I cut a 25 pair phone line in 2 places while digging up old posts. The line was within 4″s of the post and less than 10″ deep.I had the locator come out and spray but he did not spray for this line.He sprayed on the other side of the fence line a little over 2′ from the fence this was my HO feeder line.
Bell South came out said the locator blew it ,called him ,he came out, he said he missed it and his company was probably going to eat it. His boss comes out and looks tells the Bell South guys I don’t care if he did miss it the fence guy (me) let the locator dates expire. 14 calander days and it was the 15th day.
So now I am looking at a1000$ repair bill and little recourse.The pi..er of the whole deal is how careful i was and still hit lines I didn’t know existed.
ANDYSZ2
I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Replies
locator dates expire. 14 calander days and it was the 15th day
That doesn't make much sense to me........Is he implying that someone could have put a new line in since the locator marked the property? Within one day? They would have to sue me......
Semper Fi
No, that you have 14 calander days and then their not responsible unless you have them come out and relocate.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
say you dug the hole yesterday
You scare me, that is what I would have told them from the beginning myself. Prove it otherwise.
Semper Fi
I'm with you and BB!
They'd have to take me into a courtroom where hopefully the judge had a little more common sense.
Doug
I would have had my wife call. Guaranteed we wouldn't pay a dime and probably got free phone service for a year.
Rock the Tipi!
A guy I know cut the phone line digging a post hole in his own back yard. This happened 3-4 years ago.He says he got a pretty hefty bill from the phone co and simply turned it over to his homeowner's insurance and they paid it.^^^^^^
SNAFU (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
Yeah I will consider submitting it to my liability ins. co. as a last resort as there is a 500$ deductable and I don't want to lose my coverage over a small claim which they are known to do.
Boss your right you call it in again every ten days and they come out and relocate I am waiting on them now.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
LOL. My mom is the same way. When I was a tyke and HAD to be with her on "her" missions I could have crawled in a box. I hated to sit next to her through all that crap. But then, she got what she wanted.
Semper Fi
That's the way mine is. Me? I'd jump in the ditch and do a midnite abortion on it. She would make them come out and finish the fence while they were splicing it back.
Rock the Tipi!
I understand what you are saying...... What I am trying to say is that they are responsible for the first 14 days as you said previously. It being the fifteenth day someone MUST have came within the one day and put in a new line. Otherwise they would still be responsible for the sh!tty locator job within the 15 days. Obviously they have no accountability for themselves. Otherwise I am missing the point. As I said they would have to sue me. Take good photo's and a good account of the situation and go to court if they in fact try and charge you for the costs.
Semper Fi
Edited 6/18/2006 11:09 am ET by Jarhead
Is he implying that someone could have put a new line in since the locator marked the property?
The song-and-dance I've been offered is that the paint can fade/wash away or be mown off in that amount of time, therefor the marked lines might not be in the correct spot.
My phone guys used to use induction gear to spot lines, but they claim so much is f/o any more, they just measure off the pavement & spray. Our NG guys have actually used a special tape that they can locate. But, everybody else--anything within a backhoe's length (call it two fathoms) you have to just hand-dig and hope.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The song-and-dance I've been offered is that the paint can fade/wash away or be mown off in that amount of time, therefor the marked lines might not be in the correct spot.
I can see your point in the time limit. A lot of this "to me" is common sense. Obviously in real time this is not the case. If I were going to dig a hole/trench and called a locator and he in fact marked the property to be dug, but I couldn't get to the job for sometime for whatever reason and the lines disappeared due to weather or mowing, I would call them back. What I have done in the past is keep the lines current myself until I can get to them and dig. I just do not understand how you can be responsible as the "digger"for something for something you have no control over. Why even call the locator in the first place?
Semper Fi
for something for something you have no control over. Why even call the locator in the first place
Well, I'm guessign the practical answer has to do with a bunch of mid-level guys in a downtown office someplace, all brought to gether by PHB because they already had productive jobs, and there was some haggling over how long to make a mark-out good "for." The rep from the marking companies was probably being bent over about not being paid until the markings were made; the utility guys probably wanted to make great noises about how much it would "cost" them when (if) inconsistancies wer found.
Finally, after 1600 or so, a whole day (or more) lost, somebody just said, "How 'bout we just make it good for two weeks?" Everyone, tired, wore out, behind at their "real" job, just glommed on that as something they could take back to their bosses, and the rest is history . . .
The "trick" of it, is that probably 80-90% time the mark-outs are 100% right. It's just that the ones that are wrong are never just a little bit wrong.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The old marking paint could last for years since it was real paint. A few years ago, San Jose started requiring a chalk paint that would wear or wash away pretty quickly.
Part of the two week "life" of a locate is to prevent engineers from calling for locates for design purposes. Around here, they ask for a permit number when you call in a locate. If you don't have one, they tell you to call back when you do.
to prevent engineers from calling for locates for design purposes
I never thought of that <evil grin>.
(Been through the wringer with CE/survey outfits going "whups, what site utilities?")
Some other folk were asking if it were a regional thing about the time limit. Every single time I've called they told me on the phone before the mark out, that it was only good for 14 days, and on day 15, a renewal would cost me (but 14 & under was no charge).
Now, if it's "residential" you don't necessarily need a permit number--as they want "civilians" to call before they plant abunch of trees, or poke in a fence on top of the gas meter. If it's "commercial," they want a permit number (but, I think that has to do with the billing for the locate). For some commercial, though, I've had to get the line designer/new work tech/engineer to come out and mark from their plans for new-for-my-building stuff.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Mac -
During the telecom boom, some of the streets looked like psychedelic art because of all the locate marks. In fact, that was one of the reasons that San Jose required chalk based marking paint - people were really annoyed with all the painted up streets - lol.
I was talking to a public works engineer one day and mentioned that I got much of my drawing info from the old locate marks instead of spending time and money collecting records from several utilities. He got a little huffy about that but had to agree that it was unlikely that anything had been moved since the locate had been done - lol.
San Jose even began requiring that we clean up the locate marks after the work was completed. On one job, we placed about a mile of fiber in the phone company structure. Our crew painted one manhole identification in a street for a manhole buried in ivy behind the curb. We placed the cable, cleaned up the mark, and went on our merry way. A few days later, I got a call from the inspector wanting to know when we were going to clean up the locate marks. I told him that we had cleaned up our mark and that the others were for someone else. He claimed that they were our responsibility. That argument escalated to the office of the public works director who finally agreed that we shouldn't have to clean up after someone else.
did one guy do it all ?
here each utility sends out someone diffrent and they each mark what it is . or they call and tell you there is nothing in your area .
One guy for the phone line and cable, he and I went over the fact that I was taking up all 450' of fence and I did a whole property locate.
The problem is you are held responsible from the call in for repair time back to the time the locator was called.7 neighbors had lost service and they all called Bell South.2 of the neighbors work out of the home on DSL and were not happy.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
I saw this moive... even remembered to pick up a T shirt at the consession stand...
phone line is suppose to be 30" down min...
the locator folks missed it... plain and simple....
they're buying...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
That is a good point. I wonder what the min. feet for the phone cable is supposed to be buried? In his area? There is a possibility the phone company is liable due to the depth of the phone cable being only 10".
Semper Fi
You would think there would be at least a 2' minimum but another feeder line that didn't get marked was actually sitting above ground with a bunch of pine needles over it. When I found it I thought I bet I cut that so went back and looked at my previous post holes and found the 25 line bundle cut in 2 of the holes.At first I thought it was irrigation but could tell the yard wasn't irrigated so got a brush and cleaned it up and saw the shielding and knew I was fixing to have a bad day.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Just for future reference - Around here I'm prtty sure a phone call to the locator sevice will get you an extension. I don't know how long or if they have to come out again. But it might be worth checking on next time...
I was once arrested for walking in someone else's sleep.
Try and call your local building inspector and ask what is code for local utilities, they may know. Calling blind to the phone company may also get your answer but they might be biased in their answer. I have had the same problems with local cable companies installing their cables. You are at the mercy of the installer. I have cut these a couple of times due to ill depth. But have never been asked to pay.
Semper Fi
Yeah I tried to look it up on their website with no luck.I may be blowing this all out of proportion but the locator's boss is the one who has got me worried.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Technically, they're right. The markings are only "good" for the 14 day window. On the other hand, a little common sense is in order here. Obviously, the locator totally missed the cable and only an idiot would try to claim that the cable you cut was placed after the locate. The depth was also too shallow, but that's on whoever placed the cable and that may have been several years ago.
Get your lawyer to contact the locate company and offer to sue. They'll probably decide that it really isn't worth the fight.
Consider yourself lucky that it was only a 25 pair cable. When I was in the telecom business, a friend got involved in a job that cut a 3600 pair cable right outside of the central office. Half of downtown San Jose lost phones, ISDN's, and T1's for about 24 hours. It wasn't pretty!! - lol. He was sweating bullets for a few days until it was verified that the cable had been mismarked. The phone company had done the locate and ate a big one on that deal.
I prefer my cutting the main trunk line to McDill AFB, hitting their JP4 supply line and a high pressure 24" sewerage in the span of several hours...
shallow depth...
mismarked...
next to painting I don't plant trees any more either...
what a weekend...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Imerc -
Now THAT would be a really bad day!! - lol
When I worked as an OSP Engineer for Qwest, I was giving some HQ types a tour of a build we were doing in an expressway. Uniformed cops at the intersections, flashing lights, lanes coned off, trucks, tractors, backhoes running and a boring machine going full boogie. They were lapping it up when all hell broke loose - a backhoe cut an unmarked fiber that was about 6" under the pavement. No conduit - just a fiber cable.
They were a little annoyed when the superintendent and I hustled them out of the area. He was using language that even I hadn't heard since the Navy - lol.
Back in college I worked with a group who did locates and buried coax for the cable monopoly.
At least in our town, once the phone and cable is on your property it doesn't matter how deep it is. Burial was sometimes done less than a foot because of frost and or rock under the surface.
What was surprising was the number of shallow electric and gas lines. While trenching and crossing a locate for one of those we would hand dig a few feet on each side just in case.
There is a lot of blue sky in the fine print for those locate marks! We only guaranteed being within 3' of the actual line.
I've been through this on several occasions - both as an observer on the construction site, and as the cutter :-) When I cut the both phone and cable at my own house (at different times), they were understanding and I paid no fee (my service only). Back then I used to think these utility companies were your friend and that they wanted people's business.
In my area though, once your ticket expires it's your fault no matter what. For example, one of my subs recently had to pay a hefty repair bill for a cut power line on an expired ticket. I used to not save my ticket number until I got the full expierence of how the process works. :-)
Here there is no minimum depth to burry phone or cable. Gas and electric is different.
BTW - were you digging by hand or with a machine?
Maybe you can negotiate with the Phone Co and the bill can be split between your expired locate ticket (you), and the lousy locate job (Locater) - that seems fair, especially since the locate guy himself already admitted some fault.
Going forward, here, sometimes, you can save money (assuming you knew you cut the line) by leaving it exposed (no digging necessary for the utility) and calling in a cut - not an outage. Sounds like the neighbors killed that possibility though.
You are lucky you didn't cut a fiber line... that would have been more $$$
I was digging by hand mainly breaking old concrete with tamper bar then pulling it out with posthole diggers and I called in the cut but still had to do some digging to work on splices and those waterproof slices are gonna cost a pretty penny.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
The NEC has NOTHING in it about what the utility companies can do including depth of cables.If there is any regulation on this it would via there tariffs, the state Public Service Commision (goes by a number of different names) or the local franchise contract with the city/county.A friend of mine worked for the state highway department and they had a ditch where Telco has a cable just laying in it.They complained about it several times and the phone company said that they would fix it if and when they wanted to and there was nothing that the state could do.The state notified then that on a certain date they where cleaning out the ditch with a backhoe cable or no cable.They did and after they where done there was no cable no more, but a bunch of telco trucks running a new one.BTW, I had a locate at my place a several years ago and they wanted to know what part of the property. I said the NE corner along the driveway to the house.I happened to be home because I caught him doing the SE corner.Around here, at least for residential they use a 3rd party company that does the location, strictly using tracers, for all CONTRACTED UTILITIES.I live in a small city of about 350 houses and the locator does not do the city water or sewer.One option would be to tell the phone company that you won't pay and that they will have to sue you.Then, if they do, you counter sue the locator company.Also you might fill a report with the state PSC.I wish I had the story, but a couple of weeks ago I saw one where the phone company was getting ready to install a new cable and had dug up the easement in someones back yard.But started and left the cable and did not come back for a week or two.By that time the cable was gone. The phone company billed them for something like $35,000 and file police charges.After the media got on it the phone company said "ops" that was only an internal charge and should not have been billed.
I cut a gas line once. There weren't any gas markings. Everything else was marked. The gas company tried to bill me because they said I should have called when I didn't see any flags. I told them that since I didn't see any flags, I figured there weren't any line! They still kept billing me. Eventually they gave up.
It is my understanding that they can only charge you if you were using power equipment.
blue
I am an excavation contractor in Indiana. The rule here is if you hit a utility line whethere you were using a machine or hand digging you are getting a bill. If youre locates were done wrong and you hit a line youre getting a bill. If you hit a line that is abandoned and someone from a utility company has to come inspect and verify you are getting a bill.
Notice the trend?? No matter what we get the bill and it is our burden to prove that someone else is responsible because we did the damage.
On a side note does it seem like the locate companies are in league with the utilities in these situations? Who do the locaters work for? Who cuts their check?
Justin
Here in CA, most locate work is contracted out to independent companies. They often use utility maps to mark the locations - and those maps are notoriusly bad. On one job, I watched two clowns marking water lines from a moving pickup. One guy was looking at the map and driving slowly while his partner was hanging out of the door spritzing blue paint.
One fiber company I know of shows a cable on the south side of a major street in Oakland. I know for a fact that the cable is on the north side of the street. The same company has maps showing a cable two feet off the face of the curb in another city. Their cable is actually encroaching on private property behind the curb. The last I heard about this, they were being sued.
Another weirdness is that there's no requirement to belong to USA (Underground Service Alert). On one job, I found one of their manholes but no locate marks. I called their boss and he told me that they didn't belong to USA but would really appreciate it if we didn't cut one of his cables. I told him when we planned to dig and suggested that he have a splicing crew on standby since we wouldn't waste time probing and hand digging in "clear" areas. When the crew rolled in, his paint was still wet! - lol
they can only charge you if you were using power equipment
I've heard that, too--but they are the Utility and you're not.
One of my projects, the clients decided to hire out new fencing separately. Fence guys were using two-man auger to make holes. One hole, it gets all stinky--so they come to my Segundo to see if he knew from ¿que paso? He guesses, from the smell, and the location on the site it was a sewer line of some sort, so he calls the Sewer Repair number and goes back to his work.
Sewer guys show up, look down the hole (first folk to think to do that, actually) and they all bolt and call the FD on the radio and get Dispatch to call LSG--the NG supplier--too sweet.
I check the machine coming in from Austin, and get to go "rescue" my segungo as the FM has showed up and is hassling my Segundo for "illegally digging" (it was a nothing-went-right sort of day; the NG guys drove up wind and their detector had them tell the FD to evacuate about 6 blocks worth of folks for no purpose). So, "the officials" were in a snit, and needed a "snit-ee" something fierce. Luckily, I had the project folder in the pilot's briefcase with me. Yep, that's my permit, here's the limits of my work. Here's the name, address, and contact information for the owners. See, they hired the fence guys. Where are the fence guys? Dunno. Looked to have vamanos-ed when all the muni equipment showed up.
Line turns out to have been a bit of unlicensed plumbing to supply a nearby house with gas. Last I heard LSG was still trying to "do" the fence company for using "power" equipment on an unmarked line.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
a friend has some property close to town, Its a fairly new cattle farm, about ten years old. its on a corner of two main roads. One day we cut a major trunk line for the phone company. They tried to get us to pay. but there was no right of way agreement. The corner road was over 2000 feet away. they cut the corner to save wire.
The corner road was over 2000 feet away. they cut the corner to save wire
"Can't see it from my house" perhaps?
Better than finding the hoof-and-mouth burn pit on the former dairy operation subdivided up for new houses, I'll bet, though.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You are lucky you didn't cut a fiber line... that would have been more $$$
http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=f4cd87fa-0abe-421a-00fa-b559e8c121ee&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf
Someone just had to try it!
Everybody has been going on on how they shoulda/woulda/coulda missed this time frame and the real question I have is:
When the guy came out to mark it, did he TELL you that it was only good for 2 weeks? I have NEVER had one of those companies EVER tell me anything other than "sorry that the weren't here yesterday, like the should have been". I may not call the locating service as much as others, but I have done it as least 20 times in the last 10 years.
And, I have been "graced" with finding the phone companies' cable that "should not be coming from that direction"
Use the "ignorance card" if you have to. It may be the only time you ever get to use it. ;~)>
In my case, the customer service phone agent (Digsafe - http://www.digsafe.com) told me that the permit was good for 14 days and that I should contact the office if I needed more time. They'll come out and remark. I was expected to pre-mark the general areas of excavation.
The locator marked the utility lines with paint & little flag markers (similar to what landscape companies use).
I wouldn't expect the locator person to tell you the rules. The rules should have been explained to the person who requested the utility locator services.
When I lived in Anchorage, I needed to put in a new fence. The locate guys came out and painted up the yard real well. Of course nobody painted the line laying on the ground (Anchorage has miles and miles of phone line laying on the ground) I ask the guy about the above ground line and he sez it's old and abandoned. (you have to love mowing with a useless cable in your yard for several years).
So I install new fence with no problems and decide to get rid of the old abandoned line.
Bad move.
After 4 days of broken promises for repair service I get kinda nasty on the cell phone and tell them it has to be fixed now. Well "now" is the 4th of july. I get the repair guy out who is thrilled with the triple time.
Bill comes in and I call and tell them about the bum locate job. they blow me off and keep sending bills.
Finally I called the president of the phone company (of course I wasn't allowed to speak to her) and told her receptionist to schedule her for an on site meeting with the cable locate guys myself and my lawyer and myself at my house. 10 minutes later I get a call from the phone companies lawyer.
Long story short bill canceled
You know, now that I think of it I have told them I need it marked because the excavator is coming out in 2 days or I need to dig up a broken main line or something like that, but they have neve told me about the 14 day rule over the phone, either. Is this an East Coast vs. West Coast thing?
Guess I learned something new...again. Better than the hard way, as usual. Gotta love this place...
14 days here too...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!