” I think it was just assumed that a 16 penny nail was strong enough.â€
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/jun/29/builders_review_methods_after_collapse_deck/?city_local
This guy should be ran out of business.
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Blaming it on the lack of requirements in the code was pretty pathetic. Blame it on a lack of a concience.
What pissed me the most was a comment he made something to the effect that back in 2000 "we/they just didn't know any better"
That's a load of BS if I've ever heard one... I guess this was the thrid or so house he built back in the early 90's... also notice the lack of flashing over the rim....
to be fair.. he did offer to rebuild the deck at no cost to the homeowner, however I still think he's a hack
Edited 6/29/2006 12:56 pm ET by CAGIV
But you know, building codes are "unconstitutional", and there really isn't any need to force people to build to any particular set of standards........now, where did I read that again????
you read it here somewhere, but if you're thinking I was the one supporting the idea that codes are un-constitutional, you're wrong.
Beyond that, it's not really a building code issue per-se so much as it is an issue of pure ignorance.
No, it wasn't directed at you, it was a general comment....
I see codes as a mechanism to enforce lack of ignorance, because as this example proves eloquently, some people do anything, simply because code does not prevent it. The only reason these idiots started using lag bolts is because the building inspectors started forcing them to.
Beyond that, it's not really a building code issue per-se so much as it is an issue of pure ignorance.Exactly! I'm not comfortable with a house that meets minmum standards per code anyway, nobody should be really, and to say something like "well, it wasn't in the code" is weak. IMO, a house I would consider built well far exceeds the minimum code requirements anyway.
The way I read it, he did build that deck to the code in force at the time. <G>
One problem with codes is that the phrase, "It's built to code", is the first refuge of the bad builder.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
One problem with codes is that the phrase, "It's built to code", is the first refuge of the bad builder.
Wisely said Andy.
But you know, building codes are "unconstitutional", and there really isn't any need to force people to build to any particular set of standards........now, where did I read that again????
Constitutionality has nothing to do with whether or not something is good or bad, needed or not...
The guy that started that thread deleted his post before I could read it, so I don't know where he was coming from, but regardless, just because something is necessary and/or good does not mean that it is permitted by the constitution.
In the past we've passed ammendments for things we realized were necessary, but not at that point constitutional.
For the record, I'm not sure either way on the constitutional muster of building codes, but I imagine even if there weren't legally mandated building codes, there would be some other agency to step in to fill the void (something like Underwriter's Laboratories) & that it would be difficult to obtain mortgages & HO insurance without some sort of inspection process to ensure that their investment isn't going to fall apart or there won't be excessive claims.
Regardless, I feel that building standards ARE important, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is constitutional.
I find that whenever someone starts an "unconstitutional" discussion, it usually hinges on the fact that he/she doesn't want anyone telling him/her what to do, and that thread pretty much evolved into an argument that any builder should be allowed to build whatever way they wanted, because inspectors were useless.....so I was taking the opportunity to enjoy the humor in the fact that some builders want the "freedom" to do whatever they "think" is okay; other people think it's unacceptable when a deck falls down because a builder "thought" that one nail was enough.....it's just prettty funny, in my opinion. Everyone wants the freedom to do whatever they think is acceptable, and then everyone gets upset when stuff turns out to be crappy because builders don't care.
It's quite funny, actually.
back in 2000 "we/they just didn't know any better"
Did you see one of the later comments, by a poster "plumberscrack" to the effect that lags were required, but the inspectors were allowed to "look the other way"?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"to be fair.. he did offer to rebuild the deck at no cost to the homeowner, however I still think he's a hack"
Niel,
Long time no speak.
The only reason he probably did that is 'cause he doesn't stand a chance in court if he's sued, and that would cost him more.
Jon B.
yeah, where have you been?
That's true in regard to the law-suit..
yeah, where have you been?"
Flying (private pilot) and working on the house. I presently have a crew of three to manage, so BT is not high on the list when I'm shelling out $75.00/hour on them.
How's the job and Shannon?
Jon B.
Jobs going well, wife is doing well...
pretty happy at the moment... looking forward to the next 5 days off though.
I didn't know you were a pilot, flying for fun or do you do charter flights and the like?
I didn't know you were a pilot, flying for fun or do you do charter flights and the like?"
Neil,
Just for fun. I fly a C172 out of KUES (Crittes Field, Waukesha WI).
FWI, I'll be working the flightline this year at EAA AirVenture at Oshkosh, WI, which if you are unfamiliar, ....for one week is the worlds busiest airport.
10,000 planes landing in a couple of days. I will be one of many, guiding the planes off the runway and directing them on the taxiway to the tie-downs.
If I'm real lucky, I'm hoping to score a ride/ co-pilot something fast, ie. military.
JB
The last time I was at Oshkosh, maybe 12 years ago, I was cleared to land long when I was about 10 ft off the runway. With instructs to clear as sone as possible because there was a P-51 being cleared to land behind me. As I faired there was was still a plane on the RW in front of me. I think I made the turn off doing about 50.
"The only reason he probably did that is 'cause he doesn't stand a chance in court if he's sued, and that would cost him more."I doubt that he could be sued.It is a 12 year old deck.
why couldn't the lady bring a civil suit against him?
Bill-
He likely could not be sued for breach of contract, but could be sued for tort (negligence).
Your comment about it being a 12 year old deck leads me to think that you are referring to a statute of limitations, but in NY the statute is 3 years from the date of the accident. We had that happen many many times with architects and engineers - 20 years after the design, there's a problem and they are brought in to a case.
The time for breach of contract is 6 years here, sometimes measured from the date of substantial completion, sometimes from the date of the co, sometimes from the last day on the job, sometimes from the date of the "breach" which is decided by the jury, no firm rule.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I was thinking about a warantee on the deck. In a lot of states it is 1 year for homes, but I have heard that some are upto 10 years.You are right about the tort, I just wasn't thinking that way.At one time there was a push to limit any liability for a manufacture on aircraft to 30 years IIRC, but it never pasted.
I can't believe he was using nails on the ledger until 2000.
I don't think I, or my dad, ever used nails for a ledger; always lags. And that's going back 30 years, at least.
you're right- the guy's a hack.
I remember my dad using lags on a deck ledger in 1956. It was an all redwood deck.
-- J.S.
True, bolts can be better, but I know lots of decks that were put up over the years with just nails where the decks stayed up until the wood gave out. It's partly dependant on how many nails and what they went into. The photo of the board with the nail sticking through it makes it look like he wasn't far from the truth when he said ...use a 16d nail... Maybe if there were a few more, the deck would have remained where it belonged. (G)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
We've worked on some of the houses this guy's built, I'm not entirely surprised by the lack of bolts...
And it's not that un-common, I've looked at quite a few projects on exteriors that get me under some decks and quite a few don't have bolts.. I always tell the customer they need to take care of it...
I don't know about you guys but I use bolts instead of lags. I like the Simpson product that bolts on to the floor joist and butts up to band joist inside the house with a hole for the bolt.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/ltt-mtt-htt.html
On my house I attached the deck joists to the pt rim or band joist. Before that I put some pretty big lags at a downward angle into the squash blocks on the floor trusses in addition to a serious nailing pattern.
Mine is a little different as it has a 20 by 12 covered section with two doubled 2x12 beams to support the roof trusses for the covered portion. They are bolted and let in to two 6 x6 posts on the outside and tied in to a nest of 4 2x6 studs with the center ones cut down to make a pocket and nailed and pinned with rebar. If this thing comes off the bulldozer will be the repair tool of choice.
Bob
Did you notice the railing inboard (to right in picture) of the stairs? It appears to only have the pickets supporting it. Does not do much for lateral stability.
I didn't notice it at first, unfortunetly though it's not that un-common of a detail around here... you know with 4x4's or 6x6's costing so much and all...
My sister's mountain resort house only had uprights larger than the pickets at the ends. The spacing of the pickets was about 8" also. No big deal, just a 25' drop down the mountainside. When my son was going to take our first granddaughter who was 1 at the time up for a weekend I put a picket in between each one and added a screw to the bottom of each existing picket.
A little two year old from our church backed up to a railing and went through it backwards 5' landing on rocks. They took her to one er and then to another for an MRI, Doc said it had been an adult it would have killed them, fortunately all she had was a couple of knots on the back of her head. The restaurant offered them a $50 gift certificate. I started to tell them that I would let my lawyer and the county inspector use it (as they were delivering some papers).
I see that the city/newspaper is drumming up some more future business for you ."Check each post supporting the deck to ensure it is not in direct contact with the soil. Posts should be surrounded by concrete, otherwise they are susceptible to rotting."
16d common nails for deck ledgers have been specified by architects in many $1m house plans. With small decks, something other than osb rimboard to nail into, a design that doesn't pull away from the house, and lot of ringshank nails I wouldn't loose sleep over a nailed on ledger. The low pull out resistance and near zero shear strength upon withdrawl have to be considered.
Having said that, freestanding decks are about the only thing I'm interested in building for long-term survival, and Timberlock screws or through bolts are dirt cheap.
Good building
I clicked on this thread and saw it was you as the poster and immediately thought about those decks that you talked about at the apartment complex that you lived at.
When do you suppose they will show up in the paper!
Doug
oh no doug... they re-built those.... they look REAL safe now...
oh well, not my liability.
I read about a deck collapse in this neck of the woods (Rochester, Twin Cities, and surrounding areas) maybe once a year. I'm guessing that half are primarily due to overloading (hot tub, 50 people jumping up and down, etc) and half are due to the all-too-common practice of simply nailing the ledger to the building. (Of course, even in the overloading cases there is usually some structural defect, but not as egregious.)
In most of these cases the deck clearly is not constructed in compliance with local code. Some cases, of course, are due to DIY installation without permit/inspection, but most appear to be contractor-installed decks, presumably inspected.
I think that a big problem is that HOs, contractors, and inspectors alike regard decks as "temporary" and "non-structural" and not worthy of reasonable care during design and construction. (Also, I suspect, inspectors simply get weary of red-tagging every second deck they inspect, and then having to defend that action against builder/HO complaints.)
Of course, any deck built by a BTer is more likely to be OVERDESIGNED and OVERBUILT -- it'll last longer than the house.
My opinion of the best way to mount a deck rim to the house...
I also think there should be deck support from underneath, near the house, even if you do mount the rim to the house this way...
View Image
Welcome to America.The best republic money can buy.
This has probably been dealt with before, but why the second ledger?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
He keeps two sets of books for everything.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Two sets of books ?
Welcome to America.The best republic money can buy.
A little accounting humor.Another one is:What do accountant's use for birth control?Their personality.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
That new outer rim joist on the house gives you something more solid to work with. And adding that, and flashing it the way I show gives you the least amount of intrusion into the house. You flash over that, and it pretty much becomes a part of the house. The wall. And the siding system.It also makes it almost impossible for water to penetrate into the house.Then the deck rim itself is held out from there by at least 3/8 to half an inch by stacking washers and nuts in between.If you just stick the deck rim onto the side of the house, no matter how well you flash, you are going to be penetrating the flashing all over the place for your hardware, and you will be trapping moisture right up against the house.
Welcome to America.The best republic money can buy.
luka-
How come you didn't draw in the washers?
Beware. RFID is coming.
I did.About halfway through I realized they were too small, and decided to just leave them be. Nobodies gonna use my pic as an exact diagram anyway.
Politics: The blind insulting the blind.
Darn, I just finished my deck an hour ago just like you drew it. Now I have to take it all apart to put in the stinking washers.
ROFLMAO !!
Politics: The blind insulting the blind.
Are you sure?
Beware. RFID is coming.
Blow it up. You'll see them.=0)
Politics: The blind insulting the blind.