So like many of us I’ve had low back pain/spasm issues over the years.
3 times my back has ‘given out’ or ‘gone out’ leaving me flat on it for a few days, then stretching and baths and takin’ it easy until I’m back up to speed.
Been bothering me since the holidays, just pain down low. Ok when I’m working but then get home and swing out of the truck and “OOOOHF>” going from standing to sitting is a transition that takes a little time.
So I went in for some PT and again asked the docs about the ‘step’ I’ve felt in my lower spine for several years. The answer has been, “Oh yeah, that’s normal wear and tear.. ” and so on.
This time the PT feels the step and says I should get an xray before she continues to treat me. There’s a ‘condition…’
Had to make 3 phone calls and basically demand the xray and lo and behold, I do have this condition in my lower spine called “Spondylolisthesis”
Google that… It’s where one vertebra has slipped on it’s lower partner, fore or aft. My L5 as slipped forward on L4 a full 10mm! Plainly visible on the xray.
WTF?!
Now I’ve had an MRI and I’m off to visit with the neurosurgeon next.
Anybody familiar with this? Got it? What’s up with your back?
Replies
Being a sheetrocker for too many years, I have had various back issues over the years. Most serious was a numbing, painful sciatica for a couple of years.
Been pretty lucky for a few years and then this week woke up with a neck ache that lasted 3 days. Reminded me how fast it can bring me down.
I hope you can find a solution w/o surgery, kind of surprised your seeing a surgeon so fast.
This is an interesting alternative site http://www.cure-back-pain.org/index.html
Healing is a matter of time, but it is sometimes also a matter of opportunity.”
Hippocates
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Edited 5/1/2009 11:35 pm by ruffmike
Seeing the surgeon so fast because the PT and Primary Doc were immediately hands-off when it came to this spondylolisthesis business. They're forwarding me on to the expert for a consult.
I'll check the site on your link, thanks.
Some things I would add. I find that if I am carrying an extra ten pounds it puts a big stress on my back "issues". Keeping my weight down seems to have a direct effect on my back's health.
Plenty of water and an omega 3 source can only help the inflamation also. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
hydration a major factor for me.
And I find it will take me a day to rehydrate well.
Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We'll see where it goes.
Mostly I'd like to find out generally if there's a danger doing what I'm doing--working or playing sports.
I want to know how stable it is, and if I could really injure myself just by lifting something......well then it might be back to teaching. You know, 'something to fall back on.'
;-)
They should be able to tell from the x-ray and MRI if the area of fracture has healed or is unstable. Of course unstable is more concerning because that means more movement is possible. If they tell you you they see it is an old fracure and has ossified this means you can feel more comfortable doing more strenuous activities. Be careful with any jumping activites (ie: basketball) as this increases the chance of worsening your situation.
Dale
Waters,About 20 years ago the NY Times did an indepth study on backs and back pain and published their results in a book. They interviewed over 2,000 people and followed the outcomes of their treatment for about 2 years after the initial interview. Every conceivable solution was followed up on from surgery to rolfing (what ever that is). The reason for the study was because over 60% of the reasons people see DR's is because of headaches and pain in the back. Now my memory is not that great,but for me the key conclusion was that orthopaedic surgeons were successful about 36% of the time and Physical therapy was successful 34% of the time. Also, PM&R specialists(a DR. cross trained in orth and neuro..but don't cut) were successful 87% of the time. You don't hear much about PM&R because they are in rehab hospitals. They specialize in making sure the muscles are adequately supporting your bones, etc....and they don't cut.
Also, PM&R specialists(a DR. cross trained in orth and neuro..but don't cut) were successful 87% of the time. You don't hear much about PM&R because they are in rehab hospitals. They specialize in making sure the muscles are adequately supporting your bones, etc....and they don't cut.
That's interesting.
I'll try to find that reference too.
Thanks,
Pat
twenty years ago,the success rate for back surgery was only about 50% or less. Some 10-20% made things worse.That has now improved because more preliminary procedures to qualify patients eliminate those who are less likely to experience good outcome.regardless, the majority of back pain is from slipped or ruptured discs which is a very different situation from Water's problem, where surgery is more likely for specifically indicated individual in the qualifying protocol.While I was at the Mayo, I spent a lot of time in their library. My problem is degenerative disc disease and several bad discs with arthritis spurs. There is a world of evidence that a ruptured disc will heal itself within six months to a year, regardless of what treatment is provided, so long as the patient does not re-injure it.
That seems to be consistent witht he report you mention from the NYT
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
piffin,Yes, things have improved over the past 20 years....or at least enough to keep the referrals coming. Unfortunately there has been little work to reduce the incidence of back pain and the current lifestyle of people indicates a growing problem. We put together a state of the art facility to analyze, as best we could, the causes and cures of musculoskeletal problems. Our physicians and equipment were producing some amazing results. More important, however, gait analysis at the grammar school level along with muscle and tendon testing may have the best benefit to the community in the future.
I've been away from the business for ten years...but it doesn't take much to get my passion going :)
Rolfing is deep "massage," but they really dig in and practically tear things. I have never had it done, but hear that it is quite painful.
Run and get the book "Pain Free" before you get to that surgeon.
Hurry.
It might not help you at all but it might help you a lot. Peter Egoscue is the author and he asks the question: "Why has the disc slipped?" Then he answers it.
I'm a fan of Pain Free also, actually I am a fan of anything but back surgery. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Hey blue,
"Why has the disc slipped?"
Interestingly, my MRI revealed that I have no disc problems and no pinching of the nerves.
Just the Slippage of the whole vertebral body over the next one down the line. I was happy to get that news, but I still have the spasm and 'shifting sensation' when I transition from standing to sitting or the other way around.
I agree surgery is a last resort.
Worked for me many years ago. Read all the reviews too!
Actually it's worked for me for more then just back pain. If nothing else it's a great read!!!
.John Sarno rules!!
http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Back-Pain-Mind-Body-Connection/dp/0446392308
reviews below:
View Image
I think this book will be most helpful for people who have been suffering with back pain for a long period of time (months to years). Most back pain lasts only a short time, and if it persists, you probably either have a really serious medical problem (that is usually obvious) or there are psychological factors involved.
If you've been through the...
› See more 5 star, 4 star reviews
In the words of Dr. Sarno, "A book cannot substitute for a doctor and it is not my intention to diagnose and treat through this book." I fear, however, that the arguments set forth are precisely the kind that would keep many people from seeking appropriate medical treatment for their back pain.
I speak from experience because I recently came within hours...
› See more 3 star, 2 star, 1 star reviews
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
John Sarno knows what he's talking about. At one time, I couldn't walk a full block because of lower back pain. It turned out to be a problem with the muscle between my ears!! No BS.
I went to Sarno (I live near his office in NYC), and then worked with a very fine psychologist that is his associate. I've had one brief relapse in 20 years following the end of my treatment. Otherwise, I've been in tremendous shape.
Bob Chapman
Thanks Andy for that link to the Sarno book.
I had known about Sarno from listening to the Howard Stern show but I didn't realize that it would apply to someone who had herniated discs. When I read the reviews from the link I saw that Sarno was healing people who had the same conditions I have. One of the reviewers listed a bit of info about Sarno's solution. So, I tried it all day and I was surprised to find that I had significantly less problems while I bent and lifted far more than I have been allowing myself.
I'm getting that book. My interest is definitely peaked now.
Jim
Surprisingly enough I heard of John Sarno before Stern ever had him on his show and was elated when I heard his name mentioned by Howard years after Sarno cured my back pain. I was thrilled Howard gave him so much publicity (for free).
My back was in such bad shape I there were some mornings I literally couldn't get out of bed. I wouldn't even drink a cup of water those days in fear of having to walk to the bathroom to pee. It was bad. I went to a pretty famous sports surgeon and it cost me a fortune. Before I went back to him I happen to be given Sano's book and read it savoring every word b/c I really believed in what he had to say. It was the kind of thing I really believed in all my life so I put it to practice and weird as it sounds I was almost instantly healed as long as I paid close attention. My back has NEVER hurt me in the slighest since.
I do think however there are those that may need surgerory. My wife got into a bad boat accident and crushed one of her something or others in her back and was almost paralyzed. Came really close. She has a buncha steel in her back now and luckily plays tennis every day with little issue.....but for the most part my guess is 95% of the people with back issues can find the answeres in their heads like Bob was saying.
Good luck
andy
PS...and to add....I've applied Sanro's techniques to a whole host of other issues in my life with great success.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Jim..just went back to the reviews to read the newer ones first since I'd last looked and the 3rd one down was pretty interesting:
View Image Please, please read this book, <!---->April 18, 2009<!---->
By
nnelg (Canada) - See all my reviews
I am a 57 year old that has suffered from numerous conditions and much pain since I was a teen. Just to name a few since most of us need to see ourselves in someone else's experience, -chronic prostatitis (started when I was 15 and still flares up occasionally) -dizziness -tinnitis (ringing in the ears) -numbness in arms hands and legs -paralyzing fear of MS for at least 10 years -irritable bowel syndrome -debilitating back pain, shoulder pain, neck pain (my wife went ALONE on our 30th anniv. trip because I was on the floor in pain) -TMJ and ear pain -chronic fear that I have "one of the big ones" (they just haven't found it yet) -severe depression I could go on but this gives you an idea. Invariably when one issue faded, another began. My wife tells me I was essentialy absent in the raising of our children because of my preoccupation with my health issues. It makes me want to cry when I think that my wife was a "married single" for all those years. About 2 years ago I was looking up back pain books on Amazon and came across "Healing Back Pain" by Dr. Sarno. The reviews were unbelievable and being that the book was not new there were a lot of them. I ordered the book and devoured it, finding myself in every page (as you often hear). And like so many others on this forum I began to seriously consider the information presented. I ordered "The Mindbody Prescription" and read it as well. I ordered Dr. Sarno's CD and listened to it while travelling. I finally came to understand what was causing my pain and how to relieve it. I would say that over the last 2 years I have been 85% successful in moving past the pain/fear issues that would have previously crippled me. I remember shortly after I was beginning this process, my wife and I were on a one month trip to the UK. We were going to go for a walk and I bent over to tie my shoe when I had a stabbing pain in my lower back...the beginning of a usual episode. At first I panicked as we were only in the second week of our trip. "Oh no! I'll have to spend the next two weeks on my back. What am I going to do?" Instead I immediately remembered what my brain was trying to do and thought "No. I'm not going to let this ruin our trip. This will pass." We went out walking and during the afternoon everything returned to normal. This has happened many times since then. Also has happened with all the other issues mentioned above. I might reread a section of one of Sarno's books. I might just give myself a talking to. I might just press on. In any event, the issue passes. I have not had pschycotherapy because I cannot afford it but it doesn't seem to matter that I don't know the exact root. Also I have not seen a TMS doctor because there are none that I know of in the area. I am not 100%. I suffer from some depression but I'm so thankful that I'm not where I was. This information (wrong word because it's much more powerful than that) has been life changing for me. BTW, I am finishing "The Divided Mind". It's great because it presents other physicians experiences on TMS and it's equivalents. Sorry to be so long. There is hope. For those who find this forum and haven't read the books...just do it. Meditate on the principles. If you can accept them you'll be on your way to a much better life.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
There is definitely a mental component, but when there is a structural anomaly, there is little the mind can do to "fix" it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
also ... most will tell ya back surgery can help leg pain, not back pain.
the power of positive thinking may help back spasms ... but no one will ever "think" the pressure off a crushed sciatic nerve.
I've had both back pain ... and leg pain ... and they ain't the same thing by a long shot. I can work thru back pain.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
It took me some time studying and working thru the PT to learn to differentiate between the nerve pain in the spine, and the muscles spasm pain related to it all. I had the sciatica for a time, with beginning foot drop and leg weakness. Also radiating pain that made me thing my hip was in need of replacement and that my groin had muscles tears. It was all referred from the back, with nerves being aggravated by bone spurs at the spine.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
As we age the key to any physical quality of life is stretching. If you don't do anything else, stretch in the AM before going to work. PM before going to bed and inbetween if your feeling pain during the work day. Take the bucket out of ANYTHING your sitting in couch truck etc. Change your posture like your mom told you, sit up straight, and don't sit on a wallet. Start now.................Becoming pain free is NOT gonna happen overnite it will take several months, but it will work, and work for yrs., I'm into my 10th yr of being able to live comfortably.......
Edited 5/2/2009 6:43 am ET by Pelipeth
I was laid up bad for a month or more with a disc that went kaflooey. Chiro, home stead meds, exercise, no exercise,heat , cold..NOTHING was helping.
Xrays, MRI and finally a visit with the big guns and it was suggested the "laminer? rod install..No way Jose..huge amt of $$$$.
So, now I've been on Meloxicam for a month and a half and being real careful about moderate exercise, fewer chiro adjustments, and really feel improvement. It's a NSAID once a day pill, and only , get this..4 bucks a month!!!!!!
I'm also a huge proponent of "creative visualization" I spend as much time envisioning a healthy back as I can, believe it or not, like positive thinking, it works. The secret is focus on the healthy back, not the pain or disturbed part. If you focus on that, you just create that much more. Naysayers and non believers can tear me apart now..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"
Jed Clampitt
View Image
i think the most powerful medicine in the world is our mindthe worst injuries and the worst sickness' have been cured using only the mindsmuch easier said than done of course
Agreed. The mind does indeed work in mysterious ways. I've "willed" enough situations that I can attest, it can work if you are open to it.
Too bad so many folks are mindlessly getting in our way. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Yeah, I remember when I cut my hand off, all it took was a little will power and some starfish supplements to grow it right back again. The kids were amazed!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"the worst injuries and the worst sickness' have been cured using only the minds"
did help my buddy Joe.
he went in last Fri for his third back surgery.
Doc number one did the first two ...
told him after his constant complaining to see a psychlogist ... it's all in his head.
Doc number two did the last operation ... this time they added hardware instead of just cutting stuff out. He opened Joe up ... found he had to go to Plan B ... as Plan A was screw something into one of the bones ...
and that bone was cracked in half.
A year of xrays and mri's didn't show anything ... or were misread.
so that year of living in pain .... Joe was walking around with a broken bone in his back. Guess he didn't "think it away" hard enough!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
not all minds work alikei agree with you that some things may not be repairable with only the mindand it takes a very strong person to only use the mind that waywith our life styles in today's world it would be very had to concentrate on just the healingi still believe the mind is the strongest medicine but it can also take yo both waysthen again this is only my thought process
....both ways.
Right you are, you can also dibilitate yourself with negative thoughts, or overlook the consequences of what you are healing.
"If the human mind was simple enough to understand, we'd be too simple to understand it"
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Edited 5/2/2009 3:24 pm ET by Sphere
I hesitate to recommend a chiropractor because some are good and some are very bad, but if you know anyone who has had success with one and you let the chiro know your problem, they may be able to get the vertabra back in line. I would wait on surgery, as it seems often to leave the person worse than before! (However, be careful, because a bad chiropractor can also leave you in worse shape!)
I have found that strengthening my stomach muscles has stopped me from getting so many back aches. I used to have lower back pain all the time, but since doing something like crunches on a Nautilus machine (as well as strengthening back muscles) I have felt a lot better. (If I weren't so fat, I would be ripped--there's a six pack under that layer of fat somewhere!)
six pack under the fat, LOL.
Yeah, I used to go to the chiro until I was injured by one--kijankin' on me when my back was in spasm.
I don't buy it any longer.
I'm sure a program will come my way after the consult with the neuro. Thing is, I'm already very flexible, and pretty fit. The last PT told me that part of my problem was that I was too flexible...
Pictures man. we need pictures to see this!
;)
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I won't bore you with my back history.But I would recommend second opinions and physical therapy and/or Pilates before you consider surgery. Those core muscles can be trained to support things and keep them more or less right. Very few good reasons for immediate surgery, and doing core strengthening first will improve odds of successful surgery or lessen the need for it, as well as make recovery faster. if fact, some surgeons now use the PT route as part of preliminary qualifications. If a person will not do the pre-surgical exercises they will never be convinced to do the post surgical ones and that surgeons success rate goes down.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
agreed. Surgery last resort.
It appears the NS referral is for more info/consult on the condition itself. Both the PT and my regular doc did not have opinion as to treatment until the expert consults.
"physical therapy and Pilates" All the way! My wife has Spondy and she's almost completely eliminated the pain with PT and pilates. Her PT place actually offers free pilates the same day as your therapy.I use to have a lot of back and joint problems. My feet hurt all the time and I suffered bouts of low energy & depression. Then I lost 50 pounds, and with the weight went all the problems.
"My wife has Spondy "
tell me more about her situation!
Where is hers, how bad, what grade, how did it happen, what movements/PT is she doing?
etc?
lumber monkey's wife here-i was diagnosed with grade 2 spondy and have tried several things to improve the pain (acupuncture, chiro, etc). the lowest vertebrea on my spine is partially gone and there is calcification around the lower spine. physical therapy really worked to help strengthen and stabilize the muscles in my lower back and core supporting my cervical spine. the exercises include 40 clams (aimed at the glutes)-daily now with a 10 lb weight on my leg, dead lifts, the monster walk, this weird thing they taught me to do to "balance my pelvis" which basically has you put a yoga block between your knees and press and it cracks your inner hips and also pilates. its taken a while (almost a year) but i don't go to PT any more-i'm just religious about my exercises and pilates. i still have some pain if i am inactive, but for the most part is has subsided. good luck!
Hey thank you Lumbermonkey's wife!
So yours is at L1, or right at the pelvis? Sounds like your condition is more 'extreme' than mine with the vertebra 'gone' and calicification.
Congrats on your current state tho, sounds like you're in good shape.
What's a 'Clam?'
I assume they'll have a routine for me too. Anxious for it.
Pain if you're inactive, like how? If you don't do your exercises, or if you just sit around.
I used to be a bike racer, which probably helped--flexion of the spine on the bike--but weak abs and hamstrings. I never ran much but I've been playing soccer and I don't think the running's good for my lower back. Too much fun though.
Thanks again for a first-hand response.
Pat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spondylolisthesis
look at the second x-ray down the page. It shows spondyl. btw L4 and L5 what I've got.
Mine looks just like that, or a little more deflected.
Spondylolisthesis is a entirely different animal than a "slipped" disc or generalized arthritis. The diagnosis is graded 1-4 with grades 3 and 4 being candidates for surgery due to the distance the vertebrae is displaced forward. The cause of this problem is usually what's called a pes fracture of the vertebrae close to the facet joint. The vertebrae will never return to it's normal position. Depending on your grade and symptoms you have a few options.
#1 DO NOT do any backward bending activities. Even though lying on your stomach and arching your back is recommended for many back problems this is a big no-no for your condition. If and when you bend backwards this places more stress on the vertebrae causing it to displace further forward. When others chime in and tell you backward bending (extension) helped their back remember that you have Spondylolisthesis (not a disc problem). Forward bending and activities such as crunches are recommended.
#2 If you are not experiencing neurological symptoms (tingling, numbness, weakness or pain into your legs) you may very well benefit from a specific core strengthening program as well as abdominal strengthening. I would personally not undergo surgery until I had exhausted all conservative measures and lifestyle modification. Remember your problem will never go away but if you can manage it and live mostly pain free that will be a win in my opinion.
#3 Surgery- This would most likely be a fusion so that the vertebrae can no longer move anywhere. This will definately stop the progression but most likely provide you with a few more problems down the road. The long term outcome research on fusions is not very good. IF you have neurological symptoms surgery may be your only option (somewhat depending on severity). Keep in mind surgeons view surgery as the solution to most problems because that is what they do.
Hope this helps.
Very informed response.
The 'mckenzie method' 'heal your own back' deal is the prone press up. The extension forces the buldging disc back into its place.
The PT had me doing this, forcefully at that, first off before the Xray and things were indeed worse, or at least different. IT was more comfortable standing but I could not sit AT ALL.
I've been doing more flexion stretches, hamstring and butt stretches and feeling better.... Then I went and played soccer on th night and a little more stiff.
Or was it working on a stair all day yesterday?
Thanks for your reply.
Years ago I picked up a barrel which was heavier than I had expected and felt something give in my lower back. For a week or two, I couldn't stand up straight. Went to a Doc and I don't recall any X-rays, just muscle relaxers. Healed up fine and no problems for several years.
I was having problems and went to a Chiro and he mentioned something about a "spondy" when he showed me the x-ray. He treated me and No problems for another few yrs.
Lately, I've been having a nagging pain at the base of my spine after driving and sitting for two long. I think the difference is that I've gained 20 lbs. and have quit doing any ab work for awhile.
I had forgotten about the "Spondy". Glad you brought it up. Didn't ask the Chiro enough questions about it.
"nagging pain at the base of my spine after driving and sitting for two long"
does it feel like it's right in the middleof your spine?
Does it go away when you've adjusted to standing up?
Does it go away if you flatten your back against the floor?
It's slightly left of the middle.I don't really notice it if I'm up moving which is terrible because I'm a very lazy person. :)Now that I think of it, sometimes if I bend over for awhile, I have a "catch" when I straighten up, but not so much when getting out of a chair.I'll try laying flat on the floor and see what happens. Sometimes I've put a pillow or book under my rear when laying on my back and that seems to help.This has been bothering me awhile and I guess it's not bad enough that I've gotten used to it and haven't thought much about it. This aging deal really bites when a new pain somewhere is just another day.
Diagnosis and conservative management of degenerative lumbar spondylolisthesis. Eur Spine J. 2008 Mar;17(3):327-35 Kalichman L, Hunter DJ. Clinical Epidemiology Research and Training Unit, Boston University, 650 Albany Street (X Building), Suite 200, Boston, MA 02118, USA. [email protected]
Degenerative spondylolisthesis (DS) is a disorder that causes the slip of one vertebral body over the one below due to degenerative changes in the spine. Lumbar DS is a major cause of spinal canal stenosis and is often related to low back and leg pain. We reviewed the symptoms, prognosis and conservative treatments for symptoms associated with DS. PubMed and MEDLINE databases (1950-2007) were searched for the key words "spondylolisthesis", "pseudospondylolisthesis", "degenerative spondylolisthesis", "spinal stenosis", "lumbar spine", "antherolisthesis", "posterolisthesis", "low back pain", and "lumbar instability". All relevant articles in English were reviewed. Pertinent secondary references were also retrieved. The prognosis of patients with DS is favorable, however, those who suffer from neurological symptoms such as intermittent claudication or vesicorectal disorder, will most probably experience neurological deterioration if they are not operated upon. Nonoperative treatment should be the initial course of action in most cases of DS, with or without neurologic symptoms. Treatment options include use of analgesics and NSAIDs to control pain; epidural steroid injections, and physical methods such as bracing and flexion strengthening exercises. An up-to-date knowledge on diagnosis and prevention of lumbar DS can assist in determination of future research goals. Additional studies are required to establish treatment protocols for the conservative treatment of DS.
"flexion strengthening exercises"
ie. ABS,
thanks for post.
Walk the dog 1-2 miles EVERY DAY...
you'll be surprised.
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Y'know, walking does help. I walk with the dog and my daughter, while she's on her little bike and it does work things out.
My brother had been down twice a year for half a decade.
Started walking the lab every day... religiously.
Back pain was gone after three months.
No episodes for over a year.
He thanks God for that dog showing up as a stray.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
I've had chronic, severe back pain for 20 years. The only thing that has ever helped me was a trip to Utah, hiking through Canyonlands, and to a lesser extent Arches, with a big bag of pot. I think it was the combination of not working, hiking in the desert and the self-medicating with MJ.
Bob
That's really funny.
I live here in Eugene Oregon, where just about everybody (like at least 2 of my neighbors, for real) has a medical MJ card. The freakin' mayor just went to an event regarding the laws, and has even dedicated a medical MJ day!
Pot makes me paranoid tho... I think I'm out.
:-)
It sounds like a funny anecdote, but it's true. I quit smoking (Newports) over 3 years ago and so went the pot. In terms of my back pain, I've never felt worse. Medical marijuana was just recently legalized in Michigan but there are no legal suppliers - bad joke, right! If I could get a doctor to subscribe and I didn't have to go underground to find a supplier, I would take up pot again to control back pain. BTW, I used to live in Oregon - Springfield, Bend, then Pendleton. I've been to Eugene but gotta say Bend is the bomb - love central Oregon with the 3 Sisters, Mt Bachelor; very sunny clime.Regards, Bob
I thought you could grow your own in Michigan (with a doctor's prescription). Then you'd just need to find some seed somewhere.
Mental stress will aggravate and amplify exiting pain. I notice periods of time with varying things that help me distract and the noticeable pain is far less.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My chiro told me about my Spondylolysthesis around 25 years ago. After an aggravating injury in '97, he encouraged me to have an MD prescribe PT. That definitely helped.
A Keystone retaining wall job consisting of 800 60#(+) blocks sent me back into PT last Fall, and I was directed to some really fabulous folks. The Manual Therapy techniques they used, combined with the relatively painless workout they gave me got me back up and running.
I'll always have some degree of pain from the structural problem that I have, but if I keep doing the appropriate workouts, I'll be happy.
Core strength! That's the ticket!
AitchKay
My back is a mess way before it should be. Arthritis runs in my family, and I thought everything was peachy with me when I blew out my L4-L5 disc in 98. the pain was pretty rough, and the burning sensation in my leg was unbearable. turns out the arthritsis in my back has reduced the space between each vertebrae so when the disc blew out, it immidiately squashed the nerve. I went to a neurosurgeon, and the guy was like Dr. Nick from the simpsons, (the whole thing seemed like a joke to him) and I freaked out and lived with the pain for another month. got a second opinion (doc said surgery) and I still balked. took my MRIs and X-Rays to a chiropractor who told me that he could not help me until after the bone was shaved down. So, had the surgery. Everything was great for almost 6 years when out of the blue, my right foot stopped working (aka drop foot) and the disc popped again, and this time I had emergency surgery, and there was no mechanism of injury, OR pain. it just blew out. The doc mentioned that my L5 S1 looked a little bad too. Thats important because, after a whole bunch more time pain free, that one went POP! on halloween. It might be because I was lifting pumpkins to the roof of the school, but I will deny that. (I throw rotten pumpkins off the roof of the school for halloween! GRAVITY!!!)
The pain was really bad and I had drop foot in the right foot again. I crawled to my truck and my fiance drove me to the hospital.
The doc's nurse saw my MRI first and said "when was the last time you ate, I am going to reserve a surgery suite for you" the doc saw it and said lets try an epidural first.
I said no surgery, great! stick a needle in my spine. So, had two epidurals (cocktails of nerve blockers and anti imflamatories) and it was SO COOL to watch. you can see them fishing a needle in your spine real time. so cool, and the pain relief was instanteaneous, also really really nice, the two shots where about 2 weeks apart, and after really intense physical therapy, one would not know I ever had an issue. BUT I do have a weak right foot, that still isnt 100%.
Knowing the risks of surgery and that most folks who have surgerys will have to have it again, and how fast the epidural supplies relief. I will always choose epidurals first, but, sometimes surgery is the only way.
jeff
OK, here goes......I use honey bee stings on my lower back and elbows when they start to bother me. It's like acupuncture on the pressure points. A guy 10-12 years older than me told me about it 7-8 years ago. AND....when I got up off the floor laughing he said, "well you wanna try it or not"..... Well my back was hurting sooo bad I said sure, after all it's only a bee sting (the honey bee can only sting you once then they die). AND....it WORKS!!!!!! I know it sounds CRAZY, but I had been to the Chiropractor , Doctor and the massage therapist, but this actually works.
A few years ago Georgetown U was even given a grant of a few hundred thousand dollars to start and continue the research to find out what it is in the bee venom that does what it does. They have found that it is an anti-inflammatory and increases blood flow to the affected area to promote healing.
I've been keeping my own hives of honeybees ever since. And don't get me started on the nutrition AND healing properties of raw honey.
Now have fun rolling on the floor laughing yer self silly. BUT IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!
Bill D. (pain free)
Oh, oh, now that you've posted that about the bees you're going to have PETA after you for bee abuse--actually be murder! The Horror!
On a slightly different note--I had heard that many leg/back pain problems were caused by wallets. I was experiencing what from descriptions I'd heard must have been sciatica and I moved my wallet from right rear pocket to left and tried to keep it from being so bulky (yeah, all those hundred dollar bills made it too thick!) and my sciatica went away. "Mein Fuhrer, I can walk!" (I've found that last expression so useful in so many occasions!)
Yea, I'll probably hear from the feminists too, bee-cause the honeybees are 80-90% all girls. Once the boys have done what they are supposed to do with the queen they get tossed out. (horrible social structure).
And now it's off to a whole house remuddle, with and archy from Ireland. She wanted to know if she should do the drawing in "feet/inches" or "metric". (UH-OOH, I'd better practice my decimals)
Bill D.
"If I can turn it into sawdust, I can handle it"
Interesting thread.......I have a close friend that worked for 15 years (left for a similar position a year ago) for a subsidiary of J&J. The branch he worked for made parts, screws, rods, and surgical instruments and tools for spinal surgery exclusively. He was in sales at that point, so he traveled the world, dealing with spinal surgeons, getting to know the best in the biz. This came in handy when my 12 year old son was diagnosed with scoliosis 2 years ago, he put us in touch with a great doc, we like him very much. Found out later that he is "The Guy" in regards to Scoliosis in this area.......I've had some back issues off and on, nothing as serious as you folks are talking about. Most of mine seem to be nerve and muscle related, most likely from a motorcycle accident some 20 years ago....but I digress.The reason I mention my friend is this; he has told me that consistently, back surgery is more successful the higher up the spine you go. Cervical surgeries have something like an 85% rate of satisfaction......He has told me that in surveys as recent as a year ago, when you get to the lumbar area, 50% of patients are in the same or worse pain a year after surgery. My Dad had a spinal fusion 4 years ago, due to degenerative disc disease...bone on bone vertebrae. He's told me that he only thought his back hurt before.....now it really does.I post this to echo, I guess, the sentiments of the other posts here. Based on what I've been told, and read, try EVERYTHING before going the surgery route. Books, mind-over-matter,chiro, acu, yoga..... witch doctor shaking a maraca over your back. I wouldn't say that I would never have surgery...as others have said.....sometimes it's the only alternative. But be smart.Good luck.Bing
LOL,
That is pretty d funny, but I'm one step ahead of you--check the pic from my backyard.
Actually.. I haven't purposefully used them for pain relief yet!
So what do you do, put one under your shirt and wait?
Pat
I'd try the bee thing too if my latest " mind over matter" doesn't work. So far, it seems to be working pretty well. Every time I feel the pain I tell myself it isn't there and it does seem to dissappear. Last week I would have shifted out of the position that was causing the pain, now, I'm staying in the position and just saying No!
I actually have lifted some stuff in the past few days that would have scared me last week. I had to hoist a 50 pound window ac unit on to my shoulder and I actually bent over and lifted it with my back....something that was previously unthought of.
I think a lot of my back muscles are atrophied and I've been avoiding using any of them which in turn causes more pain.
do you find with the mind over matter method that you have a better posture?
I've been working on my posture for the last half year or so. I've learned to keep my lower back in flexion (butt up) and keep my shoulders back when walking. I find myself correcting myself all the time.
Keeping my pelvis rotated back helped immensely but I never have gotten over the fear of lifting anything heavy. I wouldn't have dreamed about lifting that AC unit five days ago.
But, since I've decided to ignore/challenge the pain, I've moved into many different bending positions that I've previously avoided and I've moved throught them successfully. It surprises me when I can bend over all the way and now have a stab of pain.
I think there's a lot to healthy body parts by way of mobility. If you're afraid of moving in a certain direction, the restricted movement just compunds the problem. Kinda like the old saying "use it or lose it."
I've been having a lot of problems with my left shoulder for the 20 years and the docs couldn't find anything wrong (nor id they seem that interested either). Chiropractor could get me some temp relief but it wasn't long before it start dropping out on me.
Screwit. Tried my own plan of getting to the gym nearly everyday and the casual weights I use have made an incredible difference. If I'm only doing weights, that day which only takes 20-30 minutes I don't bother changing out of my work clothes.
I think you are right. I haven't been using it and I was losing it. I'm going to start on a dumbell routine.
Start light, real light. I'm kind of embrassed about the weights I'm at, especially what I used to be able to do but pride has to take a back seat to health.
I'm going to start on a dumbell routine.
Try saying that in The Tavern...lol
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
Every time I feel the pain I tell myself it isn't there and it does seem to dissappear..
Cool! I'll have to try that with my wife too!
(ok now, REZ can come along and give me my award, right?)
Actually--once you're out of the injury/spasm period, using those muscles to strengthen them up is what should keep them healthy. I agree.
WOW!!....Sweet!!!!! ( get it....honeybee>>honey>> sweet!?) Seriously that a nice sight. You have 2-4 hives?. Was that taken recently? Looks like they are working good. Have you lost any hives in the past year?? Here on the east coast some have lost 40-50% of there population to what is becoming known as CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder). Big article in National Geographic not long ago. Seems to be not enough flowers, too many pesticides, too many people have nice green lawns with not enough flowers. Article said that nice green lawns look like deserts to honeybees. All these things reduce the hives' resistance to disease. So it kinda like no one thing is causing the collapse, but a combination of multiply events affecting the colony. Actually I just lost my last hive, they just disappeared. I'm trying to catch a wild swarm, if not I'll order another hive or two.
But as to your other question, Yes I would go out with a pt. jar with holes in the lid and sprinkle water in there so they can't fly away. Then reach in with long twizers and gently lift one out and rub her business end at the pressure point on my back until she lets go.Then as you know she dies and I leave the stinger and venom sack in for about 2-3 min. Depending on how bad my back is ,I may do 2-3 stings. Yes, it hurts a little but not that much, ( more like a hot little match just for a second or two) then the next day drives me almost crazy cause of the itching. But two days later I'm up and around feeling fine. And It lasts, until I go and be(e) stupid again and twist/lift the wrong way. If your not allergic ..give it a try.. I also use raw honey as an antiseptic for cuts. And it's great for your skin. Not to mention just plain good for you to eat. Lots of vit/minerals. The stuff in the store has been pasteurized and homogenized until all you just is just the fructose(sugar).
And I have to ask.... is that a walkboard in the grass in front of the hives???
Hey billy,
Yeah that was last summer after hiving a swarm. They're all going in that green box. The other 2 were already humming along.
I've got 2 colonies now and I've had asmany as six. I've kept it all going by hiving swarms. I'm on a list with a local bee supply place--if a swarm shows up in somebody's yard they call the bee place and they give out my number--I go get 'em. Met some pretty interesting people that way.
Ok, maybe this weekend I'll go get myself stung...
And yes, that's a 20' werner plank in the picture. I don't know why I stuck it there!
pat