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Though I would toss this out for a little decision, Am thinking of building a Light Gauge Steel Frame Home hopefully within the coming year. Construction will be a little different from stick built wood framing, the one thing that I don’t like is the trimming the interior out. Want to trim out in hardwood trim and not having anything to nail into will be a lot of gluing base board for sure.
Have found a panelized LGSF system that is like a big erector set that will save me lots of time framing. Would be doing Lots of screws and not many nails on this project.
Standing seam roof and had thought about open cell foam insulation (icynene) or something like it. Did a few searches on this site on both LGSF and icynene and found a few hits on icyenne and one on LGSF.
But if the search function breaktime is like the one over on Knots forum then sometimes it’s tough to find some things.
Think my biggest challenge will be finding me a couple helpers that can speak English since I no speak Espanola! ( South Texas.)
So any thoughts or comments on any of the 3 items above.
Thanks
Koi-Kid
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A few built in this area some years back. No reason why not, if its engineered and built right. I've found with standard commercial metal track, a 2x4 can be dropped in the track between studs, for baseboard nailing. And on commercial t.i.'s we always framed the r.o.'s a little oversize, and screwed a 2x4 for casing to nail to.
I think if I built one, I'd factor in half inch shear panel throughout. That way cabinets, shelves, etc. would always have something structural to screw to.
edited to add: just curious - why the bold lettering?
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 7/25/2009 2:28 am by Huck
Trim screws work on steel, gluing isn't that big a pain, but we usually cross nail into framing then... and that's two holes to fill.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Bold..... So us Old guys can see it! That's still not large enough for me to see with out my glasses, I had typed it in something else to use spell check and did a cut and paste to the forum. Just looked now and see that there is a spell check here also. Oh well!
Had thought about dropping 2x4 or 2x6 in tracks for base trim install, trim screws would make to large of a hole and would want to split hardwood trim I think, but have never used any.
You mention "1/2 shear panel" I don't seem to know really what that product is. Had figured on using 3/4 plywood on the walls in kitchen that would have cabinets attached to them. That is unless the code down there would prohibit that.
Out of couriosity why build with steel?
Why Steel....Straight,no twist, knots or big splits,fire resistant, immunity to termites,100% recyclable,will not mold, light weight and stronger once assembled, will have lower homeowners insurance cost.
Not questioning your choice, especially in somewhere as dry as Texas, but while steel framing won't mold, it lacks the capacity to absorb excessive moisture within the house making the other materials more susceptible to mold.
OK, good reasoning.. I applaud you for thinking outside the box..
How far outside have you looked? SIP's, ICF's, Etc?
Who's going to do the work?
Did look into SIP's and a little into ICF and not a 100% sure that I'm gonna do LGSF. That is the way I am leaning at the time that's kind of why I put the post out there to see what comes up. I need to get my shop building erected first and a small apartment built in it for a place to live while I build the house.
I will hire the foundation/slab work, the standing seam roof and the rock work other than that yours truly plans to handle. Living onsite and having the shop right there & not being in a big hurry to get it done. But living in a small apartment about 425sf may bring out a new relationship with my bride! But about all I will do is sleep and eat in it.
The spray in foam for insulation I'm not totally sold on yet but It does a job on sealing the thing up. have a friend that did his shop that way and it is slick and is quiet as can be, I have 3" fiberglass in my present shop and is not as quiet.
well Don't pay someone else to do your foundation..
ICF's make is so simple a caveman can do it! (sorry to all cavemen) Really! I was bedridden for a month right after I laid the first row of ICF's My sister-in-law with no prior experiance in construction whatsoever finished my whole basement for me.. (one days work after listening to my drug slurred instructions for about 20 minutes)
It really is a piece of cake. If you want I'll walk you through the steps. But at a minimum I saved over $10,000 on my foundation because I did it myself..
I built a double timberframe (no prior construction experiance really) but what I learned I would build a simple timber frame and instead of SIP's I'd enclose it with ICF's It's massively cheaper to do if you do it right! That plus you have walls that will withstand up to 200 mph winds and you can attach a roof in such a manner that it won't come off in tornados..
ICF's are also great for fire protection and wonderfully energy efficent.
Building a house this way would easily save more than 3/4 of what your steel or lumberyard bill would be. (plus it would be reasonably fast)
Hey Frenchy;
I got to doing some more research on LGSF and think I have nixed the idea of that build project. Looking at the steel being a thermal counductor and the screws going through the exterior sheathing sure do affect things.
Looked back at a lot of your post and you seem to prefer the walls ICF and SIP for the roof. Wonder why you prefer the ICF for side walls.
I went back to looking more indepth on SIPs and found a large SIPs company 50 miles from where I will be building. I like that as far as cost to xport material. Still need to do some more searching and reading up on SIPs.
By the way the pic's I saw of your project are impressive, like the timber framing.
I like ICF's because of the ease of building..(and a few other things)
With SIP's you need something capable of handling relatively large heavy panels. I used a telehandler but since I sold them it was a freebie. In addition getting panels together properly isn't as easy as it seems.. What I wound up having to do was screw 2x4 blocks on the two panels and then clamping them together. Each panel took more than an hour to put into place. A couple took many hours!
Even then it was entirely possible that the glue left air leaks. I know it let water leak in. To deal with the issue which the panel companies know about they suggest using a vapor barrier which by itself is a bad idea.. That is, the potential exists for moisture to leak in somehow and then you have the wet OSB trapped between the impenetrable foam of the SIP and the impenetrable vapor barrier. That's a possible recipe for disaster. (unless great care is taken to prevent it)
Later on I learned that it was infinately easier to put the panels horizontal rather than vertical as the panel companies suggest.. Now if you don't timberframe you've created a potential weak joint which putting them in vertically doesn't have.
I put them in horizontally once I figured that out and instead of taking an hour or more it was about 10 minutes per panel.. (gravity works wonderfully!)
Comparing panels to stick framing it still was massively easier to build with panels than to stick build and you do wind up with a much tighter more energy efficent house..
How much?
My old house was less than 1/2 the size and didn't have 1/4 of the number of windows this one does. (this one is 5500 sq.ft. with 109 windows) The old one using the same furnace cost me $500 a month to heat during the coldest months. This one just slightly over $200! That's in spite of cost increases for energy. (same exact furnace)
Not only that but the old house I had to use slippers or feeze my feet in the winter.. This house? I love to go barefoot all winter long!
OK how about this, The ceiling 28 feet above is within a 1/2 degree of what the temp on the floor is. the old house there was a 20 degree differance between the floor and the 8 foot ceiling..
OK the reasons I would use ICF's on the walls in the future. ICF's are like putting together foam leggo blocks very easy fast and no special equipment is used.
Second reason while the potential R value is slightly lower with ICF's the cost of heating should be the same. (long story) plus doing sheetrocking or anything else is really easy with ICF's
Third reason, here in tornado alley it means a lot that the walls can stand alone with a 200 mph wind speed.. In addition due to the Nature of ICF's fire is extremely rare,
Plumbing & wiring is even easier with ICF's than SIP's
Finally the timber framing was extremely easy to do and very cheap! A house the size you proposse would cost a couple of hundred dollars to timber frame.
Mind you I'd never ever done any timberframing before I started My first ever timber was the first timber in my house.. No school, no training, and all I did was read a couple of books.. (which most libraries have so you don't even need to buy them)
If you're interested in how please ask..
Frenchy
Shoot me an e-mail will see about discussing this subject some more with you
Thanks KoiKid
Edited 8/8/2009 5:14 pm ET by koikid
It is fine to discuss this sort of thing here.. various people will read it out of interest, some will even add their opinon.
some will even add their opinion
NO!
You know this how?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Hmm my house is all icf exterior walls and steel used for all interior walls. No wood used for framing at all except for roof . When it came to insurance they did not care in the least about the material choices... ie no better rates. oh well ....
I'm pretty good friends with my agent and his company will, he said I needed to get them involved before it is done for them to see. Said not all agents will but they can. But the one I would find down there may not be as willing to put out a little extra effort? We will see.
What do you call North Central Oklahoma? I'm from Western Creek County, altho I graduated from Stroud. My brother is football coach at Chandler.
Couple moree Okies that post here sometimes. jagwah and pebbles, i think.
After reading your post again, you must have moved to South Texas.
Edited 7/25/2009 12:42 pm ET by catfish
Ponca City, about 20 miles south of the Kansas border. I used to have to go down to Stroud and Chandler to do some work a few years back, but now just have to keep going further West.
Not down to Texas yet, plan to retire in the next couple years and build on a couple acres we own down in the Hill Country (about 25 miles N.W. of San Antonio)
When Barry Switzer moved from Oklahoma to coach the Dallas Cowboys he simultaneously raised the average intelligence level of both states!
...you mean Baja Oklahoma?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
When Barry Switzer moved from Oklahoma to coach the Dallas Cowboys he simultaneously raised the average intelligence level of both states!
Will Rogers said that about California in the 30's
That's right and Now Barry Switzer is advertising PowerLift foundation repair on TV all the time.
Gee I have to work a couple days and don't have time to come around breaktime and my Post goes from one end of the spectrum to the other. Didn't know I was going to get this much entertainment out of this question. Maybe we can get something in here about thread count so we will have covered the fabric forum, Yeast types for the wine forum.
I did take the short cutoff of a stud that is .040 thickness 18 or 20 gauge and shot a 16g finish nail through the oak trim and sheatrock I placed up against it and it pulled it nice and tight.
Two words come to mind:
"Thermal break".
Wood is a fairly poor insulator but steel is a thermal conductor.
I hope he pays attention to that!!
I did, cost me a whole $1.32
?????????????
????? You told Mat I think it was, I hope he pays attention to "Thermal Break"
and I replied yes I did and it cost me a $1.32 or what ever the amount was that I put in the reply. Get it "Pay" but I can hardly pay attention today after being out all night working and messing up my sleep. Yawn.....
That's ok, I hadn't had my meds yet when I read your reply!>G<
"I did, cost me a whole $1.32"
That's Buddhist palm, not Shaolin!
Keep in mind that fastening sheathing to light gauge steel is a real bitch. Think of discussions past where people laughed at the prospect of screwing a house together. That is EXACTLY what framing with steel stud is. And don't forget that waffle head screws stick out and make walls look like ####. Resilient channel on all ceilings is necessary to make a flat finish. IMHO, steel framing is for commercial applications where tolerances are substancially greater. I would like to add that the crew that framed the one steel house I have worked on used the new MAX powerlite guns with special nails for steel stud and probably 30% of them popped by the time we went to finish the floors. Same story on the roof.
" IMHO, steel framing is for commercial applications where tolerances are substancially greater."
My FIL builds churches (the Mormon church just builds one of the same 3 plans over and over again) and one of them was steel. He said never again - it was miserable to wrk with.
Here is my current project, 2500 lineal ft of steel framed roof. Along with the interior and exterior walls. after 25 years of steel framing, I am starting to agree with your father in law. ; ^ ) Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Frenchy's right. Really no real need to hire any trades. Drywalling, trim, plumbing and electrical can all be taught in weekly 20 minute lectures to passing kids who can perform the tasks using materials purchased at garage sales. Similarly you can become a killing machine by learning the secrets of Shaolin Monks on line.
Um, How did you learn?
I had absolutely no prior experiance building a house. (unless you call helping my dad build a garage when I was 4 years old as experiance)
If you go to 85891.1 &94941.1 you'll see my work. I had exactly 2 professionals that I hired.. The first was the guy to do the excavating and the second was the power company to bring me power..
I'm a salesman, old, (61) fat, (278#) and out of shape. ( I daily take 7 pills to keep my heart working etc..)
I did all that work while still holding down a full time job. The vast majority without any help at all. When I did get help it was from math teachers, lighting directors, a minister, and a local alcoholic.
None had any real experiance. So I taught them which end of a hammer to pick up and how to hold stuff..
Electrical? Start at the outlet and work towards the box. If you're nervious get an electrian to make the final connections for you. (me? I do it live because I understand how to do it safely..)
Plumbing? Shif goes downhill stink goes uphill, don't lick your fingers..
I'm not dismissing your experience. Just as I don't dismiss the experiences of those rare innocents who manage to sail across the Atlantic, build a working ultra-light with no prior knowledge or cure themselves of some fatal disease through wishful thinking. Good for you, good for them. What I am saying is that your experience has no legitimate application for others.
How did I learn? Through years of study and apprenticing myself to people experienced in the skills I needed. Of course once you have a good working knowledge in some area you can add to it by thinking through tasks and trial and error, but what you present as a viable way for inexperienced people to build their own house is essentially a fairy story. Your Sister-in-law should be on Oprah.
Apparently you haven't spent 15 minutes watching the video the form producers offer.
If you had you'd realize just how easy it is..
Yeh, there is stuff to watch out for but the video covers that completely. In addition before the pour begins the company that sold the forms sends out someone to check your work..
That really was my first experience with those forms. First time I'd really looked at them.. My second I deviated from the instructions massively and it went together just fine. I sawed each form into 3 parts and built the footings at the same time I poured the wall. Oh, and I didn't use any braces either!
(not that I'd recommend that to others)
My point is that using jargon and fear tactics many in the construction industry make things seem far more complex than they actually are..
I'm not particularly intelligent (IQ 131) But I'm literate and capable of learning from books.
If it's so easy and cheap, why haven't all of the conventional steel form guys been made extinct by ICF crews?If you price it out, without ignoring labor costs, ICF's will always be more expensive.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Well it's a lot closer once you insulate the concrete, but the whole point of ICF's is it takes it out of the so-called experts hands and puts it into the potential of the do-it-yourselfer.
There is no way I could lay a block wall and have it come out decent,, nor could I be expected to do form work in a reasonable time schedule..
But I can pick up a big foam leggo block and set it down where it belongs..
Aside from that I don't see how ICF's are that much more expensive other than there is almost no competition to do them so theose who do it can cut themselves a fat hog in their bids to cover the cost of learning.
I mean you have almost no equipment expenses like metal forms (expensive) which require a big truck with a boom arm to place the forms (also expensive) You'll actaully use more concrete than foam forms require.
Plus the labor to install the forms and to knock them down and haul them away again.
At least with ICF's once the forms are filled you can backfill. (or if you're like me, back fill carefully before you pour so you don't need to put up scaffolding)
I'm not sure how you'd save in an apples to apples comparison.
With block, that requires skill and discipline that isn't required to put together foam leggos. Plus again you need something to put the block where it's handy for the mason to get you also need a mixer and someone to help the mason.
Unlike the foam leggos which young no experiance mothers can do.
Edited 7/27/2009 7:20 pm ET by frenchy
"me? I do it live because I understand how to do it safely.."
Years ago I had an electrical crew doing some work in a shop I owned. The lead electrician was working on a wide-belt sander without disconnecting the power. When I said something about it he replied with almost identical words to those you used.
The next day the crew was there working without him. I asked where he was. It seems he had been working on a high voltage box and sustained 3rd degree burns to both arms.
John
Working with electricity is extremely safe as long as none is present..
That's why I start at the outlet and wire to the box rather than the other way.
Making the connection in the box too can be safe if you recognize what you are doing and know how to do it safely.
For example it's impossible to get shocked connecting the ground or neutral wire if the hot wire doesn't have any power. If you first connect the hot wire to the circuit breaker before energizing the circuit again all you are doing is flipping a circuit breaker..
Since I used to work on the systems in flight on my plane. (We never had a down flight because of equipment during both of my tours in Vietnam) because when not flying or asleep I learned from the maintinance crew how to safely repair equipment while in flight. The voltage and amperage I worked on while in flight massively exceeds what one wire techs ever touched..
And at a cost of only $2 per square foot.
Gee boy's let's not get in a p*ssing contest, there are a lot of people out there that can do some mighty fine building and other trades that don't do it for a living. Then their are those that think they can and really can't find their way out of a wet cardboard box. There are those that do it for a living that aren't worth their weight when it comes to craftsman ship. And those that are just masters and that's why they make the good money and are in demand.
I have always been a detail person and I notice things that most people would never notice. I have always been a hands on person and learn more by just watching someone that knows what they are doing.
After I finished sheatrocking this house I hired a man to tape and texture if for me because I am slow at it and he is quick and darn good at it not to mention my elbows hurt so bad from sheatrocking.
If Frenchy did it him self, hey that's great I admire him for doing the work and not sitting on the couch watching the TV and having another moon pie and 48oz pop. A lot of my friends always told me all my hobbies were work, how could I enjoy it? Guess that's why my body talks to me a lot anymore and why I wonder if I really want to take on another house.
But if that's what a man enjoys then enough said!
First off sorry for bringing this stuff into your thread.
Frenchy built himself what is by all accounts a very nice house. Unfortunately he has extrapolated from that experience to come to what many consider some rather suspect conclusions about materials and budgets. If you spend any time here you will find he gives the same advice, advocating the same things regardless of the circumstances, or other more experienced people's objections.
This is nothing personal - he seems like a nice guy, but it is only fair to people like yourself asking questions to point out where he is coming from.
Hey - I baked a cake once for DW's birthday.... think I should go over to the cooking fourm and start handing out advice on baking? ;-)
No...they have sharp knives over there...
Rafael
blenders and meat grinders too....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Heh...heh...heh.....what they have at Over The Fence?
Rafael
hide body stuff...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Lime can be used for purposes other gardening now that I think about it....
Gotta ask the funeral director FIL
Rafael
you missing a MIL???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Dat's funny right there....
Don't think my wife will see it that way tho..
Rafael
That's absolutely true and I appreciate you pointing it out so nicely and fairly.
My approach differs from many here because I do this as a hobby and not a business.. To me the cost of raw materials is of extremely high priority. Not how much labor goes into the work.
Like many people who do things for fun they don't mind playing golf and pay to do so.. If on a budget they will walk rather than rent a cart.
Same with Fishing.. if you consider all of the costs involved in fishing, the license the equipment the bait etc.. Fishing is not a cost effective use of your time. But to those fishermen who enjoy fishing they love it!
I know that the numbers I speak of with regard to costs only applied to me in that time. However I also know that I am not the worlds most experianced carpenter nor the finest cement finisher.
I'm simply a fat old guy who simply wanted something he couldn't afford any other way..
I know much of my efforts can be duplicated by those who want to DIY
"I'm simply a fat old guy who simply wanted something he couldn't afford any other way.. "
You know Frenchy, I think I might have come upon he key to why we disagree. You think of your self as a "fat old " DIYer, but you're not. You are intelligent, talented and experienced - as your house illustrates. Because you don't recognize these qualities in yourself, you think everyone can replicate what you have accomplished.
I mean try honestly, without any sentiment looking at your friends and neighbors. How many of them could build your house without professional help and advice?
It depends on drive and ambition. I mean I have a professional remodeler right behind me who has built some award winning homes. My next door neighbor is more talented than I am and he assisted in building his home. Doing some of the skill work himself rather than having others do it for him.. My sister and her husband built a fabulous home for themselves but in all fairness this is about the third they have done..
Her story really does merit publishing, I mean she and her husband went through a whole Minnesota winter with nothing but a blue tarp on their roof. They slept in a tent on the floor of their living room with a garage furnace pumped into the tent for heat in the 40 below weather we endured.
Now to be fair my neighborhood has multi million dollar homes owned by very successful people so perhaps I differ from the norm..
That aside I know not everyone could or even should attempt to build their own home.. In addition there are those who's time is better spent earning an income than building a house..
Against that yielding up the building experiance puts a person in a subservant position to professionals.. Again there are certainly those who are better off hiring the work done. Yet that can and does put them in a position of dependence which many would resent.
For example; Should your pipe burst and start to spray water all over, how long before you could get a plumber to come and shut the water off and then repair the pipe if you didn't know how to do that yourself?
Or listen to some contractor speak in jargon explaining why you need to spend a massive amount of money doing a repair that seems simple?
No, you're clearly correct some people should not build themselves.. On the other hand some should..
Use plywood grounds for fastening the base. If the walls are 1/2" drywall and the base is 4" then rip plywood 3-1/4" and fasten tight to the floor. The rock will have to be cut the same amount.You will be able to nail the base to the plywood. I have shot 15gauge nails thru metal studs ,but this was for interior walls that were not structural. You say "light gauge" , I suppose the studs are made for structural purposes if you are going to frame the exterior walls with them. The only structural studs I worked with were at least 1/16" thick.I do not recall the gage, I am sure you could not nail into them,you need S-12 screws to fasten sheathing.
I don't know about Texas ,but here in South Jersey an ad in the paper for help will get you 500 replies,per day,maybe per hour.And they all speak english.If you pay their way down I can get you as many carpenters as you need.I am retired but this economy and what it is doing to good people is killing me too.
mike