I recently stripped off some existing vinyl peel and press tile that was in the bathroom of my condo and replaced it with some very nice italian porcelin. the existing plywood subfloor was in good shape. the actual floor structure of the bathroom is elevated about 12″ inches from the rest of the floors for some reason (I suspect due to some plumbing upgrades in the floor done many years ago as the bldg. is VERY old). Anyway, the plywood was layered on top of other subfloors which were partially rotted as well as some old ceramic tiles and wire lath and probably a mud job etc. I made a judjement call not to strip it all out for many reasons (toilet flange height issues, carrying 30 bags of debris down 4 flights of stairs etc. etc.) Besides, I way 220 and there was minimal deflection in the existing floor the way it was. There was some deflection however. So I went with the strongest material ; porcelin. And I spend a forture on expensive mortar called “superflex” by TEC.
My issue is this, a couple of tiles have come loose a little where you stand most often in front of the sink. They are not really wobbeling around but there is a distinct click when you step on them. I think part of what may have happened was thet there may be a small void with no mortar and I think deflection worked them loose.
What is the best solution for fixing my problem. I would like to avoid pulling up tiles if possible as they are partially under the base of my pedestal which may cause me more grief.
I have heard of using epoxy. Is this a legitemate solution?
The tile job looks fantastic. No lippage, nice evenly spaced 1/16″ joints an all. help me please because the clicking noise is bringing tears to my eyes. I know this because I’m looking in the mirror as I hear it.
Thanks,
Andrew
Edited 11/23/2005 12:21 pm ET by xosder11
Replies
did you install a tile underlayment like cement backer board ?
your solution to the problem involves 30 bags of debris + the new porcelain tile debris and 4 flights of stairs.
you know you did this one wrong and an expensive mortar isn't going to solve the problem.
and neither will an epoxy grout
carpenter in transition
Well tim I think your missing the point here. The floor is actually in really good shape. As I said the result was more or less satisfactory. There are some clicks but other than that I am very happy with the way it turned out. With limited time and limited budjet, as a DIY project I had to pick and choose my battles. taking out the old floor was not feasable, and that's that. I know your reply does not help me whatsoever. Do me a favor and don't waste your time patronizing me. I was trying to get a rise out of people when I said I was crying over it. Obviously, you and I both know the porcelin won't be coming out. Thanks for trying to rub salt in my wounds, but I was hoping to hear from someone who could provide a more helpfull answer.
Tim wasn't trying to rub salt in your wounds, at least not how I read it, the sad fact of life is you installed the tile to an un-suitable substrate. The fact you can feel a deflection when you walked on it means it was not solid enough to begin with.
I can accept that tim was trying to be bluntly honest. I am not quite ready to accept that the tiles are loose because of deflection. I think that the substrate was suitable enough. By deflection I mean when I jumped. And as I said I weigh 220. Everything deflects a little. Can't we at least first consider that I just diddn't set a couple tiles well enough. As I may have said this is the first time I have done this. Lets just consider trying a few things before I tear up my floor and start over. The tiles are solid everywhere else.
Pedestal sink?
Two supply lines, a trap slip nut and a couple of bolts to take loose. Remove the sink and then remove the tile. If you are correct about the void under the tile it is then fixable with a little scaping, cleaning and resetting. Otherwise do as tim and CAGIV suggested.
Not being a smart azz, but after 32 years, I've found that short cuts either on installation or repairs co$t more in the long run. That clicking, expensive tile is gonna break, if you don't fix it right.
Dave
You're going to need to remove the two tiles from the floor if you are going to attempt to repair the problem. It could be you simply did not obtain enough coverage with your thinset, you will be able to tell when you lift them.
After you remove them and clean the grout from the adjoining tiles, and thourougly remove all the thinset from the substrate you can try to thinset them back down and re-grout, however the deflection in the floor will probably cause them to "pop" again over time given they are in such a high traffic area.
What thinset did you use? I have to agree with the majority and say you should have ripped out all the existing underlayments and started from scratch. Porcelain is one of the most difficult tiles to bond. Being in the tile biz for 20 years I have to say that direct bonding tile or stone directly to plywood is a no-no. Tile usually comes loose from deflection of the floor. You may have multiple layers there, but they may not be structural.
if you want more options ...
shoot your dog first.
then ... tear out the crappy install.
or ... just tear out the crappy install.
feel better? U now have two options ...
jumping up and down on your tip toes doesn't make you a tile expert. Your floor is telling U the deflection is too much ... plus ... U left the rot? Nice ...
Now do your dog a favor and just redo the job the right way, huh?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Ok Jeff,
Your awful response has warranted what I have been trying to avoid bringing into this entire discussion: personal background as it relates to the issue. I do not own the condo in which I live. The building is owned by three members of my family, my father being one of them. The building is well over 100 years old. There are literally 100's of things I could be fixing or upgrading in this place as it has been neglected for some time. I made an arrangement with my father that I could live there at minimal rent as long as I cleaned the place up and spent some money on it to make it "liveable." And maybe in 5 years when I move out my brother will have his chance. The Apartment is basically a complete gutjob. It doesn't even have central heating, it has a heater range. It is pretty much understood that in 10 years from now the building will most likely be sold off and whomever is going to buy it is going to gut the whole thing and then make new condos and sell it off. That is what happens to all of these old buildings.
Other members of my extended family live in the building as well. One of the stipulations that was given to me by my father was that I was to do no structural modifications, minor as replacing a floating floor may be, and that I was to do any work in a way that was not obtrusive to the other tenants. hense not bringing 30 bags of trash down the stairs.
So as I mentioned in previos posts, taking out the old floor was not feasable. None the less, the bathroom was in desperate need of some updating. I could have just used vinyl tiles on the floor but I wanted something better. Plus I wanted to try my hand at laying tile.
I instected the floor. From what I could see the structure underneath was in decent shape. There were numerous layers of underlayments, one of which had about 1 small patch of rot just near teh shower where someone had previously been careless with the curtain. but it had since been fixed and the whole floor had recently been covered with a new 3/4" cdx subfloor.
As I mentioned, I was jumping on the floor (never any mention of tiptoes). And it seemed solid. So I made a judjement call. Knowing it is not the optimal way to go about it I went with porcelin tile and went for broke. I wanted real tile and was willing to do it the wrong way because it was the only way. Otherwise, I had to go with crappy vinyl
The floor came out great, for a first time ever tile job with zero help from anyone except my 80 dollar home chepo special tile saw. Only one small pop has since materialized months later and I think, hope I can get lucky and fix it. If not, we live and learn. I sure would like to hear of some of your beggining triles and tribulations oh knight on his high horse
Which leads me to my question, why do you dismiss the idea that maybe as other people have said I l got a void in the thinset ,or I left it too long. I would call these possible beginner mistakes.
In conclusion, I'll fix the floor or live with the pop, neither of which are of any consequence to you. You take it to heart when someone does not do a repair the correct way because you probably have integrity in your work, and it breaks your heart to see thinks done the wrong way (yeah I said wrong way). But I wish people would stop lecturing. I have commited no crime. I wish to do everything by the book, my hands were tied on this one.
GUILTY!!!
Now go get to resetting those two tile. :o)
and Welcome to Breaktime.
View Image
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
ha ha ha =)
I diddn't know what to expect when I checked this message board today. Thanks for the laugh. I'll let everyone know what the turnout is.Oh one last thing, how long should you typically stay off the newly set tiles? how long before grouting? I know what the bag of thinset says, but I'd like to hear it from a pro
Edited 11/29/2005 9:54 am ET by xosder11
Well, you're going to have to go and ask one then.
Roar!
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Edited 11/29/2005 11:43 am ET by razzman
just wondering how you made out
Haven't got to it yet but I appreciate you asking. Thing is, I'm in the middle of taping and sanding new 3/8" blueboard that I just hung over the existing plaster in a couple rooms. That's coming along really well. The old plaster walls were starting to pull loose so I went over everything with 3/8 and hope that does the trick. I also hung a crown molding in one room and that came out great too. The existing walls and ceiling were really curved so I ended up going with trim screws to pull the crown up nice and tight. I coped the corners and although they are not pefect, they are pretty decent. Caulk and paint was my savior ;)
Looking back at this thread, I realize I was getting pretty down with some peoples responces. Truth is, contrary to what I may have said I was sore because people were being honest with me.
I have been doing a lot of work to this little 500 s.f. apartment while living in it with my girlfriend. Every free minute, nights and weekends. Blueboard, tile, painting, dust misery and so on and so forth. My friends are rideculing me cause they never see me anymore and my nerves are frayed. Truth be told, this message board has saved me more than once. You guys have really been helpful and I can't believe how much I have learned from here. I was trained in architecture so I feel like I know alot about this kind of stuff, but there are things I'm doing for the first time, like basically everything, hanging doors, taping drywall seams, wiring ceiling fans and dimmer switches. I reailize that nothing has beat the lifetime experience that people who do this stuff all the time have to offer for insight. It has helped me understand my craft better and relate with subs better. It's been a journey
To make it worse, it's a sagging old building were everything is either broken, missing, not up to snuff, or in a sad state of disrepair. I try to do as much as I can on a minimal budjet and beginner level skills
I am trying to get through it while maintianing my relationship with the one I love ya know?
Im sure alot of people may understand what I am going through.
Aside from the clicking tiles and a few minor setbacks everything is coming great.
As far as the tiles go, I noticed after I turned the heat on the clicking diminished, and at some points went away completely. My amature theory: the cold caused the plywood substrate to shrink, thus pushing the tiles against one another and causing the click when they moved against each other. When the floor is not as cold to the touch it doesn't click as much. I don't believe the bond on the porcelin is completely gone although on the one thats clicking I can push one corner down about 1/16". I think I have a hollow spot. The floor does deflect a little but The superflex mortar is holding ok...for now. So in closing, I'll get back to that after I clean up the drywall dust and painting supplies. I need to take a couple steps forward before I take a step back. Does that make sense?
I guess I'm just carrying on now but I found it really nice you cared enough to ask :) Not to sound like a sap, but its nice to feel like people are on your side trying to lend their advice when at times I feel like this apartment is my worst enemy and I have somehow unleashed it's fury in full force.
I realize I should post some pics of the work I've done so far so you guys can take a look and see what I'm up to. As I said, I am very proud of the tile job despite the clicks. Pics will be on the way.
I dream of the day I build that first new house and I can controll my own destiny when it comes to the work that gets done there.
Thanks Everyone.
Andrew (the weary amature)
You tried to cheat the tile gods and got caught.
I imagine a new floor will cost more than what it would have cost to hire 2 laborers to do the demo.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Honestly. Obviously I won't be replacing the floor. I'll live with the clicking noise. Try to be realistic. If I really thought the floor was that bad off I would have done the demo...myself
I understand where everyone is coming from. I know enough to know the importance of a good substrate. I made a judgement call. Also...I dropped a 35' tape measure in that general region. Could that have knocked them loose?I don't wan't to appear sore because I'm not getting the answers I wan't. But it is what it is and at this point I was looking for any feasable anwers.
Edited 11/23/2005 4:29 pm ET by xosder11
sorry about the attitude. you caught me on a day when i was a little jazzed over a customer wanting museum quality for k-mart prices.
the recs you got are right on. pulling a couple of tiles may solve the problem, but it may not. if more than a few tiles are loose and you try to rip up just two, you could end up with the whole floor coming up. this is the only way to fix it. movement in the tiles (clicking) will lead to grout cracks and popping grout.
sorry about that.
Happy Thanksgiving.
carpenter in transition
Hey not a problem at all. I appreciate the fact that people around here will give you a straight answer, even if it's not always the one you want to hear. Ill probrably run into you again sometime as I find myself on this forum more and more lately. thanks again.
The easiest fix, given the parameters you noted, is to remove the sink and remove the loose tiles. Clean the back of the tiles and the floor, apply new thinset, and re-grout.
I can think of three reasaons you might have loose tiles: You might have let the batch of thinset get too old before setting those tiles, and it did not bond well; the floor deflected; you walked on those tiles too soon and broke the bond.
Go ahead and try just replacing those two tiles. If you hear the clicking again in a couple of weeks, then you either have to live with it, or do a completer tear out.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I suggest that what you have described as subfloors are, in reality, a series of underlayments with overlying finishes.
Subfloors are secondary structural components designed to carry loads between primary members, such as joists, and in residential construction are usually not of less than 5/8" plywood or OSB, or 3/4" dressed lumber. Underlayments have virtually no structural value and serve only to provide a plane surface upon which to found a (thin) floor finish such as tile, veneer, or carpeting
As already mentioned by others, the clicking sound is indicative of deflection of the floor structure, and everything above it, for such reasons as: inadequate edge support for plain edged plywood subfloor; surface grain of plywood panels not placed at right angles to joists; not staggering end joints of adjacent plywood panels; inadequate thickness of subfloor for the given spacing of joists; excessive joist spacing; or loss of subfloor physical properties/section resulting from its wetting/rotting (as you have reported). Although not a problem with the previous resilient flooring, this deflection is excessive for, and will continue to be a problem with, the newly installed porcelain material.
I suggest that you have two options to salvage your existing situation, specifically: install additional joists between those existing, at least in the floor area within which deflection is a problem, (probably not a readily available course for action); and, perhaps the most viable, easiest, and course of last resort, is to widen only the "clicking" joints [by sawing say 1/8' of material from the tile edge, (using a minigrinder with a diamond blade)] and grouting the joint with a flexible medium such as silicone caulk.
The latter approach will eliminate contact between tiles (and attendant "clicking"), accommodate deflection of the floor assembly, and keep the moving joints filled albeit with caulk. In this way, you might also escape "popping" of tiles from the substrate. Good luck!