Ok, here’s the deal. I live in an 80 year old house, and I’ve replaced most of the systems, such as the HVAC and plumbing myself, as well as replastered the entire downstairs, installed all new woodwork (white oak, sweet.), put in a new kitchen, and have generally totally remodelled the entire house with the exception of the electrical, mostly because I know the least about it.
I’ve got a 60 amp service, running to a fuse box (yes, I said fuses and 60 amps), and I’d like to upgrade my service to a 100 amp box with breakers. I’ve installed GFCI outlets in my bathroom and kitchen already, and most of the wiring was upgraded in the 90’s when my wife bought the house, so it at least has Romex (or some variant) everywhere. When I re-plastered the downstairs, I replaced all the switches and outlets with new ones, so I know they’re all good as well. I’ve also replaced the two built-in light fixtures downstairs, so I know they’re good too. Upstairs, they’re two original (?) (non-grounded, at least) outlets, and one two button switch (remember these?). All the wire and insulation looked perfect to my untrained eye, but there were no hot wires, no scorched insulation, no worn insulation, or anything like that. Everything else was upgraded before my wife moved in, so I really don’t know if it’s ok, but we haven’t burned the house down yet.
For the two non-grounded outlets and switch, they’re running what looks to me to be 60’s era wire. It’s plastic jacketed, and in good condition where I can see it. The outlets are only used for lights, so I haven’t gotten around to replacing them yet.
Here’s my question. Since the house is up to code (passed by an inspector when my wife bought it), I assume I can leave the wiring alone. What I’d like to do though, is replace the panel and outside service line. I’ve heard from friends that I should leave the outside service alone, since I would have to have a licensed electrician (and a permit) to replace it. I’ve heard I can just hire an electrician to replace my panel. Before I call or talk to someone, I wanted to get some advice from you all, so I’m not going in blind, and can at least talk like I know a little, and hopefully avoid getting ripped off.
Also, I’m kind of wondering what all this should cost me. I’ve priced out a Square-D panel, and breakers (100 amp), and assuming 3 hours to replace the panel at $60 an hour (too high? too low?) this right around $300. Am I missing something? I’ve got a few books on electrical wiring, but they deal strictly with new construction, and this is a more specialized case.
All help appreciated, and I sure thank you in advance for the advice. Keep in mind I’ll be hiring someone to do the work, rather than risk killing myself (always a sound choice).
Thanks,
Joe
Replies
In SE Michigan I had my old 100A panel replaced with a 200A by an electrician. Including the new 'drop' (the wire that runs down the outside of the house to the meter) and a new meter (supplied by the electric company for upgraded service) it cost $1000.
My electrician removed all the wires from the old panel and hooked them all to the new panel, but did not replace any of them, for this price.
Many people recommend that if you are upgrading service to use a 200A box because:
- modern living uses many high current devices (AC, hot tub, or whatever)
- the price up is usually not that much and you get a much bigger box to work in
- if you were ever gonna add on to the house you'd be all set for almost anything with a 200A box.
Hope this helps.
Ok, maybe I need to be more specific.
My house is 1300 square feet. 200 amps is simply... ridiculous. I run everything now on 60 for heaven's sake. Also, my local codes say that going over 150 amps requires a complete reinspect, permit, etc... We're into a whole other realm of cash and time here.
Now, as to three hours to replace a box, I've got 6 lines going into it. That's it. Like I say, this is an old house. I can't possibly imagine that wiring up a new box could take a full day, but of course, that's why I'm asking. I had simply anticipated him replacing the box and hooking the old wires into new breakers. Apparently there's a lot more to it.
I've also learned upgrading beyond 100 amps requires a new drop and permit, which tacks another $600 to my initial estimate of $300, plus the fact that the power company has to do it, which puts me at their scheduling whim, which I don't like.
$1000 is out of my budget right now. Oh well, maybe I'll stick with fuses.
Joe
I just finished one on a large house that cost $1400 and have done upgrades for as little as $800. The power company here now charges $200 for disconnect/reconnect and that is billed to the homeowner. As was mentioned above it is a good time to split some circuits, even if only the easy to get to like the washer, maybe a kitchens cirduit or two. Don't forget some day you may wish for central air or a hot tub. Then the 150 or 200 amp will seem like a good idea. Just because you need an inspection doesn't mean a total upgrade. Talk to someone reputable. DanT
Get a 150 or 200 amp pannel.
Then put in a 100 amp main breaker. That gives you easy expansion in the future and will only cost an extra 25-50 or so.
If you are going to 100 amps though you might need to upgrade the meter and base to 100 amp. Check and see if it is still a 60 amp unit. That will require the power company.
This gives you space to upgrade the kitchen circuits, add a dryer, etc, etc. WHEN you need to. You don't have to change anything else at this time.
Seems like you're thinking that all the electrician has to do is unhook the old wires and hook up the new ones. But there's more to it than that. The conduit coming in from the meter might not fit. And the old wires might be too short. And he may have to sink some new anchors into the basement wall to hang the thing with. God knows what might break on a service that old - It may not come apart easily.
So I think you're underestimating the time quite a bit.
Redneck Extraordinaire
Joe - there are a lot of variables, but most of us are aware of the load requirements of A/C, electric ovens (can be 50A) and other typical applicances. When was the last service installed? Add that many years to todays' date and think in those terms, unless you plan to sell in the near future.
I did say "unless your home is quite small and you have no other plans."T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
JRoeZilla, I have a 950 sf house with 60 amp and about 6 lines feeding the whole house, excpt for the fact that it's a rental and I'm now moving, the first thing I would do is upgrade to at least 150amps. At least put in a bigger panel and split some of the house lines up, even if you keep the 60 amp service.
I HATE the fact the lights dim when the hairdryer or micro come on, even the washing machine dims the kitchen light!!
THAT'S the reason your upgrading, not the service amps themselves but spreading the load demands over more branch cicuits will reduce the chance of an overload. Not to sound too worrisome but your life could be at stake (or your family's!!). The number of house fires caused by electrical overloads is pretty high.
Geoff
Joe - Unless your house is incredibly small and you have absolutely zero plans for anything else, I'd seriously consider 200 amp service. The incremental cost isn't that high and it will give you more flexibility for the future. Your hourly rate for electrician time seems about right, but 3 hours to replace a panel? I don't know anyone that fast! Plus, you will have the advantage of more circuits, and you may want the time with the electrician to decide on splitting up some existing circuits to other breakers. For instance, under today's codes, laundry, microwave, GFCI, etc. all need to have dedicated circuits/breakers - it may not be this way with an old house system that has 'grown.'
They will have to pull new wire for the non-grounded outlets. At the same time, plan out any switching changes, like fixing those instances where you cannot 3-way switch a ceiling light or half-switched receptacle under your present service.
Keep in mind that your meter pan / box will grow significantly with the new service - you cannot move it much but you may want to get an idea how big it will be and see if you can reposition it slightly. Is it time for underground service, if available?
And, BTW, remember not to get too much in the way!
T. Jeffery Clarke
Joe,
Good advice so far. Quadruple your budget and double your amperage.
Best,
Seth
replace fuse box with 200 amp panel, new feed line, new meter box, new ground rods, new ground connection to water line, 2 new single plug ckts, 2 electricians, 7 hours, $1500, outside Boston
bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
Edited 4/30/2002 9:08:28 AM ET by bobl
bobl, thanks for the cheat sheet, I need it!!!
JRoeZilla, ditto bobl's #'s, and that includes the breakers too!(and it'll be Al service entrance cable.
Geoff
Why not install a new 200 amp panel and subfeed the existing panel. I believe that you could do that without immediately upgrading the outlet wiring and the eletricians time should be less just installing the panel, meter and feed to the old panel.
Straight 100 amp replacement of a 60 amp fuse box in Louisville Ky 7 years ago was $300, material and labor. Figure $450 to $500 at todays rates and prices. That is what I paid to have my parents house done. The service drop was already rated for a 100 amp service so nothing change outside the house. Four hours total time uncluding the wait for the inspector and utility resetting the meter that they had pulled. All work done by a master electrician.
All of the above advice is on target, and is well to consider, but i hope this is what you are looking for. My parents home is similar in size to yours and built in the early fifties. We have done circuite upgrades as funds have become available over the last seven years.
Dave
hey joe- I had an old 60amp fuse box replaced with a 100amp circuit box and had old lines from meter to breaker panel replaced with new. There is a point where the DIYer should look for professional services. The electrician replaced the lines hot, meaning no shut off at the pole and lines were live when removed from the meter. The whole episode didn't take very long. From a practical viewpoint 100amps will take care of your old house unless your going to wall to wall heavy duty electrical appliances. Square D will work ok but go a step up and away from that Square D Home line the big box sells. IMHO as a non-professional who values his dollars since they don't always come easy, you don't have to get carried away with extras on your service. If you want to spend your cash you can do yourself one favor and pay the pro that puts in your box to take a total look at all your electrical so then you'll know and it shouldn't cost you an arm and leg since he's already there.
Just had my panel upgraded in Michigan last month. Went for a 150 amp . Total cost was $825 which included a Sqaure D CO panel (homeowner panel was $125 cheaper by this electrician). Total time was 3 hours and that included installing a feeder to a subpanel.
The time and hourly rate seem right, but the cost of the panel through the electrician will be at least double what you can purchase it for on your own. Also the incremental differences are about 3-4 times the actual cost when purchased through an electrician. (They've got to make their profit somewhere, and this seems to be one of their favorite places to do it)
By the way, another electrician quoted me $1570 for the same job, so get at least three estimates.
Approx 1100 here in Athens, GA. Dont put 100 amps in the house. THAT doesnt make sense. If for no other reason...resale. Someone looks at the house and says.... "Geez only 100 amps, we gotta replace that...knock off 1500 and we will take the house." Now how much money did you save?
I look down my nose at people who dare to look down their nose at people.
Gotta agree with the other comments made. 3 hours is too low. If everything goes absolutely wonderfully, 3 hours might be right. But what job ever goes like that?
There's a lot of nitty-gritty stuff that eats up time. As one of the the other posters alluded to... wires don't stretch. So, the electrician may need to add some extra JBs to in order to get your old wiring connected to the new breakers. There's ground rods that need to be pounded in, grounding conductors that need to be tied to those rods, connected to the plumbing (typically), and brought into the box. There's mounting the new meter box, which might mean drilling and anchoring (if you have brick/stone exterior).
Then other stuff depends upon the installation methods chosen. Is the drop to/from the meter box in conduit, or just SEC cable? If conduit, it needs to be cut and bent, the wire pulled through the conduit... the conduit, or SEC needs to be affixed to the wall (again, drilling and anchoring needed??) The list can go on, depending upon how the installation is done. If you're lucky enough to pound a ground rod into stoney soil, you'll spend plenty of time just trying to get around this portion of the job. Moral: Each portion of the job may go "quickly", but add them up, I think you're still over 3 hours...
FWIW, doing a typical service isn't usually all that difficult. However, that's if you have an understanding of the NEC, and have an understanding of what the inspector and local utility expect from the installation.
JRZ,
I didn't notice in any of the advice you've gotton so far if any one asked "why?" So, I'll ask. If you are having no trouble and don't need more juice for a specific reason, why open the can of worms?
I was in a similar situation (old house, old service) and upgraded from a 60A pushmatic to a 40 space Square D, 200A, but only because I was constantly tripping breakers and was about to add AC.
In that case, with an overhead drop, the utility reconnected for free.
Best advice is: "don't fix it if it ain't broke" or
do it right, once and for all i.e. 200A new service and panel. BTW Square-D makes 2 products for residential use, the Homeline series (poor quality garbage) and QO series (much better).
I'll agree with the majority above, your figure is a bit on the low side. Although my personal experience went contrary to the above, thankfully.
Two years ago, we bought the house with some electrical problems. First thing to do was new panel. We upsized from 100A/12? circuit panel to a 100A(150A?)/24? circuit panel. Just a rowhome in Philly, I asked about 200A and was told it was overkill for the house. So, my electrician quoted me $500-700 for the swap, no change to service entrance, and correcting any major system flaws at the same time (such as invalid double tapped breakers, bad grounding "bridge" at water meter, etc.)
Got the deal of the year. New Siemens panel installed, new ground wire run to street side of meter (not nearest connection & a bridge), for a freebie he converted an old 240V window AC plug to 120 duplex (central air, not needed any more). He spent the time to go through and label each breaker with it's application, which I NEVER see done properly. All told, he was done in 3 maybe 3.5 hours, and billed just $300. If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
Don't use Siemans panels. They are defective by nature. They use the old fashioned, obsolete straight slotted screws to hold on the front cover. Also they are too short.
If they can't get a simple thing like this right, how can you trust them to get anything else right?
-Peter
I like Siemens panels. What do you use?
I look down my nose at people who dare to look down their nose at people.
What, aside from the "old fashioned, obsolete straight slotted screws to hold on the front cover" is inherently defective with Siemens' panels? Seemed to be similar to any other decent panel I've seen, but then I'm untrained. Enlighten me.
BTW, the cover screws on my panel are slotted with a Robertson recess, IIRC. I see a lot more and more Robertson stuff, so I'd have to say I wouldn't consider it obsolete.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
Mr. Pain In The,
There was a radio commercial in which this female woman said she was going to buy this particular brand of car because the door handles were designed in such a way that she would not break her fingernails when opening it. This is a small detail on maybe a $20,000 car but considering that females make the purchasing decisions on half the cars sold, this can be a very important point.
Actually, the Siemans panels are probably good but if given the choice between their panel and an equivalent panel which uses Phillips head screws - or Robertson [I got bits in my pocket for those] - I would patronize the brand which pays attention to ease of installation. That is, has some concern with us guys in the field.
The manager at iemans wrote me that they did research in 1990 which showed that almost all electricians have a straight slotted screwdriver [aka doorstop, tentpeg, paintcan opener, electrician's chisel, prybar, etc.]. Nowadays, most well-equiped electricians use screwguns and Phillips bits. Slotted bits are dangerous since it is so easy for the driver to slip out. The problem is trying to hold up thirty pounds of sheet metal with one hand, fitting in the [slotted] screw with the second hand ["] and and twisting the screwdriver with your third hand - if you have one. With Phillips or Robertson you can stick the screw on the bit of your screwgun and do the operation with just two hands and much faster.
-Peter
I'd take QO from Square D over other makes mainly because their large market share means that replacement breakers are probably going to be easier to find years from now.
-- J.S.
also remember that unless the electrician has a box and breakers kicking around he/she needs to buy some, could take 1 - 1.5hr to drive order, load and get home or on site, someone is paying for that. maybe that is why the box and breakers cost more when sparky gets them....
JRoeZilla,
Aren't we just an opionated bunch? I did mine last year ,150 amp, and had about $225 in material in it from the big box ,that's with copper conductors in metal conduit.It took me about 5 hours.I don't truthfully know how much my employer charges.Sometimes they turn into a bitch and can go 8+ hours.I plan on selling so didn' t go the 200 amp route,but with splitting up the kitchen appliances,central air, and electric range and dryer I'm maxed out at 24 circuits.
Around here you have to get an inspection,permit, anyway but unless you have the old 3 single conductor drop I doubt you'd have to have a new utilty drop from the street, just new entrance conductors from the point of attachment down,including new meter.As to what the utility company puts on free air conductors , from 60 to 150 isn't much.
Just like any other topic here at FHB it's up to the reader to separate the wheat from the chaff.Some of the previous posts on this thread offer excellent advice ,a few, ridiculous BS.
I replaced mine here in Arizona about three years ago, maybe longer. I'm not an electrician, but in fact a welder for a natural gas company. Besides upgrading my panel to install a welder, I went to an underground service drop. I contacted the electric company after obtaining my permit. When it came time to do the work, they killed the power feed, I installed the new 200 amp box, which by the way could not be located in the same place. I also had to install a junction box, or all the wires would be too short. After I wired everything up, I let the inspector know. He corrected me on one item, a jumper from the j-box to the meter panel / breaker box- which I corrected in his presence. After the inspection, the power co. came back out, verified the inspection, and restored power. Total time, 8-9 hours, better yet, total cost......Permit $25.00, Power company fee for underground conduit, $85.00, new 200 amp breaker/meter box $100.00. Total cost was $210! The work wasn't hard, it was done safely with the power off, I had the pride of doing it myself, and now the meter really spins with my power tools on! The inspector even commented on how neat my work was done, used to the locals cramming the wires into the box as fast as they can so they can move on to the next job. Unless you absolutely are fearful of tackling the job yourself, consider it, perhaps with the help of a more experienced friend. Good Luck!