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There are a number of ways to achieve a level foundation and mudsill.
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Are you talking about the diesel engine?
That is correct. Rather primitive, slow rpm, fuel frugal, long lasting clones of the original British Lister. I would like to use one for a DC charging system.Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
You'd do better asking on an alternative energy forum, like YahooGroups Wastewatts. Very popular there.
PAHS works. Bury it.
Have you seen these?
http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/09919.asp?page=L09919#enginesI think they are pretty cool. Supposedly the 650 rpm ones will run nearly forever.
Exactly; That's why it might make a good powerplant for a DC generator powering a bank of batteries.Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
That's neat - great sound - lot's of videos on YouTube.
Forrest
I've been fascinated by them for years. They sound pretty cool, but with a proper muffler some are fairly quiet.
There are some rusted up old one lungers like that around here that used to be the pumps on wells. Cistern in the attic and the pump engine ran a couple hours a day to fill it with water and recharge the electric batteries for the evening lights.That was 80 years ago. have we come full circle now?I think they were Fairbanks engines then
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
They are as practical now as then. But a 700 lb 6hp engine is not likely to become very popular. The old rusted hunks on the island are probably restorable, but likely gas engines, or gas/kerosene burners.
The Rine river boats have them...
also remote out of the way places...
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
would have thought they'd be right up your alley ..what with your somewhat remote location.
jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
yup...
and windmills... electric and pump...
solar... electric, battery bank maintainers, heat....
and geothermal... serious heat...
fuel fired is lowest on the list....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Well... if you had good enough pump wind turbines, you might not need the rest. Just have the turbine pump the water a couple hundred feet up a hill and then let the water power a turbine on the way back down the hill.
:)jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
Forum for them:
http://www.listerengine.com/
And there are always a few of them for sale on eBay. For instance:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lister-Diesel-Engine-10hp-1000-rpm-single-cylinder-10-1_W0QQitemZ220244584400QQihZ012QQcategoryZ58177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
hmm, wonder how long it runs on 2.5 gal? And how big a generator will it power? 765lbs, don't drop it on your foot.
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jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
Edited 6/16/2008 1:44 am by JohnT8
those are cool looking, and the fuel economy is fantastic. i am not going to trade in my whisper though,
http://www.multiquip.com/Multiquip/2103_504_ENU_HTML.htm
mine is an older version that i got from a dealer who bought it at auction when Guy F Atkinson went out of business. the kubota 3 cyl diesel runs @ 3200 rpm under load but it is very quiet, you almost have to go up and put your hand on it to make sure it is running. very cool.
That's a nice welder. Diesels are getting to be pretty clean and quiet now.
its a good unit, an excellent power generator, but a crummy welder. the old lincoln's with perkins diesel engines are the best "stick" welders, but nobody uses stick anymore. its all about the wire. they are even using pulsed mig wire process' for open root welding in pipelines. stick is going the way of the dinosaur quick.
very few even use diesel anymore, all the manufacturers are pushing the gas engine welders. not even in the same league if you ask me.
Listeroid? that sounds like something they make a cream for.
Yeah, like a sore on the lips from using too much Listerine
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
L is futher up the alphabet than H.....
is a supercision....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
it's a sore you get from talking carp...not the fish.
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
love the starting instructions:
"Swing the exhaust tappet underneath the cylinder exhaust valve to prevent the valve from opening and closing completely. Turn the fuel rack lever to the 'Off' position (handle pointed upward).
Start turning the flywheel quickly.
You should hear the fuel pump triggering with a 'clink' during every other wheel rotation. Several seconds later you should hear the fuel injector triggering with a 'clunk'.
Continue turning with the flywheel with your right hand. With your left hand turn the fuel lever to the 'On' position and swing exhaust tappet out from the cylinder's valve. Turn the flywheel though one more compression stroke and the cylinder should fire.
Walk the crank handle off the crankshaft."
of course, they left out:
clutch heart, pant, curse, repeat
LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
AIn't that the truth. I used one similar to these that a client owned. That unit however was made in the PRC if I recall. Pretty amazing machine.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Does that mean I couldn't just rig it up so that I could attach my 1/2" drill to spin it up? Get her spinning really good and then just disconnect the drill and flip the fuel on :)
jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
Just remember not to wrap your thumb around the drill handle is all.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"my 1/2" drill to spin it up"c'mon John - this is the 21st century - use your impact driver - "there's enough for everyone"
c'mon John - this is the 21st century - use your impact driver -
Actually, I thought that was what kids were for. "spin it a little faster, Bobbie, I've almost got it ready to fire"
jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
I had the benefit of a visit to an Amish man who was a dealer, distributor and a HEAVY user of Listeroids to power all aspects of his farm. He let me start the machine with the hand crank. Very simple.
We opened the exhaust valve, and I hand cranked the machine. Very easy to crank! The key is to get it up to speed. You then close the exhaust valve, and the thing comes to life.
The common method of cooling is a 55 gal. drum, but the heat can be reclaimed via a heat exchanger for other purposes, including domestic hot water.Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
ya - my observation is somewhat tongue in cheek - somewhat - I'm sure a machine in good condition would fire right off, 99% of the time - then there is that cold morning, when you really need/want it....I've had some experience with the old 'hit and miss' American iron from 100 years ago - and just machinery in general - Murphy lives!"there's enough for everyone"
That lister type shown is known as a cold start. I saw one where there is a plug you take out, insert a punk of something in it, light it, screw it in, fire up the engine. Primitive glo plug.Also some have electric start, also there are small gasoline engines used as power units to stat the larger listers. Sometimes the power units are electric start.
"there are small gasoline engines..."ah, yes, the 'pony' engine - they're always dependable....not - but pay no attention to my cynicism...Doud - owner of > 30 engines...."there's enough for everyone"
Heck, with 30 engines, you should find one that will start!
Murphy is dependable though...
Edited 6/16/2008 7:51 am ET by MarkH
"Heck, with 30 engines, you should find one that will start"I'd bet money that 29 of them will start - I'll only have trouble with the one I want to use - "there's enough for everyone"
Great observation- These engines are primarily used in warmer climates. As with any diesel engine, fuel condition is important. In the winter, the fuel must be warmed somehow, probably with residual heat from the engine, to flow. Anti-gels can also be used. Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
then there is that cold morning, when you really need/want it....
tut, tut, tut... you're supposed to let your enthusiasm carry you away. Cold mornings aren't a problem if I've got the Lister in its own little, insulated, heated building. The building never gets cold, so the bio-diesel never gels. The engine never stops, so there aren't any cold starts. And of course I'd be using the Lister as the energy source to keep its building heated... everything in perfect harmony :)
All I need is $10k in equipment and a source of grease/oil seed.
A little "enthusiasm" and all problems seems small!jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
ya know, they are neat enough I oughta have one, just for the collection - "there's enough for everyone"
ya know, they are neat enough I oughta have one, just for the collection -
Hell, you might ALREADY have one! Go check the barn again. Might have an original Lister in there.
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Some of the biodiesel sites make mention of Listers and Listeroids. In theory, you could make your own biodiesel (from oil seed or restaurant grease) and then use it to power your vehicle and your Listeroid. The listeroid powers a generator which powers your house.
So with some equipment, some time, and a source of oil seed/grease, you're now independant living. Just need a garden and a well. ;)
jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
The Listeroids are very popular in third world regions, where there are no public utilities. They are used to power all manner of manufacturing machinery.
There is an accessory available to take self reliance to a new level. A seed crusher is available, which will turn agricutural seeds into oils, which can in turn power the Listeroid. You are left with a by product called seed cake, which can be used to feed livestock. The yield depends on the type of seed used, but I believe canola seed yields almost a gallon of fuel for every 5 gallons of seed. The 6/1 Listeroid's consumption rate is something like .28 gal/hr, so a little seed goes a long way.
Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
There is an accessory available to take self reliance to a new level. A seed crusher is available, which will turn agricutural seeds into oils, which can in turn power the Listeroid.
Canola, sunflower seed, rapeseed (whatever that is) are good oil seeds. Soy beans are a ways down the list, but that is of course what the folks in the midwest want to use.
Considering the amount of expensive equipment involved, you'd have to be a farmer to go the seed route.
But you can buy the presses on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-1ton-Oil-press-extruder-extractor-make-biodiesel_W0QQitemZ300233416633QQihZ020QQcategoryZ1269QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
JT8- Thanks for the seed press link. One should not forget that while there is a capital outlay for the engine, this diesel should last 40 years, is very easy to repair, and there is an ample supply of spare parts available.Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
"...ample supply of spare parts ..."are the units we are discussing made in china? - I realize that they are simple enough that most working parts could be fabricated in a decent machine shop - just wondering about metric threads and things like that - "there's enough for everyone"
"are the units we are discussing made in china?"
I believe Lister engines are made in GB, with some clones made in India & elsewhere.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
the original Listers are from GB, but they are probably hard to find. If this link is correct, they stopped making then in '87. The "listeroids" can come from China, India, or wherever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_A_Lister_and_Company
jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
Edited 6/16/2008 12:59 pm by JohnT8
I believe that most of the Lister clones (Listeroids) come from India. The original Listers came from GB (India was a colony). When India achieved independence, the supply of Listers was cut off, copycat manufacturing began. Quality control of the Listeroids varies widely, however.Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
So have you started on the bio-diesel setup yet? I don't care how efficient a listeroid is, if you're paying $4.75/gal, it isn't going to be afordable.
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Remember, the engine runs for 1hr. on 28/100 of a gallon of fuel. If it powers a 4000 watt dc generator for 1hr which in turn charges a bank of batteries can any of you engineer types tell me how much it costs (operating costs, not equip) to produce electricity, which will be extracted from the battery pack via an inverter?Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
Well, not to pop your balloon, but let's say you're running flat out for one hour and you generate 4 kw during that hour. You'll get closer to 3300 watts continuous, but let's use your 4 kw figure. That's 4 kwh, during which you consume 0.28 gallons of $5/gallon diesel. It'll actually be higher than that, but let's take your figure at 0.28 * $5.00 = $1.40 So far, so good.
Now, divide $1.40 by 4 kwh and you're paying in fuel cost alone . . . $0.35/kwh.
Note those figures are very optimistic and don't take into account the likely 80% efficiency of the generator, conversion efficiency of your inverter, absorption efficiency of your batteries, capital and maintenance costs, etc.
When you acount for all those factors, it makes it uneconomical to generate your own electricity unless there is simply no other choice. Or, unless you are recovering the waste heat from the exhaust and cooling water. Then it's marginal, at best, but nevertheless, a fun project.
But if it's something you enjoy doing, then have at it!
Quinn (two 'roids at home)
Dear quinnf. Thank you for your response. I can accept your math, however please keep in mind that this proposal is not for a typical AC generator running flat out all day, which we are all familiar with.
The project proposes to use a Lister (slow speed diesel) to run a DC generator to charge a bank of batteries.
If the generator is rated at 4000 watts, is that KWH, or are the batteries able to absorb the charge quicker than that?
While I know that being a Fine Homebuilding reader makes you qualified to respond on this matter, can you cite engineering data to reinforce your point of view.
I realize that there are transfer efficiencies that must also be addressed.
More opinions please!Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
But still, what's the other choice? Energy cost is energy cost. KWH is KWH. Charging the batteries at ~$.12 KWH from the local utility is lots cheaper than the diesel calculation - unless, of course, there is no access to utility power.
Whatever power you put into the batteries, utility power is almost always your cheapest bet, unless you have fully amortized solar or windmill or biodiesel refinery or your own hydro dam.
City natural gas could conceivably come close, comparing BTU directly to watts, but converting the gas BTUs to heat to mechanical energy in an engine, to drive an electrical generator, wastes a lot.
Forrest
<edit> I am an engineer - and a BT groupie
Edited 6/16/2008 9:27 pm ET by McDesign
what about solar hot water? did you see the article at build it solar about the guy who made his own super insulated hot water storage tank, and then heats his house all winter plus year round hot water.
i think even fine homebuildings article on it said solar hot water was the biggest bang for the buck. the problem with energy is the cost keeps rising.
Wow, you're buying a battery bank too? Wheew, max out that Titanium Visa!
As far as I can see it, there is 3 levels to this hobby.
Level 1: Getting the equipment setup to create your own bio-diesel (from grease/seed-oil). The price probably varies widely, but you might easily drop $2k by the time you've got an efficient setup.
Level 2: Buying a Lister/listeroid and a generator to create electricity. You're also going to need a couple switches or something to automatically switch between the generator and the grid power. Ideal situation would let you feed excess back to the grid and generate a credit with your power company. I have NO idea what this level would cost $5k? Sounds like you're adding a battery bank, more $$.
Level 3: Producing your own fuel source. So planting a seed crop and harvesting it and processing it into the raw oil which you use in Level 1. If you were a farmer or knew a farmer you could make an arrangement with, you might be able to do this, but once again, you're probably spending multiple $k.jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
if your going to get batteries talk to frenchy, he can tell you how to get used electric forklift batteries and make them work/keep them running for way cheap if you believe anything frenchy says.
it sounded good to me though, i would definitely talk to him if i were going to do it.
i have thought of creating a small home boiler that produces electricity and heat, obviously an expensive undertaking, but if you could be hooked up to the grid and selling the electricity you generate back to the utility, if you run the numbers and set it up so you generate the amount you use per year as energy prices rise it might well be worthwhile.
probably the best bang for the buck is the solar water heater, and a home heated with a radiant system. build it solar has an article on how to.
probably the best bang for the buck is the solar water heater, and a home heated with a radiant system. build it solar has an article on how to.
The best bang is insulation. But after that... yes probably solar water heat.jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
saw a thing on tv this weekend, the speed channel was on in the background i think it was some show about how to modify your homemade monster truck 4x4 thing,
anyway they had these guys on there showing the set up and recipe for making your own, and suggested that you get several buddies to go in on it, imagine yourself hanging in the garage with your friends on the weekends making your own bio-diesel for about $1.25 a gallon? narrator says you would have easy time getting friends to share cost at $1.25 a gallon.
then at the end of the segment they cut away to the hot chick and she delivers the disclaimer about how if you do that (make your own fuel) you do get a tax credit for something or other, but it is the law that you have to pay the appropriate road tax for the fuel that you make.
yeah right, i can see people doing that, oh by the way here is the $347 worth of road tax i owe for this week. i wonder what renostinky thinks about that? he would probably send it in since he is against receiving unemployment benefits.
segundo--not sure why you sent this to me as I haven't participated in this thread. Anyway, it made me read it. Pretty interesting stuff.
whoops
First order of business... change the color of your tagline so it does not look like part of your post each time... also try entering a few spaces above it too.
now... as for efficient engines, the coolest and most efficient thing I've ever seen is a "hit and miss" engine. It'll run all day on a quart of gas... I've seen a number of them powering ice cream churns at county fairs. they are an old engine.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Thanks for the tip, Pete- It;s supposed to be green now- did it work?Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
Take 2- Is it blue now?Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
LOL... yeah, it's blue now.... You can go back and edit it and add a space or two above it so that it automatically seperates from the text of your post.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Ut oh, it's the sig line police! jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Yeah, I love those icecream putterers.
chugga, chugga, shshsh, POW!, sput, sput, chugga, chugga, sshh, ....
Did/does John Deere make those?
There's always one or two at the fleamarket in Rogers.
We don't go there much anymore since they declared our (and everyone elses') pooch canine non gratis. The nerve! I bought the dog there. And they tell me the dog isn't welcomed.