Second post today. I have a client who bought a house that was remodeled by a developer and water started coming through the bathroom ceiling just under a year after the sale. I determined the cause, undoubtedly, to be a leaky shower pan liner. In lieu of ripping out his stone shower I told him that the leak had been there since the get go and we could try caulking the shower. The caulk had been working for a while and the leak only started to come through after the caulk started to fail. I also told him that obvously it would not be a cure all and that it would have to maintained perhaps every six months or so. It was originally caulked with pure silicone. I was wondering if there are any super-duper caulks that might work best in this application, or whether a grout seal is recommended. Or if anyone has any alternative suggestions to solving this problem. Thanks in advance.
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It should be ripped out and redone to eliminate leaks. If you are recommending caulking it instead you are taking on quite a liability.
Ditto what the other guy said -- tile and grout won't hold water -- were never meant to.
Caulk in the corners will only slow down the water in the corners.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Third vote for a gut & redo....if you can match the stone a good tile man can make look almost like new....
Well I have to honest with you guys. I'm sure you know a gut and redo is a lot of dough. Today I am scheduled to go in and seal and caulk the shower. I explained the implications to the homeowner, who is a pretty good guy and a valauble client. We are both approaching it with the understanding that it might not work and if it does it would be a bandaid that would have do be changed fairly often. I had an associate who had this same problem and "solved it" in this way a couple of years back. Its worth a look. and will at least work while he digests his options. And ya I know, I know - GOOD LUCK - right !!! : )Thanks for all the input. And what about the super-duper caulk? I thought I'd get a couple suggestions at least. Oh well.
You got the appropriate advice. This is after all "Fine Homebuilding" and not some cheesy DIY blog. IMHO do it right or not at all.Bing
Just a few more things to consider. Silicone may be viewed as a one shot deal. Residual silicone is difficult to remove completely and will make any future efforts to recaulk even more difficult. If you're lucky, it'll just be water stains below, if not, new ceiling and eventually rotted framing to be replaced. How did you determine it's the pan and not the plumbing?
I would like to jump in here - with a very similar question. I have the same 'type' of leak. To determine where the water is coming from I did the following:1. Hose directly down the drain and let it run for an hour. No leak.2. Plug the drain and fill the shower to the top and let stand for two hours. No leak.3. Run shower - only cold water. No leak.4. Run shower - only hot. Leak.Where do I look next. Tile shower. 40+ years old. Mixing valve new 5 years ago. For three years after new valve no leaks.Thanks, Mike
Where do I look next. Tile shower. 40+ years old. Mixing valve new 5 years ago. For three years after new valve no leaks.
When they replaced the mixing valve, I assume they just cut out the old one and installed a new one. The old copper supply pipe is probably pitted and corroded and may have some pinhole leaks, or the elbow where it gets close to the mixing valve may have a small leak, or where the pipe meets the mixing valve there may be a small leak. Is there any way to open up the wall on the other side of the shower to see what's going on?
Is there any way to open up the wall on the other side of the shower to see what's going on?There is not - unless I completely destroy a wall. The shower is tile - floor, walls, ceiling. On the other side is another bath/shower combo that is also tiled. I was not there when they replaced the mix valve - to this day I have no idea how it was done but it is a new Moen.Mike
A clever plumber can remove a few tiles around the mixing valve and put it back together pretty well.
DanH's suggestions are good--try what he suggests. The fact that it only leaks when the water is running means it's probably something in the valve itself and not in the pipes.
I installed a new Moen in my shower a couple of months ago. It worked fine for a few weeks and then the faucet started dripping, and I couldn't make it stop. Went to Lowes and got a Moen repair kit for that unit. By changing out some O-rings and dabbing on some petroleum jelly I was able to stop the drip. Maybe that's worth a try?
Thanks - I'll try the repair kit. A Moen clearly should not need repair that soon - but then I do not want to replace my ceiling repeating that statement. I will try the repair and then have a plumber visit if that does not work. Thanks for all the advice.Mike
There's a possibility that the leak is in the floor pan or some such and it takes hot water to cause expansion and open the crack. But there may be a leak in the valve.What I'd do is cap the shower head and then turn on the valve, with the valve escutcheon removed. Use a flashlight to observe for water leaks in the area of the valve.Could also be a crack in one of the walls that lets water through when hot. Try taping plastic to the walls before running the shower, and see if it still leaks.Also a vague possibility that what you're seeing is condensation, as steam hits a cold wall or cold AC duct.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
that is the most sensible approach. Now open the wall (not the tiled one) replace the mixing valve or handle set. Use plastic piping and crimp
Mike,
Before you completely abandon the "leak finding" process. You said the mixing valve was replaced ~5 years ago in a 40+ YO house.
When the mixing valve was installed did they perhaps cover the old faucet holes etc with a big cover plate? Perhaps the caulk has let go on the top edge of the cover plate?
Test theory by diverting water from the shower onto the "mixing valve wall" like would happen when the shower was occupied?
Just a thought.
Good luck!
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Jim, I looked and while they covered the 'old' feeder tube holes with the cover plate that plate is not caulked in anyway. Its just loose and the holes remain open to the interior wall. Thanks for the suggestion. I caulked well and now will again begin to use the shower and see where I stand. One suggestion was to remove the mixer valve from the opposite wall - it too is tiled since it is a shower/tub combo. Builders should know better than to construct a home in that fashion - but then again it was probably acceptable practice 40 years ago?My big decision is what to do with the shower itself after I cure the leak. Its a total tile shower, including the ceiling. But the tile is of course 40 years old. It is unattractive to say the least - color is akin to 'baby poop' brown. I will sell this house in @ 2 years - kids all gone - any suggestions short of a total pricy redo?Mike
For a cheap redo on the shower, consider one of the services that applies "skins" to them.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan, never heard of that - is it applied right over the existing tile?
Basically either melamine or some sort of thermoplastic sheet. Glued to the existing walls. They can install at the same time as a tub liner -- most standard tub styles they have molded liners for. If a shower pan is a standard size they can even install a molded plastic pan over the existing (though obviously the options here are more limited).Several different types and styles and vendors (for the wall lining material), some that are DIY, some that are deservedly pro-only, some that any idiot can do but only franchised idiots are allowed to do. The tub liners are pretty much franchise-only.One style of wall liner I remember seeing at Menards awhile back -- basically a roll of plastic that will bend about like linoleum. Since it will do about a 2" radius you can use a single piece to line a shower, with no seams.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I opened it up and looked at the drain while I ran the shower. I saw no leak in the drain.
If it was at the drain it would be coming through at the drain. If it was in the pressured line it would be leaking all the time. There was a body spray on that side, not being a plumber I considered that it may be possible that it was leaking through the diverter somewhere in the short distance from the diverter to the faucet. So I ran a hose up from the outside. I had just scraped out the bulk of the caulking and bam the water came right through. I just got back from there. i took a good while removing the residual caulking. I'll see what happens tomorrow. It may be up to replacing the liner. Which will probably involve a bunch of BS with the original developer. Or maybe not the client seems like a conscientious enough guy. Its just a shame. The caulk was holding for a good while and as it failed the leak started, at least become evident. It could have been leaking the whole time.
I'm trying to think if there's any way it might not be the pan. It's vaguely possible it's a leak around the drain fitting, and maybe could be fixed from below. Also possible that the sub-drain (don't know what the "official" term is) below the finished surface is clogged, causing what would be a very minor leak to be more severe.I'm assuming you've eliminated the possibility of leaks in the valve and shower head, and also eliminated the possibility of leaks through the valve escutcheon.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Although I agree with the general tone of the posters, in that it is better to replace the leak, I must add my two cents about caulk.
SILICONE IS A HORRIBLE CAULK! It really is. Yes, the bead of caulk is durable. But it has lousy adhesion. Almost any error in surface preparation can cause a lack of adhesion. In my previous life as a materials engineer I had to work with this material because of the weatherability. But for best adhesion you need to use primer, after having perfectly cleaned the surface.
That said, there are two types of silicone caulk. The original stuff gives off vinegar smell (Acetic Acid). A later version gives off a sweet smell. The two differ greatly in adhesion, the newer stuff being better (but still not good.
So, what to use. The best for long-term adhesion is a good grade of butyl caulk. The cheap ones have too much filler in them to be any use, but the better ones have enough butyl in them. If you want, I can expand on why butyl works, but enough for this posting.
I'm interested in what you think about polyurethane caulks. They're what I usually use in more demanding situations these days, and they seem a lot more "sticky" than silicone caulks.
Never used butyl, except maybe for roof flashing- what brand would I be looking for?
Also, I sometimes use silicone on interior work because it has less adhesion- it can be very tricky to not make a mess with PU caulk in some situations.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
As to the polyurethane (PU) sealants, they are really good. And indeed, I have used polyurethane adhesives with great luck. The down side to PU is moisture at the time of application. Sometimes it can cause a bubbling that could be a problem/nuisance.
(CHEMISTRY WARNING! Skip these next few paragraphs if your eyes glaze over) Urethanes are a type of polymer called an "A-B" type. That means that you must use two materials to join, as they don't join together. The one component uses a material called isocyanate. It reacts with another polymer containing a hydroxyl group, abbreviated "-OH".
Incidentally, don't let anybody confuse an isocyanate with cyanides, as it ain't true. During cure no cyanides are formed.
The Isocyanate reacts with the hydroxyl group at the end of the other molecule. But, isocyanates react with water; after all, water has a hydroxyl gropu in it. During this reaction, a gas is produced. And in fact, that is one way of forming a PU foam: You use an excess of isocyanate and react it with a measured amount of water. The other way is called frothing: You add a gas and whip it up while it cures.
But, the PU caulks have pretty well eliminated this problem and work very well in most cases. (And before someone else mentions it, Gorilla Glue uses PU and requires water to perform its magic. This is some other magic chemistry that requires even more discussion.)
Now, as to butyl. Butyl caulks DO NOT CURE UP. The butyl is mixed in with a bit of solvent to keep it soft, plus some filler to bulk it up and make it gunnable. When the solvent evaporates, the thick mixture remains. And this is why it works so well. It does not depend on adhesion only during the cure. Instead it wets the surface continually, and if it is disturbed, it can reflow to reseal the surface.
Now what brand to buy? Consider this: Butyl resin costs more than filler. So buy the more pricey brands. When you use them, they will be more flowable/sticky. You will know them when you see them.
Gutter Sealant? Roofing Sealant? Window Sealant? Except for the coloring, they are all the same.