So here is a picture of an attic I am finishing out. If you refer to the picture you can see the floor is level with the outside deck. An Anderson Sliding glass door will go in this 5′ space. It seems like a leak waiting to happen since there is no step down from the outside deck to the inside.
The deck will be covered with an ice and dam shield membrane and tiled. Beyond that, can anyone suggest a way to assure water does not infiltrate under the door? There should be some mix of flashing and door pan I am sure. Should I raise the door with a 1x to allow for the lip on most door pans or use one of the plastic ones that simply go under the door?
I appreciate in advance any insight.
Thanks
Kevin
Replies
Could you resize the picture for us dial up folks please.
I agree with you; that looks like trouble. The Andersen units I've seen have an aluminum sill at the bottom. The inside of the sill is about 2" high, while the outside is less than 1/8". You will have to make sure that the outside sill is above the top of the tile and that the joint between the sill and whatever it rests on is completely watertight. You probably also want some sort of flashing at the bottom of the seam between the door frame and the rough opening.
The membrane will be at least 1/8" thick, and the tile about 1/2", for a total height of a bit less than 3/4". I think I would install a piece of vinyl 1x4 under the door sill and caulk it extremely well.
George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
I appreciate in advance any insight
10-4
Ok, you are going to get clobbered for a photo that large (google "irfanview free download"; and resize the attachment by 1/3 that size at a minimum).
But, the "important" part of the photo is reall only that forlorn bit of 15# window flashing under the bottom plate, to go with the 0 slope deck install.
None of that "reads" right to me at all.
Out of curiosity, where in Texas? Not that being in Uvalde will stop it from leaking worse than being in Seguin, even if there's near 10" of difference in rainfall between those tow places--just curiosity on my part.
Is this your house, one you are building, one you are subbing, or what? (More a measure of "how much leverage do you have on the project?") Is there an AHJ/BI?
Putting a 'plate' under the door would be my last choice, period. Unless the finish floor is going to be 2" taller than the plywood installed, all it will do is trip every user. It won't do much for leaks, either, IMO, other than "push" them to even-less reapirable areas along that wall.
This project is in the Austin TX area. So infrequent rain but heavy when it comes. Not a lot of freezing and thawing.
This is my home and I am acting as the GC on this project. I can do whatever is necessary to do it properly.
I certainly agree on the plate but most door pans I see are designed for a brick mold so they dont really work on an equal inside and outside floor.
This project is in the Austin TX area.
Cool, just down the road. So infrequent rain but heavy when it comes. Not a lot of freezing and thawing. Over near frequent poster Tomt226, matter of fact (well, as near as anything in "metro Austin" is any more <g>). Had to ask, know a Kevin who is in North Zulch, TX; formerly from the SA area.
This is my home and I am acting as the GC on this project. I can do whatever is necessary to do it properly.
That helps--almost sounded like you were a sub, and "Surprise! Whayydya mean 'How do I install the door?' ?"
I certainly agree on the plate but most door pans I see are designed for a brick mold so they dont really work on an equal inside and outside floor
I want to remember Andersen (I'm remembering right, Andersen?) makes a "flat" threshold for their doors, you just have to tell them to apply it--same as you'd need for a slab-on-grade house. In stock out at the HD on RR620? Dunno.
I'm going to vote with the "rip up the existing deck, and reset it lower" camp on this one. Austin may only get 24-26" of rain, but that max rainfall amount of 12" in 24 hours is not just an abstract number (put in a few rainwater collection systems around there, and know all too well).
Mostly, though, it's that stretch of "not door" wall I'd worry about more. Sure, you can flash that, but any flashing failure ever gets water either in the exterior wall or under your finish floor--neither good. Now, if you need a "dodge" for this, consider leaving a 1/2" gap between the inside subfloor and the outside subfloor. Flash that "both ways" and any water going towards the house, instead drops below (inconvenient, but better than in walls or the like).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Actually building in Jonestown off 1431. It is in fact an Anderson Slider. Sounds like the 1-1/8 must come up and be replaced with decking. Not what I was hoping for but reality it seems.
Thanks for the insight.
building in Jonestown off 1431.
Wow, did some work off to the west of you across the lake there in "deer country" and down south of you towards Volente, too, bit more than a decade back.
It is in fact an Anderson Slider.
Had to go look it up, you were going to need the Ramped Sill Attachement to get the sort of flush-to-flush you were looking at before. Oak or Maple on that inside trim, with the 400 series.
Sounds like the 1-1/8 must come up and be replaced with decking. Not what I was hoping for but reality it seems.
Now, I'm wondering if you could sister sloped joists to the existing cantilevers, saving you a bit of grief, if not the part with the ripping up the glued 9/8 <ugh>. Might be worth talking to the engineer about. Or not, that can depend upon the engineer <sigh>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Andersen, not Anderson.I never warrantee that sort of situation unless there is 4" of curbing rise from the membrane on deck to the threshold. I did do one where an archy required it after all pther parties signed off on warrantee.It does leak when there is a foot of slushy wet snow that they are too lazy to shovel away.But it has a four foot roof overhang protecting it too, so rain that close in is rare.Sio I vote for ripping the exterior down lower. You can sster extra framing in to account for the loss of structure.
What sort of membrane will you be using? Tile will not make a roof
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Someone else aready suggested it, but i'd install a curb. Install a couple of 2x4's (if you have the head room install three). That'll give you 4.5/6" for flashing.
That deck is pitched at least a quarter inch per foot yes?
Is there any type of overhang over the door?
Is this a freeze thaw area? If so, I'd want a 40m membrane, like a pvc, an aggressive preslope, like 3/8ths, and a drainage mat like Troba above that. Of course, a mud bed, which adds another inch to the deck. That gets the outside deck elevation awfully close to the top of the door sill, doesn't it?
I'm surmising at this point that lowering and pitching the deck is not an option at this point, so what I would do is make the door rough jamb into a curb, with a couple stacked 2x4's and run the membrane up and over that.
Regards,
Scooter
"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
The 2x12's are tied into joists for support and go straight out. In other words, there is no pitch at all. Since it is decked and glued, I was hoping to avoid ripping it up. I can create pitch when I tile in but the low threshold of a sliding door does not allow for much. The door threshold is only about 1" so I dont think this will fare well in a hard blowing rain.
This door is protected only by a 2" overhang from the roof.
1 inch threshold. How will you create a pitch? At a quarter inch per foot, which is what you need to move water, there is no room.I don't like this one bit. Depending on the rain amounts in your neck of the woods, I wouldn't give this installation more than about 5 years to fail. The typical exterior installation will have a preslope, either plywood or mortar; then a membrane; then tile, if the membrane allows you to tile directly to it, or if not, then more mortar (sloped of course) then tile. Many exterior tile installations have a drainage mat under the mortar to facilitate drainage.I'd be temped to make a deck out of it with redwood that allows the water to drain through. I don't like the idea of the swimming pool that you are creating here. Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I dont disagree with you. At 6', a 1.5" slope should be right at 1/4" per foot so that works but I still dont like only 1-1.5 " for blowing water in a heavy rain to pool up at the door.
our rain in Austin TX is rather infrequent accept for March - April time frame and when rain comes down, it comes hard!
Where we have a situation like that where there is no way to have the deck lower than the floor level, the door is put on a curb (4-1/2 to 6 inches depending on the final deck height).
Tthe roof membrane goes up and over the sill, then capping the sill with a copper pan - with interior lip and end dams. Then the end dams are counter flashed with ice and water.
I think I'd be inclined to build up the door 6" or so, and have a step inside and out.
Pitch the outside deck away from the house and allow for a scupper or roof drain. Of course I live in Canada, and have to be concerned with snow build-up.
I can't tell from the photo, but the deck looks like less than a 6' cantiliver. If it is, I would remove the subfloor from the deck and cut the joist ends down 3/4", the reinstall the subfloor. i also gives you a lip that is 3/4 lower than the wall plates so you can install flashing at the wall and the door pan.
It is more work, but what you have now is going to a lot more work when it leaks and you get interior water damage. Sometimes ya just can't make poor design work.
Bite the bullet and do it right.
Dave
It is exactly 6' cantilever. I have it engineered for load which spec in 2x12's.
so I was thinking I could put a treated 2x plate down with silicon adhesive and put the door on that. Flash it under the door to over the deck. Over that with waterproof membrane. Then tile with a 1.5" slope away from the house (leaving the drop from the step outside only about 1.5" (remaining 2x and door threshold.)
Your answer is likely the right one. I sure hate to rip off that glued 1-1/8 plywood and cut the 2x12's likely voiding any engineer responsibility for potential failure.
I've got a worse one to fix for a friend of ours. Thiers isn't a cantiliver, but the only way I am going to solve the current water leak is remove the whole 6x6 deck area and get the joist down to provide some pitch and a curb at the door and wall intersection.
The now defunct builder just nailed teated deck boards over subfloor, much like yours. Told our friends that the leak showing up in the first floor ceiling is from the electric service entrance , some 8' away and down slope from the deck. I am waiting for some decent weather , then will take the mess apart, notch and taper the joist, maybe reinforce them if my PE says to, then reassmble with a membrain and floating deck boards.
As your PE what you need to do to keep the structure in spec. It might be nothing more than bolting or screwing some steel plates to the side of the 2x12s.
Dave
I'm not a builder. However, is there any reason that you couldn't just put a drain strip right in front of the door? You could get a drain pipe under the decking then to direct the water off the end or wherever to a good location. This in addition to curbing and appropriate flashing in the door opening might keep you from having to remove the deck and cut the joists to get your quarter inch fall for drainage.
good to see origianl thinking.IMO - the answer is a strong maybe.
It would still require a lot of non-typical detailing that would be labout intensive and iffy and still require a curb.Also depends whether freeze/thaw cycles exist - I think the answer on that was negative. And I don't recall if he said what waterproofing membrane he was using.
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that would be labout intensive and iffy and still require a curb
Not just a curb, there's all that deck butting right up to the wall on either side of the door, too. So, a drain slot makes some sense, it's just as much work prying up all that exterior deck that's already glued down . . .
It's outside the box thinking, though.
The way the radar looked at lunch, txkevin is getting a very immediate "read" of how this is shedding water right now.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm gonna be a contrarian here. Our house was built with a single slab for the front stoop and entryway. Originally it leaked badly, whenever there was blowing rain, but this was mostly because the slab was very poorly done and not flat, so there was a massive gap under the threshold. Over the years I fixed it up several times, but never did a complete fix.Then, about ten years ago, we decided to replace the entire front door. While the door was out I used thinset to create a flat and reasonably level (to match the slightly cocked RO) area for the threshold. Also made a very slight curb under the hollow part of the threshold with the thinset -- less than 1/2".It has not leaked one drop since.I think the pictured situation can be made to work, without the need to tear out the decking and/or cut down the joists, and without raising the threshold above flush with the finished floor. It just takes thought and planning.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"It just takes thought and planning."And good luck
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I apologize for the picture size. Here is a 1/3 size one. Thanks again for the advice.
What I would consider (partly dependent on nature of the stock sill) is building a "dam" under the sill and running the membrane up and over that. The "dam" would sit in the (presumed) hollow area of the sill (hopefully projecting up into it a half-inch or so), so the sill could be flush with the finished floor. Might require some surgery on the stock sill, or may be impossible with that sill.
The "dam" could be a piece of wood, or a piece of metal angle -- whatever works. Some care needed to protect the membrane against sharp edges on it and the sill, of course.
Another helpful feature to add would be a detail on the railing that effectively blocked the wind in the bottom few inches (to reduce the effect of wind-blown rain). This could be a curb with scuppers or a bottom rail that extends down to within an inch or so of the finished floor. Will be (eventually) appreciated by the occupants since it will also help prevent stuff from rolling off the deck.
by the way what's the use of that membrane behind the plywood? Its useless
I saw that.It is there to make somebody feel like they have done something.
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I'm just a lowly DIY/Self GC also, but problem solving is fun, and the thought of tearing up that ply and hacking up the joists, makes me ill. And I'm used to screwing up and redoing. ;)What is the finished floor to be on the inside?How big is the room?Can you put down a 3/4" "underlayment" and set your door on another 1" curb, then you can mud or sleeper the proper slope on your exterior deck.Probably more trouble and money than it's worth, just some outside the box thinking.A medium to large guy named Alan, not an ambiguous female....
NOT that there is anything wrong with that.
>>>>>>>>by the way what's the use of that membrane behind the plywood? Its uselessProbably to make the plywood rot from the bottom up rather than the top down.http://grantlogan.net/