut with a Fein riding on a scrap of something that is slightly thinner than the flooring, but there does have to be a bit of gappage just to get the pieces underneath...sounds like you did it as well as possible. Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
Ah, good to see someone else using a Fein for undercutting, and just about every other kind of detail cutting and sanding. I don't know how I did things before I got it!!!!!!! So fast, so easy, so accurate, so clean, so, so, so, not enough adjectives around for that machine.Never fear the want of business. A man who qualifies himself well for his calling, never fails of employment.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
One thing you might try is setting the flooring so you have a joint that lands at the door threshold. Then you can make the one side real tight and then slide the next piece into it and get the other side tight.
Let's think about that....If I put a seam in the doorway parallel to the door, I have to either do it in one piece (from each side) or put another seam perpendicular to the door. In order to stagger joints, the most I could expect is to have two seams 12" apart (vertically).In the first scenario, I need to remove the door casing from the "first" side so I can rotate the piece into its locked position, and I can't possibly get it under the jamb on either side -- unsightly gaps on both sides. If I try to put an "end" seam in the doorway, I need to work 4' long pieces in under the casing and jamb from the middle of a doorway that may be 2' total opening. I CAN'T be the first person ever to run flooring through a doorway? How do the "professionals" do this? Sue
One of the reasons I do not do laminate floors. It is much easier with real wood and T&G joints-no concerns about locking in.
That's what I've done until now, but it's hard to turn down work. BTW, I tell these people I AM the professional, which is why I feel it's important to do it right. They hired me instead of the flooring dealers, and I'd like to be able to give them the same quality job. Sue
I think your best bet is to scribe as close as you can get to match your door opening. Unfortunately the lack of flexibility with the laminate means you have to give somewhere in order to get the flooring snapped in. Probably do not even need to cut the jambs or casing since you won't be able to get under there anyways.
Good Luck
BTW you are probably doing a better job than flooring dealer installers already
Edited 7/24/2007 5:36 pm by Hiker
Sue--when I install this stuff I do remove the casings and jambs. This is a real pain because you then have to recaulk and touch-up paint but I don't know of any other way to get a first class looking job. I'll be closely watching this thread for ideas from others.
I just can't believe the "flooring guys" do that. They're not carpenters. They won't even cut off doors if the flooring is too high -- I've gotten a lot of work that way, following behind them and making the doors work. But I can't believe their customers are happy if they leave gaps between the floor and the jamb. I don't mean gaps in height from cutting the casing -- I mean gaps you can see when you look down at the floor, and the flooring doesn't meet the casing or the jamb, in the plane of the floor. Sue
A seam perpendicular to the run of the door opening, (middle, eitherside). You need to sort of scribe cut the plank in an arc where the casing/jamb meet. Install one side (of the opening), then pull the other to it. If plank width runs through the opening, do the same.
If it's that bogus time saver - click lock-, then use a utility knife to modify the click and lay in some glue.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Suzy,
Not familiar with the locking type, but, can the flooring be moved sideways (with a block of wood and a hammer maybe) once it's layed flat? If so, layout so you have a seam in the middle of the doorway. For reference, door is in front of me and I'm working from my side thru the doorway with flooring working from L. to R. Cut the R. half piece so it will slip under the door jamb 3/8" in it's "home" position, set it aside, cut the L. side so it will also slip under the jamb 3/8". I'm assuming that you have at least 3/4" from jamb face to RO stud face on each side. Now install R. side and slide to R. as far as possible (or tight to stud of RO), now install L. side piece into it's "home" position, now slide R. side back to left and into it's "home" position. This all assumes you have at least 3/4" on each side to give you the working room to slide the pieces into place, this should leave no gap showing. Any gap at the wall is covered by the trim. I'm also assuming a 3/8" (or less) reveal at the trim.
Again this is all assuming you can slide this stuff R. to L. from a flat position, or maybe you can alter the "locking" ability to allow you to slide the flooring. Good Luck!
Geoff
The difficulty here is that the planks are all 4' wide, t & g on each end, and a tile pattern, so they cannot be cut. Maneuvering 4' boards in a 2-3' doorway just isn't possible. I used the technique you described in a 6' closet doorway yesterday, and managed to make it work. I can't figure out a regular passage door, though. Another issue is that the planks need to meet us precisely with the ends of the adjacent boards on the "room side", so there really isn't the option of forcing them beyond their position and pulling them back -- except when the passage door is close to the end of the wall, where the baseboard would cover any gaps, as you described. Keep the ideas coming! I must say I'm relieved, in a way, that there isn't an obvious answer that I had overlooked. Thanks. Sue
When I have faced similar situations, I usually just installed a matching threshhold. That may involve trimming the door, but that's less of a problem than re-doing the jambs and casing, and looks better, IMHO, than poorly fitting flooring at the jambs. Just personal preference.
Option 2: If there is a door, undercut the latch side jamb and leave the gap, as small as possible, at the hinge side (a bit less noticeable there), which you can fill with matching color caulk. Still need to remove the stops, though.
Option 3): Undercut the jambs. Trim the snap tongue so it's a slip tongue, slide it into place and glue it.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hi Sue,
<<The difficulty here is that the planks are all 4' wide, t & g on each end, and a tile pattern, so they cannot be cut.>>
Are you saying that you can't cut the pieces even at the wall? is it the tile pattern that is the hang-up? Can you post a pic of what your working with, it would make it easier to help.
Geoff
No; of course I can cut the pieces at the wall. It's just that, once the pattern is established, I don't have a lot of options as far as plank placement at the doors. The planks are 4' wide and they need to "stagger" at 1', 2', or 3' -- not just anywhere in relation to the previous row.Most suggestions for working at the doorway involve undercutting the jamb and sliding pieces "out" to the sides from inside the doorway. A 4' piece simply does not fit inside a standard passage doorway, so that can't work. I can try to get a picture tomorrow, when I go back to start the sunroom and kitchen. It sounds, from the responses so far, that I didn't overlook the obvious, which was my biggest concern. It's just not an easy problem to solve, and sometimes it may be necessary to remove the jamb, casing, and stop to do it without gaps. Sue
>>The difficulty here is that the planks are all 4' wide, t & g on each end, and a tile pattern, so they cannot be cut. Maneuvering 4' boards in a 2-3' doorway just isn't possible.
That's why you use a transition piece between trimmed planks in the doorway
http://www.fastrim.org/laminate-fastrim.html (see the first "T-molding" illustration)
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved"
Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
Okay. I didn't realize that was inevitable, was hoping for a more craftsman-like solution. Sue
Does the tile pattern not allow you to join two boards in that doorway? and work back to the other flanking walls?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Hmmm....I seem to be having a problem describing the problem! Or less I'm missing something. Yes, I could put a seam in the doorway. But I can't work with planks shorter than 4' (unless the doorway has a wall close to it on both sides, as at the end of a narrow hallway). And I can't figure out how to start my 4' plank in a doorway that's 2-3' wide. Sue
Concept:Align 2 boards/plancks as if the seam is in the middle of the door
Cut out to an "H" shape
Take 'em apart and slide/snap together from each room
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved"
Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
Yes; If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that I need to put a transition piece (molding) over the seam in the middle, parallel to (and under) the door. I do understand how to make it work with that piece hiding a seam. I thought there should be a way to do it without that. I'm more accustomed to working with "real" tongue-and-groove flooring, where everything is possible if you just think about it a while. Sue
We must be having a failure to communicate. And for this I am sorry.
If the t&g seam doesn't break in the doorway, then what rjw explains about two "U"-shaped pcs of flooring will work.
If the t&g seam does break in the doorway, then four pcs of flooring will work.
I wish I had a picture of this, the description would be right here b/4 your eyes.
The end (of board) seam either way is in the doorway. That is where you start and work both ways. Or still start where you usually do, but have those pcs cut so there's a end seam in that door. Doesn't make any difference where that door is along the wall.
Then again, maybe your not talking about a door in a wall that runs parallel to the run of the flooring.
It is the same as regular t&g flooring, only the pcs are bigger.
Best of luck.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
It will work only if you "modify" the long joints so that they don't have to "roll down" to click shut. You would need to slide them together while they're flat to the floor. They can't be rolled without getting in the way of the casing. You need to modify both the last piece going in adjacent to the larger floor and the piece that's seaming in the middle from the other room or closet. If we're in agreement so far, I can see that this is possible as long as there's a long seam in the middle of the door jamb. That pretty much means laying out the floor from the beginning so that every passage door parallel to the flooring has a seam in it. Or else cutting it so that that happens and putting a "transition" piece there. I'm just saying this out loud to make sure I'm understanding it right, and so I can remember it for another time. Normally I lay it out to avoid really small pieces at any end of the big room.Am I right about this single restriction? Thanks for your patience with me. Sue
Sue.
You don't need the long seam (t&g) to fall in the center or anywhere near center. The only seam that has to fall in the doorway is the end of the plank seam. That allows you to pull back or to go both ways from that point.
Dam wish I had a picture.
___________________ ___________________
wall I_______I_______I wall
___________________I I___________________A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin --It's your post that most intrigues me, and that I would like to be able to understand -- how to make this work if only the end seam is in the door. I still can't figure out how I get this 4' plank, cut into an "h" shape around the jamb in a 3' (or so) doorway. Remember that these planks are 12 inches by 4 feet. They don't bend. What am I missing? Sue
Suzy,The big key here is removing the bump on the tongue. This allows you to fit two pieces together while they are flat on the floor. Glue these joints.Undercut the casing and jambs. There should be enough room in the undercut to allow the flooring piece to move in enough to clear the tongue on the side and still be under the jamb when it is moved back.Sometimes I've had to sit and stare at the situation to figure all of it out, but I think you'd have to have some really unusual combination of openings/obstructions to not be able to do it by trimming the click.I use a small hand plane to trim the click.Once you can slide the pieces straight together while flat on the floor you can get around a LOT.It is interesting (and extremely unhelpful) that not all brands of laminate floors include that technique in the instructions.
Rich BeckmanComing to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand the problem seeing what I am trying to convey.
But, having done a whole boatload of doorways that peppered this old house I worked on a couple of years ago, I know you can do it.
I was using random length x 8'' cherry plank. It happened to be t&g and a more forgiving click lock. Like Rich says, shave that clicker off and use glue.
One more try:
If you are straddling a door opening with that 12'' plank (NO LONG SEAM running with the door opening length:
You need to two pc with an end seam somewhere in that door opening. It can be anywhere. Cut one board in the shape of a "U" and slide it in and under the undercut jamb, casing and just a bit of the base board too (your shoe will not cover that very small part where base meets casing((especially when you pull the pc back to mate up with its counterpart on the other side of the door opening)) ). This board is now in both rooms. It's the finish board in the one room you are coming out of and is the beginning board in the room you are going through that door into.
Slide that one as far as it'll go under that doorjamb.
Now, you need another pc to finish covering the subfloor in that doorway and to continue on both into the next room and to finish up the room you are working on. Measure carefull and cut sweeping (not 90's) notches so it will fit both into the end of the pc. you just put down and will be able to slide under that other side jamb/casing etc. Shave the clickers so it goes together easily. Now, you've got two pcs joined together, covering that doorway but there's a gap on the end of the last pc (at the jamb).
Slide the joined two pcs. back under the other jamb and now there's no gap anywhere. Finish to the left and right in the room you are working from................and start to the left and right on the room you are going into. Again, the end joints of the boards might probably need their clickers removed. Glue those together. After you've gotten a run into the new room, continue as you have done in the past.
yes?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I'll have to get back to you. Your explanation is clear as a bell. You've done a great job of describing this. And I still have a problem visualizing it. I'm usually good at this, but I keep coming up with a mental snag when I try to slip the U-shaped piece over the undercut jamb. It has to be done with the piece flat on the floor in order to slip under the jamb and casing. It can't be done at much of a diagonal, because the slot can't be more than 1/2" wider than the jamb. But the piece is 4' long and the door opening is less than that. I'm going to have to go down to the shop, nail a 2 x 4 to the floor to simulate a jamb, cut out some contractor's paper or 1/4" plywood to simulate the flooring, and figure this out. Right now, I'm going to go hear some music, though! Later. Sorry I'm being so difficult about this. Sue
Suzy,Is this what you are trying to do??
I don't think this is possible. You would need to start the row with a piece of such length that you get two planks meeting somewhere in the doorway.
Rich BeckmanComing to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RichBeckman -- Yes, except that it doesn't have to be all one piece. It can have a seam perpendicular to the (closed) door. I think we've already agreed that it's possible with a seam parallel to the door, but that involves restrictions I'd rather not have. Sue
Sue,
I understand the situation. Random length offers you some more opportunities.
Would there be a way..............rip the pc. at the jamb line and re tongue or groove it?
Rip the pc. at the jamb line and glue and clamp with a lam. floor strap/suction clamp?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
You know....this material is so thin and so precisely machined that I don't think I want to even consider re-machining the edges to fit together. I'm sure I don't have any tools that would make that kind of joint. Not to mention, in this case, that the planks are made to look like ceramic tiles and the grout lines need to line up, so the total length of the planks needs to be very precise. Losing saw kerfs would affect the length, and splicing parts of two different planks would be obvious in the "texture" of the painted finish.It's been a great discussion, and I appreciate ALL of the feedback. I'm encouraged to think I've investigated and explored all of the options. I think I can make it work with a horizontal (parallel) seam in the door, or by "forcing" a horizontal seam with their molding, if necessary. Otherwise, removing the jamb seems to be the alternative. As a matter of fact, I think it should be possible to do by removing the casing and just under-cutting the jambs, circumventing the locking feature by modifying the joining seam. That would allow me to slip the planks in as you (Calvin) described earlier. It's been an intriguing puzzle. I think I've gotten through the current job without this becoming an issue, and perhaps no one else will ask me to install this stuff! Sue
If it's supposed to look like stone or tile, why not put in "marble" threshold inserts where the door casings interrupt the pattern? I'm not sure what's available in real or faux products, but that would eliminate the problem of trying to run the laminate through those doorways.
OK. Refer to pic.Blue is wall, yellow laminate floor. You've brought the ripped planks up to the door. The next plank (A) will go through the door. Undercut the casing and jambs. I use a Fein multimaster laying the blade on a scrap of laminate. Make sure the undercutting goes all the way to the 2x4 (may be more room than you need, but what the hey...)The edges with the black line get the click planed off.Lay board A down and slide it in. DON'T GLUE IT YET!Measure and cut board B.When you measure these cut them so when they are in place, there is an amount equal to the width of the tongue in empty space between the plank and the 2x4s (so you have that much play).If you've cut them with enough play, then you will be able to lever one down into it's position. Lever the other one down. Now push them together. Then push the two of them into the previously laid laminate. If you are confident of the fit, you can glue them before pushing them together. Otherwise, dry fit and then curse your indecisiveness while you separate them so you can glue.
There is not a lot of margin for error when you have to leave the play but you want to end up with the edges under the jamb. Measure carefully.
Rich BeckmanComing to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As another poster suggested, I think you have three options:
1. Remove the jambs, install the flooring around the jamb, and then reinstall jambs.
2. Using a knife, trim locking portion of groove so that the two pieces can mate together on a flat plane without having to roll and lock. Use glue to secure the pieces.
3. Use shoe molding to hide gaps
I suspect that most people do option #2 if you want to avoid option #3.
I just finished installing 700 sq. ft. of laminate in my home, 1st time I have done the snap and click type. I worked around 12 interior doors and it took some time and planning. I undercut the jambs and trim enough to slide the piece in and then pull it back into the other jamb. As other have said before, any "mistakes" can be touched up with caulk, but I only had to do that on one doorway.
I must toot my own horn here it came out beautiful! I was very impressed with my own work (a first I think) but it really wasn't that hard, just very time consuming. I had to cut several of the doorway transition pieces several times to get it right, but with patience it worked. My pieces were 5'' wide and 52" long.
Sue,
Would it be possible to carefully rip the locking portion away in a strip thin enough to roll it in and attach it to the last plank, and then re-attach the remainder with dowels and glue, and then continue on? If maintaining the width is crucial, you could make up for the saw kerf by ripping a second plank slightly wider and using it for the remainder. I know that would be a lot of trouble, and it may be a dumb idea, but I'm just trying to come up with an additional option for you.
Regardless of how this works out, I truly admire your commitment to excellence. That makes you a "pro" in my book and I think your client is very lucky to have you performing that job.
Michael
New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.