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Does anyone have any experience with magnetic water conditioners?
(For example, see http://www.ktc.net/gmx/).
How well do they work? I am interested in installing one in my home.
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Discussed here before (archives).
Please someone tell me this is a hoax? It just sounds so much like one....
*There's one born every minute. I'm sure a lot of people will believe that crap and spend 700 bucks for nothing.I'm surprised they aren't touting it as a cure for cancer. I'll bet it even replaces material lost from your roofing tiles and makes your kids behave better too...
*Yes, they're bogus. One of my favorites had a wire that come of out the module and wrapped around your incoming water pipe. That and a long list of pesticides, metals, salts, etc that it removed. One of the most useful (and obvious) concepts in chemical engineering is that in-out=accumulation (which equals zero for steady state). So either in=out for this device (which of course it does) or you will quickly plug up the pipe with precipitant. I looked at that website. This wonder product:"uses no electricity uses no chemicals needs no maintenance" So how does it work? With a hand crank?-David
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Thanks for your replies. So what's a sensible way to go about evaluating and buying a water softener? I don't just want to walk into Home Depot and like a bonehead buy the first one I see. Is anyone aware of buyer's guides or test results available on the Web?
Mark
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Culligan will test your water for free (and then try to sell you something, but take their suggestion on advisment and keep gathering info and prices). Better yet, ask your local water district / health department about typical water chemistry and their recommendation for water softeners, etc. Consumer Reports put out a book on water quality and water treatment a few years ago, they offer informed, unbiased information and list the prices they paid versus the performance they observed.
A few things that come to my mind: check what salt is required (type, pellet size) and THE PRICE. Don't get sucked into someone's cheap unit that requires their own salt cartridge. Examine the unit for ease of refilling, access, ability to fit it and fill it in your utility room. Try to assess if the connections and fill ports are substantial enough to last over the long haul. You could ask professional plumbers about their experiences at http://www.heatinghelp.com/
Good Luck. -David
*First of all be Very Sure you want a conventional water softener. They add a significant amount of sodium to the water, cost a heap to maintain (much more than you "save" on soap) and what is worse, in most cases aren't really needed. One of the fadest ripoffs today is the filter and soften craze. Lots of times the stuff they take care of isn't even in the water.So, you haven't said why you are considering an softener. But, my experience is that if you have a question about your water go ahead and spend the few bucks it costs for a real water test. There are labs all over the continent that will do a real, scientific test that will let you know exactly what is in the water and whether it is hazardous. If it is hazardous then filter or treat. It nothing there then don't. As David says start with your local public health authority. They will be able to give you an insight into your water quality and point you to a qualified lab.Let us know what you decide to do and why.
*this is a hoax. Jeff
*and the magnetic gas mileage thing doesn't work either. Jeff
*Yeah, but I bet those magnetic insoles do wonders for your sore feet! HA!Rich Beckman
*Some magnetic devices have been thought to help remove and avoid scale in water pipes. This isn't the same as softening, as the minerals still remain in the water. Best probable application would be in heating plants, maybe.Water softeners do not introduce "significant" amounts of sodium into the water, though those who must have low sodium diets should consider this aspect. There's also potassium chloride, but it's less effective in ion transfer (if that's the correct term).I probably spend less than fifty dollars a year for softener salt, and I buy the more expensive Morton pellets, as cheaper salt can contain impurities. My softener cost about $600 and should last twenty years, so I wouldn't characterize maintenance as costing a heap.In my area, the water has a hardness index of 15, which makes a softener a good idea. It isn't just making the soap work, which is significant in of itself; it's also avoiding mineral build-up on everything. My kitchen cold water line and the two outside faucets have unsoftened water. The former is because the water tastes better pre-softener, and the latter are just to conserve softener salt.A demand controlled softener is generally considered preferable to one that re-generates on a fixed schedule, as it'll save water and salt. Also, it's a good idea to run an iron remover through the softener system every six months or so if your water contains iron. This will keep the resin beads working more effectively.
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Thanks once again for your very helpful messages. In answer to FredB's question, I want a softener mainly for the nice clean feel of the water when bathing. I don't suspect that the water is unhealthy, so filtration is less of a concern.
We take possession on Aug. 2. I'll get a sample tested once we move in. We are currently living nearby, and the water is quite hard. I found our water district's quality report online at
http://www.alderwoodwater.com/Water_Quality_Report/CCR.htm . I don't see anything alarming, although the chart for lead and copper is missing.
Barry's point about a demand controlled softener is a good one. I didn't know about them.
Will keep you posted.
Mark
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Mark - one more aspect. We have a softner, and have to use softened water in the garden. Consequently we have to use potassium cloride in the softner, rather than sodium cloride, which latter would build up in beds & potted plants until it killed them. Good Luck.
*copper wrist bands work though. Jeff
*Yup, and carrying a quartz crystal in your pocket, close to the other family jewels will make you more 'potent'.: )
*I've always wondered why the government puts flouride in the water, are they really that concerned with my teeth?
*A couple of messages have referred to sodium in softened water.I've been told by people who _seem_ to know what they're talking about that "salt" in softened water is a myth. Their argument is that the salts are used only to recharge/rejuvenate the resins which actually soften the water, water used from the softener doesn't pass through the salt tank.Anyone have any definitive information on this?Bob
*Glad to see this conversation. We live in San Antonio and the water is hard enough that scale builds on the faucets to the point that we have to disassemble the shower head and soak it twice a year to keep the water flowing. Wife complains about spotted windows and hard to clean fixtures, but what do I know about that? David commented that the potassium chloride salts won't harm the plants - is that true? If I install a softener and kill the dear plants, it's all over. What about cooking with the treated water?
*Mark:Using a softener for the "nice clean feel" is probably the best and most sensible reason a person could have. If you want your water to feel a certain way to your skin then it is your house and your money and go for it. My comments were based strictly on the utilitarian aspect of "softened" water.In some areas of the continent the water is REALLY BAD or it is REALLY HARD. In those areas it makes sense to use a softener to remove the baddies. One of my aquaintences has such poor water that he has to clean his filter weekly, back flushing doesn't do the job.But for most of us softeners don't a careful analysis of the actual costs shows that softeners don't pay for themselves and are in fact not needed.
*Some people like the feel of softened water.It bugs me because, when I visit someone's house with softened water, it feels slimey - like the soap will never come off. They say that you "get used to it"About the flouridation of our water: visit a 'developed' country that does not add it to their water and look around at the people's teeth! I never thought of myself as a dental snob, but after seeing what people can consider acceptable in their mouths in places like Japan just freaked me out. The flouride in our water (there's statistics that I remember seeing somewhere about incidence of dental decay and the HUGE improvements that resulted when F was first introduced...) has made all of our smiles so much nicer to be around!
*Maybe fluoride makes a difference but everybody in my area has wells and just as many teeth as our city cousins.
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If it's just for bathing that you want a softener, you might consider one of those softener filters that hangs on the shower head/faucet. I don't have the catalog in front of me, but as I recall they are fairly inexpensive. This would put the softening where you really want it, instead of paying for all the water in the house. Another plus is that guests (like me) who feel slimy after a shower in softened water can opt out by placing it to the side. I wouldn't suggest this, though, if you expect to have a problem with scale build-up.
*This can get into a long and enthusiastic discussion, but just one comment about flouride in our water. No, the government probably isn't that concerned, but the people who peddle the products are. As for the folks in underdeveloped countries, ask them how many tooth brushes they have, how many dentists, and what the quality of their diets are like. All much more telling for teeth than flouride. It is arguable that it does more harm than good. Actually, a lot of that calcium you are trying to remove from your water would probably help build up your teeth!
*I hate to give a chemistry lesson, but that is really the only way to answer that question. Hard water contains such things as calcium carbonate and other materials. THese calcium salts are what precipitate on your pipes. Also, calcium salts make soap solidify.The resin in the softener has sodium ions in it when fresh. As the water flows over it, the calcium ions prefer to stick to the resin, and so kick out the sodium ions. You now have sodium carbonate, which stays in solution. For this reason, the water now has added sodium in it. The harder the water to start, the more sodium it will have after softening.But what then is the purpose of the salt brine? Well, the chemistry of this says that when the sodium is very highly concentrated, it will kick those calcium ions off the resin, from sheer force of numbers. This is regeneration. The brine passes over the resin and goes down the drain. At the end of the cycle, tap water is passed over the resin to wash out the salt water. During this time your regular water bypasses the softener, so if you are bathing at that time you will get a slug of hard water. After the rinsing of the resin, your softener returns control of the system to the softener. I notice on my system that there is still a trace of salt in the water for a little while.
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The calcium in water as CaCO3 is not bioavailable to humans. In the 40's and 50's when I was a kid the local dentist spent 90-95% of his time drilling and filling teeth. Now it's about 5%. That may be due to fluoride in the water and in toothpaste, or to something else. I'd be interested in suggestions as to what that something else is.
My own opinion is that both sides of the F debate are right--putting F in the water was definitely a communist plot, and the reason they put it there was so that when they enslaved us they wouldn't have to spend any money fixing our teeth.
*Rob: A retired Welsh dentist relative observed the same thing in his practice - a huge reduction in cavaties when flouride was introduced. Went from tyically British teeth (dentures by one's twenties) to almost everyone keeping all their teeth. Someone mentioned an area with well sustems where people have good teeth. Some areas have naturally flouridated water - that's how the connection was figured out. Plus there's flouride in most all toothpastes now.There's definitely sodium salt added during water softening, but it doesn't add up to much compared to the typical American diet. Only if someone was on a VERY low sodium diet on doctor's orders (like NO processed food, no celery, etc.) would softened water be sigificant. One handful of Doritos and you've overwhelmed any contribution from the water.
*How much salt is left in softened water is a direct function of its operation and maintenance. Some homeowners set it up so it has hardly any discernable salt, others leave so much I'm thirsty for a week.What it tough about this subject is that practically no one has any real testing done. They accept the softener company claims without much, if any, critical analysis.
*The softener guy I spoke with about a week ago summed it up like this: The amount of sodium added to your water depends on the hardness of yor water. "If your water has 10 grains of hardness it will now have 10 grains of sodium." Sounded logical to me.
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Wanting both a softener and a garden, we put a T in the supply line in front of the softener. We used that to supply three hose bibs and two automatic watering manifolds. Just be sure to make everything anti-siphon. Soft water improves the cooking (especially the coffee!).
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Does anyone have any experience with magnetic water conditioners?
(For example, see http://www.ktc.net/gmx/).
How well do they work? I am interested in installing one in my home.