Been working for him for a long time. Probably 10-12 years. They had 2 supers. Couple years ago got down to 1. Higher end homes. Semi custom if that is possible. Low 1,000,000’s.
Tell me if I did the right thing.
Our driver goes in on an unscheduled day. Looking to top off his load. Extra service, no extra charge. Garage door is about 1 foot up. Driver pulls up on the door. Painter has doors lined up curing after painting. Doors fall over. Our super calls the building super. Here is what we did. Etc. Did not try to hide anything.
What would you expect? A backcharge? All of it? Partial?
We got our check last month with $1200 backcharge. This month another $400 light. No call from the super or Builder.
So I see the super today and explain that I think the painter has at least equal culpabiliity here. Our driver should have looked in the man door instead of pulling up the big door. The painter should have positioned his doors so that they would not fall over as the big door goes up.
He thought we were 100% responsible. So our last day is day prior to Turkey Day.
Am I wrong?
Replies
I think you are right. In fact---I don't see how you are responsible at all
Leaning something against a door---is pretty short sighted------------
it's reasonable to assume that somebody is gonna open a door----which your driver did.
It would NOT be reasonable for your driver to anticipate that a painter had leaned a bunch of interior doors up against an overhead garage door---who besides this painter would be short sighted enough to do something like that?????
I don't even see why you driver should have looked in the man door.
I am guessing the contractor is taking it out of YOUR hide---'cause there is some reason he can't take it out of the painters.
Best wishes,Stephen
I'd be gone, too. It was a dopey move on the painter's part, but, in my mind, the real responsibility should be on the super. An unfortunate accident, to say the least. "I am the master of low expectations." Georgie Boy, aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003
I'm with Stephen.
I do not think it your fault the doors were leaned against the garage door, and the painter should have posted a sign stating DO NOT OPEN DOOR.
If I were in your shoes I would have probably offered half or something to that effect to make ammends.
The guy shorting your check with out even talking to you about it is bogus. He needs to grow a set of stones and make a phone call to settle something such as this.
If I were you I wouldn't bother working the next week for him, what do you think the odd's of getting paid are if he has already screwed you, no sense doing more work for free...
You might have a legit claim to take him to small claims court but I'm not a lawyer.
The guy shorting your check with out even talking to you about it is bogus. He needs to grow a set of stones and make a phone call to settle something such as this.
Bingo baby.
And FWIW, the painter was a jackazz. That's something I'd expect to see in a Three Stooges movie. Now if one of those doors had fallen when the dude opened the door and cracked his head open, I have to wonder who the insurance companies would find to be at fault? My guess would be the painter, followed shortly thereafter by the GC. View Image
I wouldn't sit still for it. I'd be right there in his face pointing out how idiotic his painter was even if it were his own son. No way is your driver responsible for a dime's worth of damage.
mutter, mutter, mutter, f*%#^!ng painters!
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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"mutter, mutter, mutter, f*%#^!ng painters!"Has SHG hijacked Piffins ID?
I always thought it was
"mutter, mutter, mutter, f*%#^!ng plumbers!"
"mutter, mutter, mutter, f*%#^!ng plumbers!"
nope....
"mutter, mutter, mutter, f*%#^!ng painters!"
plumbing pays too well...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Right
In most places you need a license to be a plumber.
but you only need a pulse to be a painter...
Now if the CIA, and the IRS, and the FCC,Found out that J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI owned stock in AT&T,and the UAW, and the BNO, and the AFL and CIO, and the ICC,and the BVDs, and the LSU and UCLA, and the OEO, and the KKK, and the PTA and the L&N, and the UPI and IBM, aww BS Name that tune...
what it is. The painter fault but he not taking no ####### off the GC so he back charge the builder, builder said NO so the painter slap a lien on the house, He not backing down. The builder needs the painter to finish this and all the other houses so to save faith, the builder charges clean up. which are a dime a dozen. the clean up need these jobs, the painter doesnt.Only way out. Put a lien on the house.
Edited 11/15/2006 7:38 am by brownbagg
but you only need a pulse to be a painter...
In my unfortunate experiencing with painters I think they also need a 12 pack every morning for the crew and a pint of Jack for the crew boss, a couple of rolled joints to get them thru lunch seems to also be a part of their "equipment". It must be something in all the chemicals they are exposed on a daily basis.
I work with two painting contractors who are top notch. True craftsmen. Just thought I'd chime in with that.
there is always an exception to any rule...
consider yerself lucky!!!
Now if the CIA, and the IRS, and the FCC,Found out that J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI owned stock in AT&T,and the UAW, and the BNO, and the AFL and CIO, and the ICC,and the BVDs, and the LSU and UCLA, and the OEO, and the KKK, and the PTA and the L&N, and the UPI and IBM, aww BS Name that tune...
Construction sites are areas that aren't yet set up to normal living standards. All participants (especially experienced hands) should be aware of the abnormal elements that they may encounter and be extra cautious, inquiring and diligently observant when on a jobsite and entering work areas.
Sounds like another discussion of contractor's vs the subs. Ever noticed how subs use the words "I", "me", and "we" a lot... 90% of them think the job revolves around himself. The thing is 9 out of 10 times these guys don't have the big picture of what is going on. Why? - because it's not their job - so it's fully understanbable. They know their part of the job, hopefully do it well and that is it.
Hate to say it, but although I have a good debris removal & clean-up sub and a good painter, the painter would be harder to replace. Not that I would choose the painter over the debris removal guy, but if the debris removal guy "let me go" he would be replaced before the conversation was over. The wonders of cell phones! I would be polite enough not to laugh in his face though.
Sounds like another discussion of contractor's vs the subs. Ever noticed how subs use the words "I", "me", and "we" a lot... 90% of them think the job revolves around himself. The thing is 9 out of 10 times these guys don't have the big picture of what is going on. Why? - because it's not their job - so it's fully understanbable. They know their part of the job, hopefully do it well and that is it.
It really should not be "I me and we" but us. All subcontractors, the builder and HO working together. I work to find subs that are not all about themselves and selfish, but cooperate, are considerate of others and pay attention to the entire scope of work. That is a good reason why it has taken me a long time to develope good subs. All of my subs have a full set of plans and specs. I consider them to be responsible for understanding the plans and specs, and how their part relates to others. There are many areas where responsibilities overlap.
There has been many articles and discussions, in the past few years, in NAHB publications about this cooperative effort and the beneficial rewards it contains for all involved.
Edited 11/17/2006 8:29 am ET by txlandlord
"unscheduled day"
you broke it. you bought it.
who are you, suppier, sub etc. was it a payroll check or company work check. If you was sub, I lien that house so quick. I dont think you ought to pay anything and the painter should redo free. It was 100% painter fault.
bb
We are subs. Scrap out (ie:clean up) construction sites. Something like 2500 homes last year.
We will finish up with our head held high. I'm just sad that after 10-12 years it has to end like this. I thought 50-50 was fair. Pizzed me off that the painter had $150 of that backcharge.
I'll just go show this superintendent all your comments. That will get me my money. LOL
No going back though.
I'm with the others. I would file a small claims asap. Having the sherif serve a court summons is often enough to call their bluff and get the check.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I've got to go with everyone else. The door should have at least ben locked.
Pardon my fat fingers.
http://www.hay98.com/
So you got a $1200 charge for the $150 worth of work the painter did to fix the damaged painted doors. Thats a major rip off!!
Ask for a break down!
put a lien on the house
nigel
the doors were damaged. Needed some replaced. And hardware changed. He sent bills for all of it. but the one for the painter really got me. and the total is approaching $1600
We'll just mark this up in our 1%- 1.5% for bad debt column.
after so many years it makes me mad. like I should have charged for a bunch of extras that we did for this superintendent.
No good deed goes unpunished! =)"...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
often I spray things in my garage then lean them up against the garage door but not before I hit the lockout button on the opener. could you imagine trying to blame my wife for opening the door?
sounds like the painter and the GC are in bed together and yer gettin the screw job
I have to disagree with most of the responses, at least partially.
Your driver shows up unannounced and proceeds to open a door that he could have seen (reasonably) had doors lined up against it. The painter is a bone head, but your guy still caused the doors to fall. I think this fact makes you responsible for a portion of the bill.
I do agree with the fact that the company who is backcharging has no tact or professional sense. They should have informed you at the very least, and there is no way that you are responsible for 90% of the damage.
The painter needs to get spanked for his lack of foresight. The super needs to get spanked for not knowing how to maintain a mutually beneficial relationship.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Sorry guys, I agree with Jon Blakemore.
Your driver shows up unannounced and proceeds to open a door that he could have seen (reasonably) had doors lined up against it. The painter is a bone head, but your guy still caused the doors to fall. I think this fact makes you responsible for a portion of the bill.
Construction sites are areas that aren't yet set up to normal living standards. All participants should be aware of the abnormal elements that they may encounter and be extra cautious when on a jobsite and entering work areas.
I am a custom builder, I think I would have arranged a meeting with you and the painter to discuss details, hoping to arrive at a fair solution for all and not lose a good sub / clean-up man.
The back charges seem too high.
Of course, skip555 has an interesting idea: Return $1,600.00 worth of scrap to the jobsite.
Edited 11/15/2006 8:52 am ET by txlandlord
I dont agree Jon.
The painter shouldn't lean his doors against surfaces that open. He has the responsibiltiy to lock the door to prevent this sort of "accident" and also to alert those that might have to open that door. The paiinter chose this hazardous surface for his convenience but failed to do his part to prevent situation that probably would occur.
Scarpr, I don't think I'd burn a 12 year relationship for something that could be submitted to an insurance agency for re-imbursement. You do have insurance don't you? I wouldn't be too happy about the company arbitrarily allocating 100% of the damage to me, but I wouldn't just walk away without some serious negotiations.
When you submit your arguments for negotiation, put all of your major points in writing. This forces the oompany to point by point think about the entire situation. In the end, if the company can't come around, I'd take this particular claim to court since you will be burning a bridge anyways.
blue
He (the painter) has the responsibiltiy to lock the door....
I doubt the painter on the job has the keys to the garage door. The GC should. Was he told that the door would need to remain closed that day?...and then not in fact lock it?
...and also to alert those that might have to open that door.
Do you know that he didn't?
Scraprs' driver showed up admittedly unanounced. Perhaps he was the only one there that day that didn't know not to open the door.
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"I doubt the painter on the job has the keys to the garage door. "What bearing does that have on this? The painter and the doors were inside. When have you ever seen anyone lock a garage door with keys from the inside? Matter of fact, I have never seen anyone use a key to lock a gaarage door. The bolt is thrown from inside.
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What bearing does that have on this?
I was responding to whomever suggested that the garage door should have been locked.
The bolt is thrown from inside.
And unless locked, easily opened from the outside.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
I see your point, but we're talking about the garage door. It's not the main entry door to the house. Most people walk through the front door, not the garage door.Secondly, this is construction and things do go wrong. Even if the painter had set the door agains the front door of the house, I think that Scrapr still has a shred of liability just for the fact that his guy did it. Remember that, except for Scrapr showing up unannounced, this accident would probably have never happened.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I also dont see the damage being as high unless the painter bill at billable rate. Instead of the $40 it take to repair , he harging the $75 a hour with 4 hour minimum, riding the clock time.
Most people walk through the front door when there's no lock box on it. Even in high priced areas, people go in to vandalize and steal materials.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Most people walk through the front door, not the garage door."Most trash would be in the garage and mnopst trash pick up would be through the garage door
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does'nt matter if he's unannounced or not. if I go to a job site and I have business to take care of in the garage and the garage door is partially open, what reasonable person is going to expect me to walk around to the front door?
most garage doors can be locked in several open positions. the painter's a friggin idiot
what reasonable person is going to expect me to walk around to the front door?
I'd require you to.
All vistors are to announce themselves to me (as GC) before entering my jobsite.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
OK, just make that known before the accident happens
lets say you were watching over the job with your eagle eye. You were'nt aware of what the painter was doing or that there was a newcomer to the sight? Sounds like you were'nt doing your job if you did'nt know what was transpiring on your jobsite. Maybe you should accept a higher percentage of the blame?
Edited 11/15/2006 8:13 pm ET by maverick
Eggzactly what I've been saying throughout this thread.
The GC certainly bares some responsibility for the accident.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
"All vistors are to announce themselves to me (as GC) before entering my jobsite."That doesn't make sense in this sort of situation. You are saying that you want a guy whose job is trash pickup, probably with filthy pants and shoes, to walk in the front door and onto finished floors before beginning to do his job?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Being the GC, and being responsible for virtually everything that happens on a jobsite...accidents, theft, damage, etc.......I want to be made aware of anyone entering my jobsite. Most especially someone making an unexpected visit.
Too dirty to enter the home....ring the bell.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
doesn't matter if he's unannounced or not. if I go to a job site and I have business to take care of in the garage and the garage door is partially open, what reasonable person is going to expect me to walk around to the front door?
I don't think you should walk around, but if the door is partially open a quick peek would not hurt.
Imagine you're a garage door installer and you're standing 5' up on an step ladder adjusting the torsion spring on a door and the debris guy comes in throwing the door open, knocking you off of your ladder.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, there are a lot of possible accidents that could happen in the construction world. Knocking a garage guy over certainly is onthe list. Usually though, the garage guy has a work truck and tools and garage door debris spread out all over the drive.
I have walked up to dozens of garage doors partially open. I don't bend over and peek. I just pull them open and walk through. I've successfully done this for thirty years and wouldn't think to do anything different.
The painter could have placed a simple vise grip on the tracks to prevent the door from moving. The painter placed his doors in a precarious position on an implement that is designed to be opened. I think a judge would find that the painter was careless. Doors are meant to be opened. When a painter decides to booby trap a door, which is meant to be opened, accidents will happen. It's not a question of if, but of when. If the painter does not bear responsibility for his actions, he will certainly continue to booby trap the garage doors in the future.
blue
Blue,I'm not defending the painter, there is certainly a long list of things he could have done to avoid this situation in the first place. I'm just saying that, on my job, Scrapr would be partially liable, but definetely to the tune of $1,600 of the $1,750 in damage.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
jon,
I commend you for trying to be fair------but in fact you are WAAAAAAY wrong on this.
since when --is opening a door--- even REMOTELY negligent ?
doors are MEANT to be open--in fact the sole reason they exist---is to be opened !
If opening a door is going to endanger someone or something----- then that door has to be rendered temporarily in-operable. responsibility lies with the person who failed to do this.
most garage doors have a simple latch to do this----- and I have also used a simple Cclamp to accomplish the same thing.
BTW---- around here Garage door service people all travel with well marked and HIGHLY identifiable work vans.
I am not very bright----but apparently that painter is even dumber than this roofer. LOL,
stephen
doors are MEANT to be open--in fact the sole reason they exist---is to be opened !
Not to pick nits with you....but I would suggest it is just the opposite. The sole reason doors exist is to be closed. If not...than why bother putting a door in an opening to begin with?
Not really here nor there....just thought I'd mention it. LOL
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
nonsense JDRHI,
doors exist to be opened
If they aren't going to be opened---then there is no need for 'em.
what do you call a door that CAN'T be opened ?---probably a wall--!
If a door was NEVER going to be opened----why on earth frame in a opening and fill it with a door---why cut a hole in a wall that's never gonna be used ?
for a carpenter---you have pretty poor reasoning skills LOL.
Stephen.
I do hope you're joking. Ya gotta be if this is what you call reasoning.
If they aren't going to be opened---then there is no need for 'em.
Obviously it is, if they aren't going to be closed...then there is no need for them.
In which case it would remain a trimmed opening.
The ONLY reason to hang a door within a trimmed opening, would be to CLOSE it.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
Stephen,No doubt that the garage door should have been secured, or the painter should have chosen a better location. But here's the thing- the debris guys were the ones who directly caused the damage. The painted obviously had a part to play, but all parties still have a part in the equation.I guess maybe I do try too hard to be fair, but I look at this no differently from other backcharge situations. If my electrician forgets to really study the plans on the addition he's bid on, and his final charges end up being 70% higher (this recently happened), I will work with him on it. Could I reasonably say "tough, you bid it, look more carefully next time"? Sure I could. But, IMHO, that kind of interaction does not foster a profitable long term relationship between two parties.Maybe my glasses are too rosy, but I like to try to have a mutually beneficial relationship with all the "stakeholders". I just think it works out better in the long run.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
jon,
the situation with the electrician has NOTHING to do with this---you are comparing apples with oranges.
sure the clean-up guys directly commited the damage-------but ONLY because the painter was clearly negligent.
If you are driving down the street, minding your own business------and a drunk steps off the curb in front of you----or a kid jumps into the street---and you hit 'em--- you "caused the damage"----but you are unlikely to be liable.
clean-up guy used a door------as doors are intended to be used. He is no more liable for this than if I flush a toilet and a leak in a pipe 3 floors down damages a ceiling in an apartment below.
no WAY this can remotely be considered a " mutually benificial relationship" for the trash hauler---- he is entirely getting screwed for the simple reason that the painter is an absolute idiot.
now----if the painter was dumb enough to lean the doors up against the OUTSIDE of the garage door---ya might have a point------right up untill a plumber or somebody working in the house opens the garage door from the inside.
Stephen
Another issue. If the driver opened the garage door and the painted doors fell on him and injured him, my guess is that the painter would be liable for damages. If he argued that the driver shouldn't even be there, the driver could argue that the door should have been locked if he did not want it opened.
I say keep the backcharge in your back pocket.
Just a hypothetical Jon....
What if the painter had a step ladder leaning against the doors and was on it painting? Say the door was then opened by the scrap guy and the painter fell and got hurt. Would you think the painter was a knucklehead for working in that manner without thinking about all the potential for disaster? Or would the scrap guy still be at fault?
I think you're sharp enough to think that the painter was acting like a big dummy in that hypothetical, no? But really the only difference is that in my situation that painter got damaged where in the actual one, the doors got damaged.
You coming around yet? ;)View Image
What you guys are ALL leaving out of the mix, is the very real possibility that the painter told everyone on the jobsite, or told the GC to tell eveyone on the jobsite that he needed the entire garage to spread his doors out while they dried, and that the garage was off limits for the day.
Scraprs' guy came along unexpectedly....didn't make his presence known....and opened the door to a room that was off limits for the day.
Sure.....its possible that the painter was just an idiot who leaned doors against an operable garage door without telling anyone. But considering the crews/subs that I have surrounded myself with, we all work together and let one another know when one of us will need an area kept clear for us on a specific day.
Happens all the time on jobsites...."hey guys...don't use the slop sink, I've got the waste disconnected."......"Fellas, keep outta the mudroom today until the grout sets up."...."Hey cheif...make sure no one goes in the garage today...I've got wet doors all over the place."
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
"Happens all the time on jobsites...."hey guys...don't use the slop sink, I've got the waste disconnected."......"Fellas, keep outta the mudroom today until the grout sets up."...."Hey cheif...make sure no one goes in the garage today...I've got wet doors all over the place.""But is not near enough.In general too much possiblility of someone coming along that did not get the message.Needs to flag it or sign it of block it off.
I didn't say it was enough to safeguard against any possible occurance....just that its a very real possibility....and that would make it enough for all to share in blame.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
What you guys are ALL leaving out of the mix, is the very real possibility that the painter told everyone on the jobsite...
Apparently he missed one, huh?View Image
let one another know when one of us will need an area kept clear
That is easily done with a very large sign. The painter could not possibly alert every potential visitor to that area. A lumber delivery driver might drive into the sub with a load of lumber and want directions to a job. Drivers are trained to use the garages as entry points because most builders don't want all kinds of people traipsing through their finished foyers. On a construction job, it is very, very, very common to use the garage as the main entrance. Without a very large warning sign "
Wet Paint: do not open the door!"
it is virtually assured that a bad situation would occur.
If I was the builder or gc, I would not find fault with anyone that opened the door unless there was a very large and obvious warning sign that was ignored.
Case dismissed. I find that the painter should bear full responsibility.
blue
We could go round and round for days here....but it will all just be speculation on both our parts.
Neither of us has the facts.
And all I was doing was offering some alternative scenarios for what may have in fact occured. I don't know that they did, anymore than you don't know that they didn't.
As the GC of a project, I never leave the responsability of protecting the work of the various subs to the individual sub. I'm the one in charge of the project. I take the reigns.
If a plumber has the bathroom fixtures delivered to the jobsite, I don't leave it to him to find a place that they won't be damaged before they're installed. I could......as someone else mentioned (Matt?)...they are his materials, thus his responsability. But if I do....and they get damaged.....no matter who pays for the replacements...it will be my project that is put on hold until replacements arrive. I'll also have to be the one to mediate between the plumber and the sub that damaged the fixtures who was at fault.
So....if the scenario being discussed in this thread occured on my job....I'd expect to share in the responsability.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
Something else comes to mind." Garage door is about 1 foot up. Driver pulls up on the door."That was in the orginal message. And leaning agains that open door is doors with wet paint.What kind of quality painter allows open doors where dust could be blow in without reguard to what any person does.
>>>>>>>>>>What if the painter had a step ladder leaning against the doors and was on it painting? Then he's an idiot. If he's inside the garage doing anything near the door he could either pull the safety on the door to track connection or unplug the opener. Situations like this are why openers have the safety release and are not hardwired. The painter is totally at fault in this situation. He had two ways to protect himself from this catastrophy and he choose to ignore them both.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
Then he's an idiot
That was my point too Grant. Not sure if you misunderstood my intent or not.View Image
yes I did - sorry.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
Listen, I don't believe that I ever defened the painter's actions. I certainly have no intention to. The point that keeps coming to my mind is that construction sites are inherently dangerous places, with many things not as they "should" be (stairwells open, electric wires exposed, etc.).For this reason, I believe that Scrapr is partially liable, but certainly not completely liable.To me this seems similar to many other situations you may encounter on a job. Let's say you're installing windows, and you lean a window to be installed against the house at 11:55. Lunch break comes and goes, and you return to see that the roofer, who was working on the opposite side of the house when you left the window there, had thrown some debris over the edge of the roof and there is no a small crack in the top sash. Who is responsible? You for leaving the window in a vulnerable location? The roofer for throwing debris down where he can't/hasn't seen? I think the answer lies somewhere between.So, I guess no, I'm not coming around yet. In fact, now I'm waiting for YOU to come around to my side of things <g>
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
If windows get delivered before the roofing is installed then I won't take responsibility for them until the roof is done. Nor will I let my guys take them out of the house and begin installing them...... all for that very reason.
So, you see, you will have a hard time using me for a hypothetical seeing as I never make any mistakes myself. My jobsites are perfectly orchestrated demonstrations of artistic craftsmanship and where no stone goes unturned in my relentless pursuit of contracting nirvana.
You buying any of this? <G>
Well..... it sounded good anyway.View Image
You realize that you now must repost to me....anything.....just to clear the "with unread messages to me" file.
Please?
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
got it
Thanks...you da man!
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
You can see through a garage door to know if something is leaned on the other side of it?I goota put you to work reading tea leaves and commodities futures for me!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You can see through a garage door to know if something is leaned on the other side of it?
I goota put you to work reading tea leaves and commodities futures for me!
Scrapr has said repeatedly that the door was partially open. Send me your tea leaves, I'll cut you a good deal on the first reading.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'd have spoken to the builder & tried to get the back-charge split 50-50 with the painter.
Either way I'd slide my rate up very slightly to cover the $'s over a year or so...
Its just business!
Brooks
since he wasn't satisfied you could return 1600 worth of scrap to a few finished homes
I'm thinkin' there oughtta be a happy medium in there.
You shouldn't be held 100% accountable.....but neither should the painter.
But hey.....what about the GC? Isn't it his job to oversee jobsite conditions?
The painter should have had more sense then to lean anything against an operable door.....BUUUUUUT....on any jobsite there is often less room to work than one would wish for. He should have gone out of his way to keep anyone form opening the garage door. Doesn't sound like he did.
The driver, knowing he was not expected, should have had the common curtousy to make his presence known. A simple "hey...I'm going to be in the driveway for about a half an hour, is that OK?".
And the GC. I'm assuming that he was aware that doors were to be painted at this stage of the project. He needs to make accomodations to ensure that the doors have a safe place to sit while they dry. The painter could have placed them elsewhere. But he doesn't know if the flooring guys are coming by to do a sanding....or if the plumber will be making final connections..etc. Just about anyone could have inadvertenly damaged the doors.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
But what if a low laborer open the door, or the realitor, or even the county inspector, who would he back charge then.
You're making it sound as though this were the main entrance to the house (maybe it was......I don't know).
There are times on jobsites when what we take for granted, cannot be.
Do we know that the painter and or GC hadn't made everyone else on the jobsite that day aware that the garage doors were not to be opened?
His guy did show up unannounced.....and used an entrance other than the main.
Not saying it was all his fault....only that he shares responibilty with others.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
I agree with your comments entirely - a combination of elements making up the problem. I would feel that each should share equally in the cost to about 1/3 each.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
I think that the obvious potential for disaster was foreseeable by the boobs who set that booby trap.
Who would you find a fault? The boob who set the inadvertent trap, or the innocent victim who fell in it?
Educations are not free. If you can’t decide who is liable for this first lesson, then split it 3 ways between the GC, Painter, and the Scraper. Next time it’s the painter’s ball of wax.
“The first time you make a mistake, that’s stupidity, the second time you make the same mistake, that’s ignorance, the third time,"....
"You’re Fired!â€
But the GC not going to split the damage. The painter getting paid at regular hours not damage and the gc withholding money. so the low man on the totel pole getting the blame. I would of never told the guy. no I wasnt there, him being honest cost him almost $2000, I would lien and then sue the GC. If it not in the contract he cant hold back.If he tried this with the site contractor his house would of been a 100 feet from the slab, but clean up has to eat it, I would sue.
Edited 11/15/2006 3:40 pm by brownbagg
IF the painter had a clue, he wouldn't have leaned the painted doors on anything that could have damaged them. There are metal clips that can be nailed into the top edge specifically for standing pairs (or more) of doors up for painting. The painter should have put up a sign and the GC should have been the last one off of the site on the last work day. Leaving doors open is just asking for trouble.
This could be an insurance claim but I don't think you should be the sole bearer of the responsibility.
Is the painter a relative of the GC?
Hi all
Not trying to dodge any responsibility. Our superintendent called right away to the site superintendent. Told him what happened. The door was up about a foot to let the doors dry a bit faster. That should have been our drivers clue to peek under or use the side man door. I think it should be split 50-50. Painter and us.
For whatever reason the Building super is protecting the painter. Probably because he works closer with the painter than us. We show up on our days (mostly,lol) and do our thing. He is interacting almost daily with the painter and his crew. Maybe the builder should find a new painter though. As we talked the Building super was blue taping paint oopsies. There were at least 50 in the front entry.
But my reason for dropping the account is the Building super not looking out for us. He needs to apportion fairly job site disputes. If he cannot then it is time for us to leave. If he is looking out for "friends" then we need to move on. It's basically integrity or lack thereof.
And the claim is too small for insurance. I'll just add it to our 1-1.5% for uncollectibles. $1600 is less than .01% of revenues. We'll hold our heads high as we exit. He can find someone else.
have you thought about going over the site supers head?
Maybe someone in the front office can help
Portland, Oregon must be booming.
I will assume that your company does quality and timely work. If walking away from this company and not making waves about the back charges is not going to hurt the bottom line, then do it and don't burn any bridges. Apologize for the mistake, and move on.
If the GC can't find another company to do the quality of work that you have been doing, they will return. If and when they do, just make sure that there are procedures in place so that all parties, i.e. GC, subs, your workers, know how to access each project, what your timetables are, that you will notify GC which days you will be there, that there will be a 24 hour notice if there are any changes in schedule, etc.
Also list liabilities if any of the above requirements are not followed, relieving yourselves of liability and putting it squarely on the GC.
Just don't allow yourself to be in this position again.
Bryan Klakamp"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
Apologize for the mistake, and move on.I still dont believe it was his fault. I say walk away and take the contractor to court, apply a lien too.
I'll clarify.
I don't think it was his mistake either. I'm just saying leave on a positive note.
Next time, cover yourself.
If he makes waves, and the GC/owner has any connections, it could prove disastrous to future business.
Even though it is not all their mistake, I'm just thinking about the future.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio
truely wise advice
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Why wait till then, he will probly find someone elses problem to charge you for.
nailerman
If you can't do it right, then learn how to do it better.
Here is another way to look at it.
Maybe the contractor was letting you go via the back charge.
IMO, the only fault of the contractor was that he (or his super) didn't effectively mediate the situation. Rule 1 of a backcharge is having a prior discussion, and if they have been around for some time, it's hard to imagine that they (the GC) don't know this. Sounds like maybe he was sending your company a message. As far as the comments above that the GC should have been in control of the actual situation that caused the incident - that's ridiculous. Pure hindsight.
This whole deal comes under the s$!t happens accounting category. If it were me, I'd say fair would be that painter provides the extra labor, GC supplies the needed materials that the painter did not supply (some of the doors?) and the company who "opened the garage door" picks up the bill for half of all of that.
well most of the time, they is left over material to repair, painters are goofing off anyway , so it would be free instead of $1200On punch list, people bump the walls, little accident, they dont charge premium rate to repair, its part of contruction. something my boss cannot understand "#### happens"
As far as the comments above that the GC should have been in control of the actual situation that caused the incident - that's ridiculous. Pure hindsight.
GC is responsible for site conditions....whether its a painter needing a place to allow doors to dry......keeping feet off newly tiled/finished floors....a trim carpenter needing a safe place to store materials....etc., etc. Its only hindsight to those who don't take such precautions.
I'm not suggesting that this incident falls solely on his shoulders....only that he shares a portion of the responsibility.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
Maybe I'm a little thick headed but tell me again why the GC is responsible and what should have been done by the GC to prevent this?
Also, you say: >> whether its a painter needing a place to allow doors to dry << Removing doors and painitng them in the garage is a very common practice in new construction and is done for the painter's convenience. I see nothing wrong with it. OTOH, when the painter removes the doors it is his responsibility to get them painted and safely reinstalled. If the screws or hinge pins get lost, is that the GC's responsibility since he should safeguarded against the loss?
>> a trim carpenter needing a safe place to store materials << if the trim carpenter is supplying materials, and he leaves them on site, and they get stolen or damaged, it's his problem. A sub who supplies materials owns them until they are installed - that is one of the advantages to a turn key arrangement (form the GC's perspective) - be it more expensive to the GC. If the GC supplies materials, they are his responsibility. BTW - I use molding racks - put in place by the supplier. If you are talking about tools, they are solely the owner's responsibility. Several times I have had subs leave long and expensive extension ladders outside on site for a number of days only to have them stolen. My reaction? "Sorry that happened."
Maybe I'm a little thick headed but tell me again why the GC is responsible and what should have been done by the GC to prevent this?
I don't know that he is directly responsible....everyone was jumping in with comments to the effect that it is all the painters fault...without having any of the facts.
I'm only suggesting the very real possibility that the painter made the GC aware of the fact that he needed a safe place to allow his doors to dry and the GC told him to use the garage, and that he would make sure that no one went in there that day.
Making sure that each of the various trades needs are met is the GCs responsibility.
Floor guy tells me that he's putting a coat of poly on the living room floor, its my job to make sure no one goes in there. Someone unexpected shows up and walks on the floor, I share the responsibility.
If the screws or hinge pins get lost, is that the GC's responsibility since he should safeguarded against the loss?
Only if the GC told the painter to leave the hardware somewhere in particular and than didn't follow through in making sure they didn't get tossed. As he may have done with the doors when asked where to allow them to dry.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
If you want to get nasty about the backcharge, you can always bring up the WDMA brochure entitled "How to Store, Handle, Finish, Install, and Maintain Wood Doors". It says that the doors should be stored, sanded, and finished in a horizontal position--not leaning against anything. We all know that this is never followed, but that clause has gotten many a door manufacturer out of a warranty issue.
The fact that your driver showed up on his own with no forewarning is a tough issue for you to deal with. Sometimes we have to take our lumps and walk away.
"Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
You're right to walk whether or not you have any responsibility. Contractor is arbitrarily assigning blame, charging too much on the backcharge and didn't have the courtesy to deal with you face to face. I only wonder why you're hanging on till Thanksgiving.
No matter what the circumstances behind it, the contractor handled it badly. That long a mutually beneficial relationship deserves better no matter what your trade. Hang around and you've been set up as the patsy for the next little problem.