I have the opportunity to make some double hung windows for a classic Colonial in upstate NY (Columbia County, lots of rain, very cold winters). My question, and Piffin I’d really appreciate your 2 cents, is what wood to use. Since the windows will be painted I’m wondering whether to use cedar or Douglas fir? More than anything else, I’d like someone else’s opinion other than my own.
Thanks in advance for everyone’s input.
Jim
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Replies
What about white oak? It's plentyful in New York and supposed to be pretty hardy...that's what 90 percent of wood shake shingles are made from...right?
IMHO, its hard to beat cedar for weather, but I really never cared for cedar that much...it always seemed too light and fragile for my taste. I personally have used mahogany in outdoor situations and have always had good results. Last time I used doug fir was for building a set of exterior porch steps, and so far ( 3 years later) it has held up extremely well.
Many of the old ( 40 -60 years) double hung windows I have replaced ( with vinyl replacements) were originally made from yellow southern pine. I personally feel that this wood is still very hardy and capable for your intended job. But nomatter what species, if the windows aren't primed and painted well, weather will still do its lil number on them. It's 10% wood species and about 90% prep that counts.
Just my 2 cents.
Lots of luck on your project.
>> ... that's what 90 percent of wood shake shingles are made from ... right?
I don't think so. Most wood shakes and shingles are cedar of one flavor or another.
Black locust is a possibility if rot resistance is an important factor. It's supposed to be good for 30 years in ground contacte, so it should be dang near permanent where it can dry off. It's not widely available, though, and it's hard enough to strike sparks off your saw.
I'm restoring my double hungs. My house is a youngster (built 1931) and I do not need to replace any of the wood, but I am impressed with the old growth Fir used to make the sashes and windows.
Cedar is too soft for any kind of long term reliability.
You might try Mahogany.
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
I'd go with vertical grain fir... mortise and tenon joints, and prime before glazing.
Jim,
Spanish cedar or OG cypress would be my choices. Both mill well but the spanish cedar sure does taste bad. I hate milling fir.
KK
Clear Vert. fir...is the best
Longleaf heart pine a close second.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
My pal makes replacement double hungs out of Cypress. Great wood for weather.
Mahogany, at least the reaL stuff, is getting hard to get and expensive.
I've started using Spanish cedar for any exterior trim I need to mill. Its readily available in 8/4 so you won't need to laminate anything for the sashes.
huh? Mahagony is ALL over the place, and moderate for what it is...I can get 20/4 yes, that's 5" thick, by 30'' wide...for 5 bucks and change a BF..Genuine swieteinia (sp?) macrophylla..or sumptin like that...real red, real heavy, and no knots.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I dunno.
My regular supplier said he's having problems getting it- something about some kind of import restrictions.
Or maybe he just wants to sell more Spanish cedar?
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. Budget is having me lean toward the DF.
Jim"I want a good clean fight. No head butts, no rabbit punches, and no hitting below the belt. Break when I say break, and protect yourself at all times."
I'm interested about your experience in painting spanish cedar. We've used it in exterior situations (oil primer, 2 coats latex paint) and found the finish crazing, peeling and in some instances bubbling.
Pleas help!
John Bay
Made some basement hopper window jambs out of Spanish cedar some years back.....don't know how the paint held up, 'cause we sold the house not too long after...
Spanish cedar is pretty different from American cedar, for those posters who don't know that.
I don't paint, so I can't help you with that.
But I haven't heard anything from the jobs I've done with the Spanish cedar about the paint failing, either.
Pattern grade mahogany, if the budget can stand it. VG doug fir if it can't.
If you are going to work with fir, get one of those little super sharp tweezers that has a magnifying glass mounted on board. Perfect for pulling those pesky fir splinters, evenings before dinner. They are very small, and annoying.
I'm no pro but for what its worh, I have heard either mahogany or old growth doug fir.
I am going to be starting on some double hungs of my own this fall. Given that I am just a homeowner/renovator, I did plenty of home work on this subject,including making a visit to two custom window shops.
Both places and numerous other sources recommend the mahogany. Doug fir was also high on the list for authentic reproduction, in my case to match the existing doug fir windows I have. I was told that reclaimed doug fir is available and worth the hefty price.
Here are a few resources that were provided to me:
http://www.pioneermillworks.com
http://www.terramai.com
http://www.crossroadslumber.com/
http://www.duluthtimber.com/
I can't personally vouch for them as I just received this info days ago. Like I said I'm no pro, just an deranged home renovator. But this info comes to me from solid sources.
Good luck and share some pics along the way.
Hey , Pino .
You got those blocks done yet?
You know, that's a good point. And I don't recall seeing any pics of the block-making machine either - something that after his post I went around the internet trying to find pics of....
Completely done - no. 150 down, Need about 200 more. I'll try to get some pics of the blocks and the machine this weekend.
Nice to spot another one in here. Deranged home renovator I mean.
I live in the Catskills region, and all the old sashes I have ever
had the pleasure to work on were Sugar Pine. Keep them finished well and they will last for over a hundred years.
I'm sure that you could do just as well with some nice clear White Pine, it's readily available here, relatively cheap.
I use it for sashes and haven/t had a call back yet, but it's only been 10 years or less. It was State approved(!) a few years back when I built reproduction replacement sashes for 3 of the fire towers in the region. They(towers) have been restored and are now a tourist 'destination' along the trails.
I used Brown ash for thes muntins/mullions...it work well, and is relatively decay resistant, I primed w/ kilz OB, cuz these are gettin paint..FWIW
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
hey, nice place to stash yer lumber there.
Easily accessible.
be cabined
Edited 11/21/2006 12:13 pm ET by rez
LOL. Thats whatthey backed the cement coat with, lots and lots of PT cut offs...
I replaced it all with 2+ inches of foam and sqirt foam around the edges. Then expanded lath and structo-lite inside. Still thinkin about the outside mix.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Went roaming out around out back the other day and decided to clean up a bit. Found 10 boards I'd bought somewhere who knows when and had laid them on top of a stack of bricks and just plain half forgot and neglected them.
Had some white paint on them. 4 ft long, 1/2" thick and anywhere and 12" to 15"s wide. Exposed and of course some repeatedly wet over the years.
Had the planer out and running so thought I'd slide a few thru to see what I could see.
Friggin' mahogany. Some areas of the boards had started to rot so I EZied the sides and planed. Was able to salvage some.
be hating when that happens
A loss to the Cowboys is like a pimple on your butt. Sure its annoying but it does'nt matter in the bigger scheme of things. -maverick
I know the feeling all too well. I removed the fireplace surrond/mantle and all its painted ugly. Toted it out back and leaned up against the shed...forgot to put it IN the shed for quite some time.
Farting around a year later ( I don't use that shed much..LOL) and the paint is all coming off in huge sheets...
All SOLID walnut, and actually looking OK...but still...arrrrggghh.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Many years back I was at an absolute farm auction and at the end they walked out back to a shed with a bunch of whitewood roughcut lumber in it. Just myself and one other and we bid against each other and I got it.
I laid it on top of my brick stacks and covered it with some tin. Knew it was there but always something else more important to deal with than bother to play around with it.
So the same other day I decided to clear that mess up too and dragged the lumber out. The bores had got most of it but there was only less than half of it whitewood, the rest was red and white oak.
Salvaged a few but now I got more firewood. Won't happen again.
be famous last words
A loss to the Cowboys is like a pimple on your butt. Sure its annoying but it does'nt matter in the bigger scheme of things. -maverick
I know of some people who use that method INTENTIONALLY for paint stripping.But you need to check on it every couple of weeks, just to make sure it isn't rotting or something.
"clear White Pine, it's readily available here, relatively cheap."Huh?! Select eastern white....cheap? man not in this neck of the woods , and I'm only 4 hours south of you. Maybe it's local cut stuff?
Yes, the local cut White Pine is the prevalant softwood, along with Hemlock. I'm located in the Catskills, so there's a fair supply trees.
Love the Catskills. My sister lives just on the edge of the Park uo in Delhi. My ancestory is from that region and I'm related to about a third of the natives there.
I'm about dead center, In Shandaken. Great place, great people.The gene pool does get a little shallow back in the hollows,though. ;^}
"The gene pool does get a little shallow back in the hollows,though. "Boy o boy does it ever. Had a few close calls with some of the mountain people, but all I did was start shuffling and talking like they do and it was ok. My own Grandfather, born in 1890, was an Apalachian hillybilly from the backwoods of Trout Creek. I had never gone there to see where he came from until last year, and it's a pretty spooky place, right out of the film Deliverence. For the most part though, those folk are the absolute salt of the earth.
Traditionaly sashes were made of DF or Pine preferably heartwood. Each region of the country used different woods or variations.
If it's going to be painted I would use a good mahogany, or if you can get it, a very straight grained heart DF. I hadn't thought of Spanish cedar, but I don't see why that wouldn't make a terrific window sash. It's a great wood to work with.
Black locust doesn't rot, but is mighty wiley in my experience. White oak would be good.