How does one gain the title “Master Carpenter”.Is it self proclaimed ,or what.
Edited 10/12/2002 6:37:34 PM ET by bossman
How does one gain the title “Master Carpenter”.Is it self proclaimed ,or what.
The FHB Podcast crew discusses potential causes and solutions for peeling plaster near a chimney.
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Replies
I seem to remember talking this one over not long ago. A search for the term might review it for you if you go back a year on the settings.
Excellence is its own reward!
you got to have your own television show
B'man, once upon a time... it was admission to the Guild. Over time, the term has become corrupted. Not as badly here in the woodbutcher trade, as say... in fishing. Where the person most proficient in preparing lines for use became known as the... (drumroll please)
Master-Baiter. Things got so bad that they've become known as the "Head Mate" instead. Of course, that ignores the nautical phrase "head", as in WC/toilet/privy... but that's another story.
-GWC
I think George (Master)Carpenter, is closest to the mark…anybody nowadays calling themselves a Master Carpenter is on some kind of teevee induced auto-erotic trip. I’ve been in and out of wacking wood (construction, George, in construction!) for almost 40 years, and have yet to meet a real master carp.
I’ve built one house totally by myself, framed and trimmed 100’s of others, used my crew and myself for all the woody workings of our present house, and work every day on a trim crew for a corporation recognized by our fine state and the IRS, and whose secretary/treasurer I get to snuggle with every night.
I have to take other folks ideas and needs and wants and turn them into wood, the way they envision it… I’ve thought of myself, and have been mostly happy to be a carpenter…
But last weekend, I went king fishing with a guy I consider a Master Fisherman…I’d been snarling up his lines for years, but this time, after we almost caught our limit, he told me I could rig for him anytime, finally (I think he was very relieved after all the training he had put out, and I had to learned to buy the beer he likes). So George, thanks for the title, I think I’ve made it , at least, to Master Baiter )…
It's okay, I can fix it!
Could you clarify for me, a poor nimwit, whether you just said in public, that you are not only a master baiter, but that you are in bed with the IRS? No wonder you have to, well, you know...
;-).
Excellence is its own reward!
Like Randy Newman sings "I'll be guilty all the rest of my life..."
I admit to everything except that IRS slur, I've got a plan, see..
first, you've got to get Incorkerated, then you've got to find a secretary who likes fish but has a thing about nightcrawlers ;-)
duh, Boss!
'n I've got kings in the freezer!
It's okay, I can fix it!
Edited 10/13/2002 6:16:29 PM ET by bucksnort billy
I think I just read your post telling you are a framing contractor ?
I really think its a good question , and it may not be provable . Seems a framing crew should have one , but isnt this usually the boss that works part time ? I guess Im interrested in learning what you think? Would this man be a master frame carpenter ? Or would he have to be the same in finish to have the name ? What about the remoldeling carp? Hes the one that makes his own trims to match existing , and restores . What if he did several trades well, along with carpentry , what would he be ? Im really puzzeled about it . I dont know what to call my self when people ask, not that it matters. An answer would be handy though. Im not kidding in my post here , as Im really serious.
Tim Mooney
To be considered a Master Carpenter, you'll have to be proficient in all aspects of the carpentry trade. This includes form carpentry, framing, trim and cabinets as well as installing hardware. These are residential applications. Commercial work has it's own set of rules.
Unfortunately, there is no "official" testing involved and since carpenters (at least in my state) do not need a license, there is no way to make it official.
If your peers consider you a Master Carpenter then I guess you are one. I suppose I am one after 28 years of doing all the things I mentioned above as well as running my own business for the last 12 years, but I'm not comfortable calling myself a Master Carpenter.
Ed. Williams
Ed , its good to see you here . I made a post today and I was going to go find you . Would you mind stepping over to " board meeting for members " in general discussion ? I would like you to assist us there if you would .
Thanks ,
Tim Mooney
We went thru this a few years ago....actually my question at the time.
Similar responses........no real "official" title anymore.....here in the states.
I'll still go with my old trade school instructors definition......a master carp is one that could build his entire house....from footing to ridge vent.....including everything in between...and do it all well.
This would seem in the modern age of code/license restrictions...to leave out the mechanicals....such as plumbing/ac and electrical.......
and even though there will be much false modesty involved..as there was last time......I'll be the first to volunteer myself as a master carp!
After all.....that's pretty much what I tell a customer looking for an addition.......I can build it from the ground up....and keep a strong eye on the electrical and plumbing subs.
I'll even throw my name into the hat for master craftsman....I build some damn nice stuff...nothing to be ashamed about at all!
Jeff
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Jeff:
I would like to modify the criteria for being a master carpenter..I know many people that have built their house from the ground up..and did a nice job doing it. But most of these houses did not have complicated roof systems like Ken Drake and Joe Fusco used to discuss in entirety. To me..someone that can build a house from ground to ridge cap..that also had a very complex roof under that ridge cap...and was able to demonstrate all the complicated rafter cuts either by square or calculator..is approaching that title of master carpenter. I may be able to cob out a complicated roof..that resembles what the plan says...but in no way would I have done it as a master carpenter. I would be up there with strings and straight edges giving me a rough idea where and what to cut off...while the master carpenters like Joe Fusco or Ken Drake would be down on the ground with all the cuts accurately made.....because they understand what is going on.
Me..I will just stay with stairways..and someday when I am done learning...may be able to say I am a master stairbuilder....but at present..I can honestly say I am not.
It doesn't have anything to do with how 'good' you are as a carpenter, cabinetmaker, whatever....in the original sense, still in use in Europe, it meant you had qualified as a journeyman (that's the technical part), and then gone on to study all the stuff involved in running a business....when you had qualified (usually two years post journeyman), then and only then were you qualified to hang up a shingle, and be a 'master of men'. A journeyman couldn't, and still can't in some places, you have to do the master course. And to prove you can do the technical part, too, you make one piece (in cabinetmaking, anyway)....that's your masterpiece.
I'm involved in an architectural woodwork trade organisation that is trying to institiute post-journeyman qualifications (we still have the apprenticship system in Canada), so someone could qualify as an estimator, lead hand, foreman, and eventually, master. But until that or a similar sytem gets going, it's dead nuts wrong, in my opinion, to refer to anyone as a master, if they did not earn what is still a specific and current title.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
In walks Tim with more to say on the subject ;
I dont know if there is a master carpenter left around here . This may be a thing of the past as far as Im concerened. The industry doesnt work that way here any more . We seem to be in an age of specific talent. We learn other trades on incidental contact.
"To build a house from the ground up and do it all" " To do it well" " To be accomplished at it. " [other than electrical and plumbing]
Well, I dont disagree with what I quoted , but that leaves a passel of things you better be accomplished at such as hanging drywall , painting , finishing concrete & drywall, hanging murials, paper hanging , stair construction , fancy roofs , cabinet building , furniture building . Oh yes , no one mentioned that the master carpenter build the furniture for the home also in the old days .
Equiptment to compete is one problem that I dont see happening , and why would you want to invest that kind of money? How would you justify the tools all that would take in this specific world we live in today?
I will always be like a lawyer , and "practice" the trades.
Tim Mooney
As I keep checking back on this thread ands trying to think of definitions in my own mind, one thing that keeps popping up in my head is diversity of experience. Let me try to explain.
(I might have once been qualified as a master roofer so that's where I'll draw illustration from)
I often see or hear from a roofer who states emphatically that there is one way and one way only to run a valley. He may have twenty years experience laying shingles, do excellent work, and never experienced a leak in working the same locale. But I would not think of him as a master roofer. I know of five ways to run a valley. Not a single one is always correct. There are different methods for different materials, designs, and climates. A master knows all the methods and when to use each.
Projecting the same idea to carpenter, There are multiple methods of building cabinets. I would expect a master carpenter to know at three ways and give a seet of priorities for deciding which to use when.
same idea for door hanging - he should not only be able to install a prehung door. He should be able to hang to hinges with a chisle or router and be able to build the door too.
catch my drift?.
Excellence is its own reward!
The dignified, honorable, puffed-up Piffin wrote "I know of five ways to run a valley. Not a single one is always correct. There are different methods for different materials, designs, and climates. A master knows all the methods and when to use each." I agree.
But I would like to add to it somewhat. The Master not only knows all of the methods but he is also so knowledgable in his craft that he can create new methods.
As for the legal decisions, I think they are confusing "Master" with the term "Contractor".
-Peter
Mediocrity is its own reward.
Lots of fly-by-night 'Master' carpenters in my neck of the woods. I've even seen some of their business cards, and generally, the works doesn't marry up to the claim. I've heard the quote 'from the crown to the ground' enough times to know that that is the wrong sequence. If I was to apply a quote to it, being an American, I would have to go with someone who can "make ice cream out of horse***t". That would make me a believer.
"If left is wrong, then right is the only thing left, right?"
Jeff, are you a master?
Define that for me.
OK.....I'll play along.
You ask me that as a potential paying customer......or.....let's say.....ask me that question in a public forum....where a potential paying customer may be overhearing the conversation........kinda like this......and.........
Yes.....yes I am a master carpenter....and I'm fully confident I can do what it takes to build your project. I have the tools in the van and the know how in my head. I could build you a house from the ground up....but that would take a little more time.....so let's agree that I have the knowledge and ability to hire and direct the subs as needed.
I've laid out batter boards. Dug for foundations. Poured concrete. Laid block. Framed. Roofed. Read prints and laid out interior framing. I've roughed in and finaled both plumbing and electrical....but that'll most certainly be subed out to someone more qualified. Insulated. Rocked. Laid carpet.....hardwood.....sheet flooring....laminate...ceramic tile...flooring. Laid out....framed...and wrapped stairs. Done anything that falls into the trim carp catagory. Set cab's. Built custom built-ins. Wallpapered.....painted..both interior and exterior. Trimmed exterior with various materials. Somewhere in there set bunches of doors..interior and exterior.....and many more times that windows. New.....replacement...and rebuilt..right down to changing the sash cords and adjusting them so the weights don't bang the bottom.
And........I've done most if not all with the decerning eye of a trim carpenter....yet thinking like water!
If someone one paying the bill calls me a "master carpenter"....which they have.....who am I to argue?
I'm not saying I'm the biggest/best/fastest/smartest.......lotsa guys out there can do it all...and do most of it well........I'm just saying there's more than one master carpenter out there....and let's drop the false modesty and run with it.
I'd certainly never tell a customer not to call me a master carpenter because I didn't grow up in 18th century Europe........as a mater of fact..when I go look at a job......I pretty much tell them I'm just about the best guy for the job!
Then..I show them pictures of all the fancy stuff I built.....to back that up. I even give phone numbers of past customers that'll probably tell them in one way or another that "Yeah, Jeff's a master carpenter...he'll do a good job for ya".......
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Or......we could go with my buddy Joe......a lead/project manager.....all around carpenter guy.......that's solved many headaches...on many jobs....mostly nice, big additions.........
His words of wisdom.......a master carp is a guy that runs projects for about 10 yrs.....usually finishing one......in the middle of another....and just about to start a third.......that doesn't lose his mind.......in that 10 year time period.
One guy.......two to three set's of problems...constantly......dealing with both the owner(s)..his boss....and ..the customers....and ....all the subs from all the various jobs......and.....his own crew.
Joe says...do that for at least 10 yrs......and still wake up and drive to work everyday......no major nervous breakdown......and there's your Master Carpenter!
I'm thinking that works too...maybe better than mine......but that same guy is included in mine........Joe's version would be more stringent.......
I don't qualify for his standards as given.
Jeff
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Edited 10/16/2002 6:08:26 PM ET by Jeff J. Buck
Jeff I dont blame you at all. I dont take a negative with what you are saying .
Tim Mooney
I think the idea is that any locale, state or region can form a club and establish a criteria of years of experience and tests you can take to be whatever they say you are. Kind of like going up through the ranks of the boyscouts. The key is Master ACCORDING TO WHAT AUTHORITY.
Paul James on his TV show is a Master Gardener. My step-mother is also Master Gardener, which just means she took a bunch of classes and a test given by the Garden Club of Georgia. She's a housewife. No business, no TV show, but the designation is still valid.
It should just be made clear WHO SAYS somebody is a master. Then you can contact them and find out what their criteria is for the designation if you want. To get to be an NCIDQ Interior Designer takes about as much time, money, and testing as getting to be a licensed Professional Engineer. NCIDQ is just a club. Some states require interior designers to be registered, like architects. In Georgia, they won't register you as an interior designer unless you pass the test given by the club, which is completely unregulated by the government. Go figure.
So who is certifying Master Carpenters? Their state, the regional union, a craft guild, hobby club, or just the jokers on their crew? They can't all be equal. Kind of like a college degree is only as good as the university that gave it to you. A Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering from the Big League Institute of Technology is not the same as a Bachelor of Arts in Business Administration from Party State.
Putting "Master Carpenter" on a business card without identifying the organization that issued that designation is just creepy. "Member Union ##" or "Member State Craft Guild since 19XX" in small print somewhere on the card would be nice.
My point is, it's not an 18th century thing....it's a living, breathing 21st century thing....and you aren't one, and neither am I. Put aside all the romantic bushwah because it doesn't apply, except on TV and for marketing purposes.
So you can build a house from the ground up. That makes you....####carpenter. It's expected, even in this age of specialisation. A carpenter is a good thing to be.
I can cut down a tree, saw it into lumber that I dry, and machine, and turn it into all the interior furnishings of the house, top to bottom....that makes me a cabinetmaker. It's expected. Doesn't make either of us a master, and it doesn't diminish either of us by not being a master. Being a master is a specific thing, which some people is, you and me both not being one of them, if you catch my drift. You want to use it as a sales tool, fine. And, it never did, ever, mean exceptional mastery of the mechanics of the craft.
The guy on this board that comes closest, in an American context, to being a master carpenter, is Ed Williams (in my opinion, and I may be doing a disservice to others whose business I don't know as well). He's a journeyman, and he runs a crew of (28?) journeymen that are doing carpentry....not 'building' like a GC does, which is different again, and valuable in and of itself....carpentry. He is a master of men, a master of carpenters.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
That's supposed to read " a.....carpenter" ....stupid censor.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
. And, it never did, ever, mean exceptional mastery of the mechanics of the craft.
The guy on this board that comes closest, in an American context, to being a master carpenter, is Ed Williams
And now the rest of the story [from me ]
Im going to have to side with Piffin . You make the best sense of any post to me , since we dont have a supreme court law ruling upholding Master carps . Until we have one , I would say Ed and Jeff can be proclaimed if they want . Thats their call, because there is certainly no law against it , and I dont see a moral one . But for a number of american carps , its not fair to say we dont have any, because we havent been tested , and cant be tested in the US. I can build a house from the ground up also, but I dont because Im a business man , which tells me that its a losing deal from the get go. Now you do sit up there where you live as a teacher . You want cabinet makers to be called master cabinet builders. But you are not going to do it until its a certification recorded. Sounds like a teacher . Actually , Piffen had it right when he said it was a brotherhood. [from a different post ] I would still say that you are making sense , but the deal is still not fair in the US. WE have them , they are just not tested , and untill they are , or a supreme court decision rules on us , they may be unofficial, as with the court rulings on plumbers and electricians. Same principals can be applied unofficially . I think probably that you are a certfied teacher, could you not be a teacher of men if there was no testing for certification where you live ? If I take your certification away in the US, would you be qualified to teach an apprentice cabinet building ? I would say unoficially yes .
I guess in the above statement you did mean mechanical only , just because its licensed here . But then you stop, like every one else. Thats where my point is made .
So , here is a list of things a master carpenter must do to be one from someones old book when they used a handsaw all the way through to the finish floor. IMO.
1 He must own and operate a backhoe for his footings for he has to do it all here. And he must own one then because his family would surely starve using a shovel and pick.
2 Morter mixer and concrete mixer , for he will pour all his own footings &slabs , lay all the block [for 1.00 per block] and he will certainly need scaffolds , and a troweling machine .
3 All Framing power tools [ would 10,000 cover that ? ]
4 He will need all the equipment necesary to hang sheetrock , walkups , routers , bakers racks , screw guns , etc . He must be able to hang 60 -4x12x5/8 in 8 hrs per man to make a living .
5 Roofing tools , and he must be able to run 3 sq per hour all day long to make a living .
6 drywall finishing , 7500.00 on tools , from tapetech. He must be able to finish 8, 000 sq ft per week alone , or per man . Big T ex texture machine??????????? 12000.00
Painting . .........
finish carpentry ..........
wall paper ......
Tile ............
carpet .............
cabinets..............
stairs.......
My point has been made . Theres not one if we play by the books rules . Remoldeling yes , not home building .
So the most logical approach swings over to the court rulings.[even though you make sense ] Thats the only way a living can be made in home building . So the two in question would be master carps unofficially . If you say that Ed is , then you agree with the courts . Jeff Buck would also have to be . Master of men .
Tim Mooney
It's been interesting watching this thread grow. I'm an 'artist' according to some of the people that view my work. I'm just way too fuggin' overpriced for poxy chairs and tables, etc., according to others. I've always thought of myself as just a several years trained and qualified furniture designer and maker. But if people want to consider me an 'artist', and that moniker somehow allows me to charge a bit extra for being an 'artist' I'll go along with it as long as I'm at the gallery opening, or whatever. Outside that, I'm just a self employed furniture designer and maker, which I guess means I'm also a master, as I do run the business, ha, ha. Slainte. Website
I'm glad you agree with me, Tim but I'm not sure I agree with you if that makes sense. The point on which we differ is that I reject the govt authority to determine this standard. The courts and we peers may employ same or similar principles in deciding such things but I prefer the organization and association of peers for this sort of accreditation and review to any court recognition of the terminology..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin , I dont think that you do disagree with me . AS Rez said , "it was a botched delivery , I stunk at it" .
I also agree that it "should " come from our peers , but if I see a ruling like what was given about Contractors , Masters , being the same in the carpentry trades , it will be enough for me. I dont want goverment regs either , just like no one I know likes paying taxes. But if the goverment does include certification , then I will have to accept this too, because its democracy . I dont have to agree with it , I just have to abide by our laws.
I should have been more complete in my delivery . Now Im going to have to reply to Jim correcting the same thing , as I did with Adrian.
Tim Mooney
Before you go slamming me as a teacher....implying I'm in some ivory tower....I'm also still a working cabinetmaker, and I've only been teaching here less than two years. Me, and every guy I work with, is a tradesman first, with a lot of years in industry before you can teach. And no, I'm not a certified teacher.....I can't teach in the K-12 system, but I have done a series of courses over two years to make me a better instructor.
You want cabinet makers to be called master cabinet builders. But you are not going to do it until its a certification recorded. Sounds like a teacher
Don't know where you got that; I'm definitely not saying I want cabinet makers to be called masters, I don't....not unless there is a clear set of criteria developed that sets out what that is....set out by the peer group, not government. In Canada, we have that at the journeyman level for all trades, not at the master level. We have a National Occupational Analysis (NOC) (for cabinetmaker, it's about 50 pages, don't have a carpenter one here to check)....it sets out every occupational skill that a journeyman is expected to have, and it is developed and continually updated by working tradespeople. The only role government has is to coordinate the process, publish the NOC, and administer the examination/licensing part. There is no process, and no criteria, to determine what a master is.....so I'm saying, don't use the term, until there is.
And if you've missed it, I have said many times that because the licensing sytem isn't in common use in the U.S, in no way do I hold that against anyone.....I'll continue to think of Jeff as a serious journeyman, same as most of the other guys here, whether there is a piece of paper or not. Not every good Canadian tradesman gets licensed, either, in carpentry and cabinetmaking, because they aren't 'regulated' trades and it's not required.....doesn't mean they aren't good, and I will still regard them as journeymen. But I draw the line at 'Master', especiaily because people use it in a way that means "look how good I am" and I think that usage is cheap and wrong. I wouldn't call him a doctor or a lawyer either, because he isn't one.
BTW, did you know that, as far as I know, the structure to have the traditional licensing system Canada, Britain, Australia, and Europe uses is still on the books in most, if not all, States? It's there, all set up, all you have to do is tell powers that be that you want to use it. And if you want to set up a peer group, that sets out clear criteria for what a master is, and knows, and has some way of determining if those criteria have been met, I'm all for it,and there is nothing stopping anyone.....like I said, there is a group here doing just that, in cabinetmaking.....but it is entirely an industry thing, no government involvement at all. I can't think of a better way to promote consistently higher standards in our field.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
To sort of back up Adrian, if anyone wishes to have a legitimate right to append the title 'Master' to their name, the organisation linked to at the end offers a genuine method. You just do the studying and sit all the necessary tests and papers like anyone else in various trades that wishes to be known as a Master. I believe you can sit the papers, etc., in the US too.
The City and Guilds of London Institute (CGLI) is an independent standard setting body. In the UK at least, you can still be a fine carpenter or cabinetmaker, but if you don't hold a C&G certificate, you'll often be offered less money per hour.
The C&G certificates are widely recognised by employers as a reliable benchmark of a potential employee's training, experience, knowledge, skill, etc.. In my case, I can simply add CGLI 555 Pt.III (Furniture Craft Studies) to a job application and people (in the UK) have a good handle on the minimum that I can do. In the US I find that potential (furniture making) employers seem to be rather frightened off when faced with a qualified furniture maker. They don't seem to understand it at all because there are no qualified furniture makers coming out of whatever US system there is, which appears to be no system at all in TX, where I am. In this town I can find no formal or structured training of any sort for the woodworking trades, but somehow, against all the odds, there are good woodworkers out there. There are a lot of incompetent cowboys too. Slainte, RJ.City and Guilds of London Institute Website
Im sorry you got the idea I was slamming you. At this end I certainly wasnt . I guess I do assume teachers thoughts , which was my mistake in this thread , but in no way ment to be personal to a valued member and a respected one in Breaktime. I also repect you and I enjoy your posts. I still think in my opinion you are thinking like a teacher , and also you make good points. I cant even really argue with anything you are saying ! Where my differences incur with you are that your thoughts are not complete to me . There is a difference between Jeff and a journeymen . A big difference . A journeyman has the responsebility of his work and apprentices if you will , under him. He works 8 hrs and CLOCKS out. Hes free to belong to his wife for the rest of the evening. The only thing he has to worry about is pleaseing the master carpenter over him. Hes not a contractor , he doesnt figgure jobs , hes not responseble for money matters . He really doesnt have a need to be personal with any owners. When questions are asked of him from an owner , he should refer them to his boss, unless they are trivial. But there is a chain of authority . Other wise a receptionest in a lawyers office would be handing out legal advice in the waiting room , before my appointment. A journeyman usually is only needed to carry his pouches full of tools , maybe some more in a tool box across the bed of his truck in which he might furnish a cord and a skill saw . Its ok if he wants to bring his four wheeler to work because he is not expected to run for materials. He has no control over a differnt subcontractor working on the same job and should not be given the responsebility. I could go on and on , but this is a journeyman carpenter. Jeff is not one , and neither am I. I choose not to use the term master , but I have no problems with an active contractor building houses, or remoleling , using it to his customers to reasure them he is one. We are most definately separated from journeymen . The rest will be in a reply to Piffen .
I don't disagree with you....that's why I would describe Jeff and you (and me) as a journeyman (level of technical ability), and a contractor (means you are in the business of doing work for contract,and all that that implies, which may include employing and training apprentices, etc). I think that covers it, for North Americans, and lets just leave the Master thing to people that have done something specific , or the wannabes with the TV shows that are tring to add a little smoke to the mirror thing. Or until WE set something up similar to the European system, if we choose to do so.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I don't see why owning all those tools and equipment has anything to do what you can do with them. That just means you own them. BFD. If you are trying to use "master" to indicate a level of ability, instead of "Master of Men", I think you're barking up the wrong tree regarding qualifications. Owning stuff like tools indicates just that, that you own them. So what?
Brinkmann for president in '04
Hi Jim .
The point to that was from posts way above that stated we should be able to build a house from the ground up if we are to be called a master carpenter. My opinion from this was that it must have been in a very old book! In our world today it isnt possible to be able to do that in an effective sense . The equipment was used to illustrate with the knowledge of using the equipment , that it would be almost impossible to be able to be as effevtive as subs . I feel we are in a specific niche world . Again , the post I made was to make my point that we are living in too modern a world for one man to be building houses from the ground up by himself. If you even tried it Jim , you would have to have to have the equiptment to compete in all trades, and from the money stand point , why would anyone try ? Jeff and I have stated that we can build a house from the ground up, and I assume you can too. But the knowledge shouldnt be used as such, for" value in our time " . I guess Im getting this from Sonny, but I will give an example.
In this area , I can find a carpenter who will lay out and frame me a house for 15 dollars an hour. His "journeymen " will make 12 dollars an hour respectively. I will however be responseble for all materials and major decisions. I will check the job each day if not more .
While he is doing that for me , I might be making service calls making 50 dollars an hour . I may be working as a sub for you taping sheet rock. Now if you accept my price that will be inline with others , I will be averaging 35.00 dollars an hour. I may be at a realestate auction trying to make 10,000 dollars . In any event , I am trying to make the most money. The most money for me is not framing , roofing , pouring concrete etc. , although Im capable . The reason I became a painter , and drywall contractor years ago was it payed better money for me. Once I added the knowledge and equipment , the money got better . But to day a man can not compete with out having modern equiptment and the knowledge how to use it , and be effective, unless he is using it as a niche in remoldeling , or as a handyman. I made the post referring to new homes only .
Tim Mooney
Personnally I think all of you have this master label thing all wrong.For me to honor someone with the title of master I want to work for him as a pupil with admiration and respect knowing that I am receiving an education unequelled. I want to feel as if he is my mentor and his goal is to make me worthy of my profession. He would teach me all he knows so that I feel enlightened by my successful completion of the task he has put before me.Any other reason for the label of master is just that ;a label.
ANDYSZ2
I showed my whole hardwood floors portfolio on this website and Gabe still rejected my application for the FHB Master craftsmens Ballcap to be presented at the annual dinner. Boy I so wanted that cap; the navy blue with gold scripted lettering. Maybe next year or post mortum. GW
hehehehe.
Tim - I have to strongly disagree with your premise that it wouldn't make sense for someone to build a house, from the ground up, by themself. To me it doesn't make sense to sell the few precious hours you have to breath on this earth to the highest bidder. In fact, I believe some people might call that "prostitution". You are certainly entitled to live the way you want, to choose your own path. But I sure hope those aren't the life choices my kids make.
Be good to sit down at Texfest and talk about this some more, Tim.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Wow!
A co-worker once called me," Big Bwanna Head Cheese". Does that count?
sometimes board sometimes knot
Now we are getting somewhere>>>"I believe some people might call that "prostitution"."
I have used that to describe myself, "I am a male prostitute, I'll do anything for a buck". Another answer is "occupation - fool", (Carlinism).
The whole master thing makes for an interesting topic, but master of what? Who says? Train how long? For example, I was in the carpenter's union for about 30 days, many moons ago. If I remember right you were an apprentice after 30 days, a journeyman after 5 years, a master when you have a TV show? Whatever, let's say they had a master title after ten years, I would have been a master of taking wood off a machine to build trusses. I have a friend that is in the union and all he does is metal stud work, so he would be a master of metal studs? The thing is that even if you are provided a title from an organization you may not have the broad experience that the title would seem to imply to others.
What should a Master Carpenter have a mastery of? I don't think you would need to master mechanicals and such, just know how other trades interact with yours. I think you should have a mastery of all things carpentry.
How do you gain this mastery, and how long does it take? Training under a master for a number of years seems to be the hot tip. Some should never be able to gain the title, even if they perform all of the steps.
Oh, I just thought of another level of skill, somewhere between apprentice and journeyman, Ace Carpenter. You can tell the Ace Carpenters because they often have Ace Carpenter embroidered on the bib of their overalls.
Well, for one thing I may be a lesbian , but not a prostitute. LOL. But since you dont want your kids growing up like me , I will take this oppotunity to explain what my take on this subject of master carpenter means to me.
A journeyman does the actual work of his trade , and works people under him doing the same. Ive been on jobs containing all journeymen. There has to be a position over that to deal with the business side of the work. These carpenters I hire work for eveyone by the hour for a wage, and perform the work them selves . They are qualified as framers in my mind. There became a time for me to step up to the next level into business man . Hes responseble for bidding , dealing , payroll, estimating , the overall business side of the trade . My contention was that this person is no longer a journeyman. Just as the chief of police is no longer a patrolmen. So, master has been discussed in this post as the business person. I choose to leave master to people who deserve it , but really the laws qouted made the best sense. I would choose contractor ,as the next step up from journeyman. Hence a full time contractor is no longer a journeyman. I compete with realestate brokers in my area as contractors , so I will never use the words contractor and master to mean the same. This is a different set of rules than that of the plumber and electrician, which of the ladder would have been journeymen first . As long as there are people like brokers , acting as contractors under the law with a license , Master will not be used by me.
Now your answer.
I respect you and I think you are a valued member of Breaktime . It is also your choice to work as a journeyman if you want to because of your love for the work. Thats your call.
When I made the decision to step up to the plate and play ball with brokers and other business people , I had to become a business man.
Im just a businessman who has stayed with his background with homes . Homes are my business. Im a business man first . My journeyman skills feed the first .
I have already made my points to why its not a profitable endeavor to be building homes [ from the ground up]by yourself . If you want to anyway for the love of the work , thats your call. I can understand why a person would want to. Trade work has always been a very "proud " work. Self values are important to many being able to do "it all". I must however stand on my points for value , and reccomend that , that person be a remodeler, which is a very special type of trades man exibiting overall knowledge that I respect. [which pays more money]
Tim Mooney
A couple of people seem confused about where I used the term 'mechanics' of the trade....cuz I see it cropping up in a couple of posts. I'm not talking about the mechanical trades; I'm talking about the mechanics of doing the trade of carpentry or whatever...like picking up a saw and cutting to a line, or driving a nail, or cutting a dovetail, or whatever. Those are the kind of skills I expect a journeyman to have learned. The skills I expect a Master or a contractor....my preferred termm, for North Americans....to have are different, above and beyond those skills, and mostly business oriented. To me, a real master would have all the technical, mechanical skills of a journeyman, and then the business stuff on top....and again, it was traditionally two years on top of the four or five year apprenticeship....just like an MBA.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
A friend of mine's got a business card sez: "Woodwhore Carpentry Co. cheap work done cheap"...he doesn't give it to too many prospective clients!
Tim, if it doesn't pay to build your own house from the ground up, put me down in the poorhouse. I built the house I'm living in for 150K. Subbed footings, foundation, sheetrock, wiring, plumbing, HVAC. I was physically involved in every other aspect. Took a year, plus I still worked running a trim business. Appraised at 305K...I'm ready to do it again, and do the masonry and rock hanging, this time...a little closer to doing it all. But I'll still just be a carpenter...
And Adrian's explanation of the Master Carpenter title is, of course, the real deal...I know a lot of nail bangers that toot their own horns, but seems they're playin' in one man bands... It's okay, I can fix it!
"Tim, if it doesn't pay to build your own house from the ground up, put me down in the poorhouse. I built the house I'm living in for 150K. Subbed footings, foundation, sheetrock, wiring, plumbing, HVAC. I was physically involved in every other aspect. Took a year, plus I still worked running a trim business. Appraised at 305K...I'm ready to do it again, and do the masonry and rock hanging, this time...a little closer to doing it all. But I'll still just be a carpenter..."
Take a snort of this answer Buck ,... LOL
For one thing you dont mention your wages, overhead , profit , free help from family and friends , good deals from your subs as a house warming gift , extra time spent in counsel with wife , your time on calling about material, and your time even on working up the plan and material list. For another the land would be included in the appraisel. Cost of the loan, appraisel, permits , points? Thats one way to figgure it , because if you work with out these things , I would like to move you down here! I noticed that it took a year instead of the customary 90 days from footing, to door locks. The appraisel counted lanscapeing also, where the construction loan would not have normally.
Secondly , [you will like this one better ] If you borrowed the money, you "can " save because the more sweat equity you put in and cash, the less interrest on principal you will pay if you took say 15 years to pay it back. 30 years is really a big figgure to save , its like 100 percent. This is how I buy or build my rentals . Im going to get my labor and cash back two fold. This pays. Also if you keep your house two years , you can sell it with out capitol gain . That would mean of course on closing day , you will get payed for all that labor , and inflation , with out owing the goverment one dime of it. My taxes and social security equals 49 percent ! Of course its the self employment taxes that makes that figgure high. You have a winning plan man , keep it up! Do it until you cant, because this is the best way for a carpenter to get up on the system. Bravo!
The first example shows why you wouldnt do it for the public , and if you did ,.............
Boys , this is simple math . The roofs yall cut are a lot harder to figgure than this. You dont need to argue with me , figgure it your self where you are more profitable. Building houses from the ground up by your self , [which Buck did not do] doesnt figgure the highest profit margin, when building for the public . Buck you slipped building your own in on me , different deal. You guys better do the numbers on some rentals while you are figgureing.
Tim Mooney
I'm thinking we live in way different worlds, maybe even planets...90 days from start to finish, did I mention that I live in this house?
My numbers included everything, no deals except my labor, but my company was still working on other jobs...I'm definitly no financial genius, I'm a carpenter, remember, not a Master carpenter, but point is, it does pay if you can do it all. It's okay, I can fix it!
Peoples,
As I'm new heare I'm just tapping on buttons and trying my best to get an opinion in edgewize......
And here it is...
There is, I doubt, any such thing as a master carpenter. To be profficient in the whole trade inplies profection. I doubt anyone can openly say they are perfect or profficient in all aspects of our vast trade.
At any rate...Once upon a time when first entering the trade and starting my apprenticeship I asks this question and have held 0nto the answer since. A Master Carpenter, which I'd rather refer to as a Master Builder, is that person which holds all the major three building/construction Journeyman papers. Those being Carpenter, Electrician and plumber.
That will be my Canadian response.
Me again,
Forgot something.
Was told once to never concider yourself a Carpenter even though you've passed the appropriate exams and such. After you have that piece of paper indicating you are a Journeyman in the Trade..Work another ten years in the field then feel free to call yourself a Carpenter.
Until then. You may be getting that extra buck or two...but its unlikely at best that you even approach being a true carpenter.
O.K.people now you done it , to quote Boss Hog " I'm as confused as a breast fed baby in a topless bar". I'm begining to wo0nder if I am a carpenter , you know the regular kind. Today I went to a 6 month old house to do a punch list and P.R. and the teenage daughter refered to me as the workman maybe thats what I are.
I think it's important for all of us to recognize that if a carpenter decides to become a businessman, a contractor, that's in no way a "step up". It is a change. That's all. Contractors have different routines, spend their working hours doing different tasks than carpenters. That doesn't make them "above".
In fact, I'd say carpenters can get along just fine without contractors. The same can't be said about contractors getting along without carpenters.
You enjoy selling? Great. You enjoy trying to find the cheapest prices on labor and materials? All the more power to you. You enjoy spending mental energy shaving 1/2 of 1% off your overhead or adding it to your profits? Have at it. It takes all kinds. Every time I read this stuff about some slick technique of selling a job or micro managing your business it makes me want to puke. How the heck did we ever get to the point where we applaud those with the most wealth?
Let me ask you this. If there was no money, if you could just go to the store and get the goods you need whenever you needed them, would you still do what you do for a living now?
I'd rather create something, maybe something worthwhile, like shelter, or maybe even a legacy. I'd like to teach eager young carpenters what I can, to nourish their development like my mentors helped me.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Well said legs, its the one that has the sharpest planes within hands reach that gets my attention, and bossman can send me 29.95 and a self addressed stamped envelope and I will send him a certificate.
I'm starting to think my buddy Joe had the best definition.
And...now that BB and blodget are talking to each other here.....I'd have to say...there's two masters talking.........
and who's gonna argue! Let's throw in Smith too...he's been missing for a while..and I know he does both...build and manage....and build while managing.......
Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
thanks for the compliment Jeff, but it ain't me, I have plenty of limitations, there is only one carpenter that I could call master.
Jeff,
Who is Joe, and what did he say? You just sent me through all these posts and hes not here, as far as I can see .
Jim, I agree to your last post. No one is above . If money wasn't an object , I would be doing the work I love to do. That's why for one that I respect you and others that do it. For me however , money is in the issue , and I've chosen to pursue it. Its a choice all Americans have the choice to make. I could sit here and tell you what I don't like about our system , or I can react to it accordingly. I have chosen to "act".
Buck,
Doing it all certainly does pay! You found a situation where it paid nicely, and there are others too. For one thing the knowledge you carry are like tools in the van , its there if you need it . Over the years I've been able to rely on knowledge to get me through some hard times. Its about like a college education for those that are involved in work that requires it. My praise goes out to every one that can do it all ! You are in a select group , governed by the chances you had in your past , for not every one has had the same opportunity. This last winter was the roughest in a long time for me , so I hired out as a superintendent . The job was in effect calling on my past knowledge to answer a need . It answered . I was lucky . Nuff said .
To all,
My problem with Roberts quoting of the law, seems to have holes in it that brokers are allowed to be licensed contractors . In my application for a contractors lisenese, architects, structural engineers were exempt from testing ! So that premise fails to describe the master -contractor be the same !
Adrian brings up many good points , though there is a vast spread , in his explanation of journeyman . Un till someone comes up with something better , master may be forever in question. Which is where I started in this thread. Let people like Norm be on TV using it for the public view. I will also agree with him that we have journeyman skills . Moving on from there to contractor is just that , a business man. Being all three above ? Sure , why not ? My approach was to show it would be impossible to be a master of it all . You know , I really didn't care one way or another , I was just here to learn . I did manage to piss three people off [at least ] that I respect , for no good reason.
Tim Mooney
"I did manage to piss three people off [at least ] that I respect , for no good reason."
Tim - if you're thinking you pissed me off, nothing could be further from the truth. I respect your opinion and your right to voice it. If I have differing opinions I voice them. That's what makes these boards a great way to exchange ideas - we don't know each other, we get to take our time before responding, we get to read and reread other poster's words. It's not personal. Your opinions are every bit as valid as mine. If you were here I'd shake your hand and you'd see my sincere smile.
Jeff - thanks for the compliment, but I am far from a master of anything. I'm a carpenter. Like some poster said earlier, this profession is far too deep, too intricate, for me to master. Maybe someone else is capable of it, but I'm not. Every time I work with someone else I notice something they do that I think is more efficient, that I hadn't thought of. Every time I work alone, I invent new methods or look at a familliar task in a new way. That doesn't sound like someone who has "mastered" anything to me. But that's what I love about our profession, the older I get, the more I realize it's more of an art than a science.
I'm sure many people tried carpentry and found it boring, low paying, dirty. After 25 years I still find it stimulating, challenging and fun. I can't imagine any way a higher paying profession would enrich my life more than the one I have.
I gotta go patch holes in the walls of our duplex (with 20 minute hot mud and paper tape). Peace to all, even you Canadians.
Brinkmann for president in '04
Okay, I used the term'above and beyond' when it came to specific 'master' training....didn't mean it as in 'better', just as in 'further' training n busness and management.
Master aside....if anyone is interested in what skills a journeyman should have, like I said before, in Canada we have a NOA or NOC (National Occupational Analysis or Nat. Occ. Classification....I don't have any of the books in front of me, and I can't remember exactly which the skills description is, but I'll get back to you on that).
I assume the U.S has something similar, but I couldn't turn it up in a quick search, but your individual dept.s of labour, probably, would have it. Anyway, Like I said, for my trade, it's about 50 pages of fairly specific skills, under broader headings, that tradespeople across the country agree a journeyman should have. These documents guide the curriculum of every apprenticeship and community college trade program in the country.....you are required to refer to and be guided by this as you train new tradespeople. Not to turn out carbon copies, but to ensure consistency.....as the Canadians have mentioned, we have a national (called Interprovincial) licensing system, so if you pass the exam in Nova Scotia, you are qualified in all the other provinces too....so there has to be consistency for that to work.
Anyway, there must be something similar in the States, and some of you might find it interesting to look and see if you really can do everything that's spelled out there. cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
All of this is fine and dandy, but the term Master Carpenter is a subjective title. To say that anyone who completed a specific series of courses would gain that title is ludicrous and I also believe that anyone who could deem themselves a Master Carpenter would have no need to do so. That guy or gal is going to be way too busy. What you are talking about is a Phd. in Carpentry. I once worked for a guy who said he had a Phd. in Carpentry, if you couldn't cut down a tree and make a dining room set, you were not a carpenter (which is why I suppose he told the next contractor I applied to that I wasn't the 4th year carpenters apprentice I supposed myself to be). He also told me that, "Tools are half the job!", shortly before he borrowed my drill for the weekend. You've got to be able to slip and slide a little to have a Phd. in Carpentry.
Dr. of Carpentry; sounds like you could breathe life back into the wood itself...
sometimes board sometimes knot
It's not ludicrous, and it's not subjective...it's a living breathing thing, with a fair degree of regulation, and there are thousands of people out there that have done something specific to earn the title.....but it's not available in North America....which is what I've been saying over the last hundred posts. A North American simply appropriating the title is ludicrous.
Lot's of Phd's in the trades out there...it's a Plumbing/Heating Diploma. Joke.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
My buddy Joe......I mentioned in a post here.....his lunch time take on this whole nonsense.......
..a master would be a guy that fought with his bosses and the homeowners....and kept them from fighting with each other......and built stuff all day....while having the cell ring off the hook all day.....and deal with late/missing employees/subs/materials.....and last minute designer and/or client changes.......
and kept a good attitude...and got himself outta bed everyday.....pretty much with a smile on his face.........
for a period of no less than 10 years......all the while not having a major nervous breakdown. The no break down being the biggest point of the title.
He said he knew a guy...fantastic carp.....great lead.......could frame with the fastest of them......build the impossible......highly skilled trim guy and also cabinetmaker........well....a few years later......he stopped by one of the guys job sites...and the guy was pushing papers.......said he was never gonna touch a hammer or saw again......had a bad run in with some wood......some complex detail he couldn't figure........and he lost it. Went nuts........the wood beat him up....
or as my Dad would say...don't let the wood outsmart ya.........and it outsmarted this guy......so he failed to become a master!
Jeff
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Hmm, master of the wood, eh Jeff? I knew a girl like that once...
"house I'm living in for 150K. Subbed footings, foundation, sheetrock, wiring, plumbing, HVAC. I was physically involved in every other aspect. Took a year, plus I still worked running a trim business. "
Actually , you already made my point. Does trimming pay better than rock hanging and finishing for your trim crew ? I guess you could have got them out there finishing concrete ,and payed them to dig and pour the footings. No, because trim payes better for you , doesnt it ?
Bring me some drywall, and oh yes , I need to call a roofer .
Tim Mooney
I would like to emphasize that using the distinctions between master and journeyman as used in the court decisions cited (or contractor and mechanic - if you prefer those terms), carries with it a different type of contract that can be made in each occupation.
It is a fundamental principle of United States constitutional law that every person can make contracts in the occupation he chooses to follow. Therein, a journeyman plumber (mechanic) would make contracts to plumbing work. A master plumber (contractor) would make contracts to employ journeyman plumbers.
Suppose a property owner needs plumbing labor performed on his property. If he does not perform the labor himself, then a journeyman plumber must be employed to do the work. The cost to the property owner is then the contracted amount charged by the plumber.
Since, as indicated in the court decisions, a master plumber employs journeyman plumbers, a master plumber's contract would be to employ journeyman plumbers. If the property owner employs a master carpenter (contractor) to employ a journeyman plumber, then the cost to the property owner is the amount specified in the contractor's contract plus the amount specified in the mechanic's contract.
This reasoning is in line with the fact that when the property owner does not act as his own plumbing contractor, then the plumbing contractor employed is the owner's agent. In Arizona, where I live, the licensing laws for plumbing contractors states that no person shall act as agent without first obtaining a license. The mechanics' and materialmenn's lien law in this state also states that all contractors and subcontractors are agents of the property owner.
So what the hell does a master plumber have to do with being a master carpenter?
I checked with my master plumber today.....he can't even layout a rafter.
Master or Journey Carp can and do legally make the same contracts. As a matter a fact.......in states w/o licensing.....a master DIY can write and sign the same contract as the other two.
Oh...now I see your point...you meant if a master plumber decides to do carpentry on the side.....
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
The court decisions I cited earlier in the post related to master plumbers and journeyman plumbers or master electricians and journeyman electricians. Therefore, I used those for reference. I am sorry if you cannot see the correlation by substituting the term carpenter for plumber or electrician.
How does a DIY'er enter into a contract with himself. By definition a contract is an agreement between two or more parties.
If master plumber (contractor) and journeyman plumber (mechanic) are different occupations, then how could they make the same type of contract? The same applies to master carpenter and journeyman carpenter.
With no disrespect intended, I doubt if you have greater knowledge of the law in the U.S. than the justices of the state Supreme Courts who made the rulings in the cases cited. I have seen not seen you post any authority (court decisions) to back up your statements.
If a journeyman carpenter is a person who performs labor, then he can make a contract to personally perform carpentry labor. If a master carpenter is a person who does not personally perform labor, then how would he make a contract to personally perform labor? Again, go back to the decisions cited, read what the courts say, and substitute the term carpenter for plumber or electrician when reading.
If a journeyman carpenter is a person who performs labor, then he can make a contract to personally perform carpentry labor. If a master carpenter is a person who does not personally perform labor, then how would he make a contract to personally perform labor? Again, go back to the decisions cited, read what the courts say, and substitute the term carpenter for plumber or electrician when reading.
While I belive there are some folks who are utterly unprovedly pretentious about their talents and titles, I don't think substituting carpenter for plumber or electrician in your cited decisions is going to get anyone anywhere in court. I think, maybe you oughta prove that one...
Just a dumb butt carpenter, who formed a corp., works every day with people he hired and reports to the money extracting authorities, gets and writes contracts on jobs and works to the spec's...and oh yeah, respectfully yours))) It's okay, I can fix it!
Your correllation between the trades is an interresting one . The problem that the concensus of this group has is that we are more like the lawyer practiceing law . We understand that the more we know , the more we need to know , for it just uncovers more to learn . Have you ever read a book on a subject you thought you were knowledgeable in ? Well, I have . I got my self humble in most cases, because the next pro brings more to the table . WE are in some pretty select company here . I have a lot of respect for a lot of the guys here , but their talents differ, and I would like to work with them because I could spend a lifetime learning from them if I could make the circle.
The master plumber has been told he is a master. Thats more like master mason . Its one segment of the trades , where a carpenter has many . Too many to be called a master. Some day our peers might be able to settle it .
Dont get your dobber down , because you very well could be the right one when a case hits the courts . You have very strong points . But it needs to be given by our peers , not a court of law. IMO.
Tim Mooney
Out of curiosity I would like to pose the following situation to the readers of this topic.
Suppose your state, under the title 'Master carpenters', enacted legislation that stated: "Every master carpenter, as a revenue measure for the state, shall pay a fee of $100.00 per year. Every master carpenter who does not comply shall be subject to fine or imprisonment or both."
Who among you would pay?
This is a troubling subject. As others have mentioned here, there are people in my area (GA) that have master carpenter on their business cards or other advertisements. When pressed on the issue, their standard reply is "I have been doing this for X number of years and I have seen it all."
I have been in and out of construction for the past 19 years and I know there is still much to see and learn. I think instead of titles such as master and journyman, (since we really don't have a nationwide system of standards) a better gauge of a carpenters abilities are past works, years and types of experience and his personal "comfort" level for taking on the task at hand.
Just my humble opinion.TCW Specialists in Custom Remodeling.
Thats an easy question . I think I can speak for most all here, that we would pay !
Same thing happened to me in Arkansas last year . They required the residential contractors to be state licensed . They allowed us a year to grandfather in , before they made it mandatory law. Now any house built must have a permit with a state licensed contractor number attatched for utilities to be turned on to the house , plus up to a 5000 dollar fine for non compliance. There is now a test to take . This is the same as the plumbers. So,....Im a state licensed contractor. Are you asking me if I would become a master carpenter under the same provisions ? Of course , because I wont lose my right to exercise my trade. The difference now is that remodel carpenters are not licensed here . Your idea would put us all in the same boat . And yes , just exactly like plumbers. They are losing money on that deal arent they? LOL.
So for anyone to work under contract they must be a master carpenter , even such as fences and decks , would be an example.
We then would be state licesed master carpenters . Your point is made . Exellent example of what you have been saying drom the beginning .
Two things gathered from this post ;
We dont want goverement regulation , but it might happen .
We want the title to come from our peers , not the goverment .
I can see good things comming from such a regulation , as the bad things. The one thing that comes to mind is that a journeyman carpenter is not payed on master plumber scale. That is wrong ! I think I pissed some carpenters off when I told what I pay my framers. I dont think its right in this town that a journeyman carpenter get paid 15 and a master plumber gets payed 35. That might just be our own fault !
Tim Mooney
I also feel a little uneasy about this "title" which seems to be thrown in my direction on a regular basis, as in: "Go ask Charley, he's the Master Carpenter on the job" etc. I'm sort of the guy where the "buck" stops, who answers the questions, who decides the details, and how to go about them. It feels a little odd when someone ten+ years my senior in age asks me "how" to do something. I have been doing this for 18 years full time and am always looking for ways to "improve", does "Master" imply there is no more to learn? I think the term might come from the "Craft Guild system" as in Apprentice, Journeyman, Master in what ever trade it was being applied to.SUGARLOAF WOODWORKING
Architectural Woodworking & Quality Restoration of Older Homes
"Anything is Possible"
I think the title above master in some circles would indeed be Grand Master
I can't read all the posts here, but the term you are looking for is carpenter. Someone here asked me what I do and I didn't know what to say, but I guess that would suffice.
As far as the master thing, I agree you have to have a tv show or live in another country. Didn't the Mark from the upside down world say they give Masters down there?
Well, ..... WE have discussed it to everyones enjoyment. I got your message and came here , set my thinking again . Stan didnt think he was one . He posts his pictures here for all of us to see , hes pretty modest about it , but I guess if he doesnt feel that he is a master , I know dang well Im not . Im a state licensed contractor who subs his framing . I do all of the interiors except carpet. I do wear several hats in remodleling too, but I dont build stairs like Stan. I dont cut complicated roofs . I also heard , from the ground up, doing every thing except mechanical. I would still like to meet the man that is a pro at all the trades in a home , and can compete with sub contractors in each feild . Ive been practiceing this for a long time , but my past experience has not allowed me the time to spent on hard roofs or exellent stairs . I am a business man . I will never say Im a master carpenter , when I know there are men such as Jerald Hayes, and Stan Foster around . MY hat will always be tipped to them and people like them. They are the ones who deserve it , if we are going to hand it out. If they arent , then no one is a master carpenter. IMO. For myself , as I said , it doesnt matter . I still dont know what to say, because Im an investor mostly , but not full time at that either . I guess I will stay undercover .
Tim Mooney
The Supreme Court of Georgia defined master plumbers and employing plumbers to be one and the same, and to be those who did not hold themselves out as personally doing the work, but as contracting to furnish the material and to do the work through others, while journeyman plumbers were defined to be those skilled in the business and holding themselves out as able and willing to do the work themselves. Felton v. City of Atlanta, 4 Ga. App. 183, 61 S.E. 27.
A license law in the city of Dallas, Texas defined a master plumber to be an employing plumber and a person who does not hold himself out as personally doing plumbing work, but as contracting to furnish the material and doing the work through others, while journeyman plumbers were defined to be those skilled in the calling and holding themselves out as being able and willing to do the work of a plumber. Trewitt v. City of Dallas, 242 S.W. 1073.
The Supreme Court of Louisiana said: "There is a well-recognized difference between a master plumber and a journeyman plumber, and this distinction is noted by the trial judge. The former is a plumber who employs plumbers, and the latter is one who does the actual work of plumbing." State v. Malory, 168 La. 742, 123 So. 310. In that case, the law required journeyman plumbers to obtain a license.
In relation to a law requiring licenses of journeyman plumbers, the Court of Appeals of Kentucky said: "This creates a distinct class to be dealt with by the law, and is founded upon the distinction between the persons who actually perform the work of plumbing and those who merely contract to do plumbing and employ other persons to do the work, the latter class being the employing or master plumbers. In the opinion of the Legislature the necessity existed for restraining and regulating the one and not the other. Doubtless the basis for the distinction arises from the fact that the defects in plumbing and the dangers to be guarded against from improper and defective plumbing chiefly arise from the ignorance, incapacity or want of skill, in the persons who actually do the work of plumbing, rather than from the want of qualification in the employing plumber, who does not actually perform the work." City of Louisville v. Coulter, 177 Ky. 242, 197 S.W. 819.
From the reasoning of these cases, it is evident a master carpenter is a carpentry contractor and a journeyman carpenter is a mechanic.
Damn , this is getting interresting . And I thought from the first it wouldnt go any where !
Ok. This would mean that a licensed residential contractor, in a given state that requries a license , would state in a court of law that he was a master carpenter.[ Im getting hooh rahs ritght now] [maybe rotten fruit ] This may stand up in a court of law , but we all know its ridiculas ! I dont want to speak negative , but the post that said the instructor said that he should be a person to build everything from the ground up seems from a past century. It sounds like something in a very old book. I realize in doing an addition , remodeler types , sometimes do it all because of the size of the job. On a full blown house , .....come on now. Interrest would eat your lunch, your home , your wife , and anything else you tried to own. Maybe in Jeffs business its true , but this isnt the way its done in new home construction. Ive got to keep thinking here that we need to put this away in the history books. I can do it all, but in specified areas as other posters here in this thread and the ones mentioned, I could not compete with them. I also dont think they can hang and tape rock with me . These are just facts as I see them . I could never be a stair carp, like Stan , unless I concentrated on it for a "WHILE" ! Same with Joe on roofs . Have we mentioned brick laying ? I would feel more comfy with master drywall finisher , or one of the others . But to be a master at the whole shebang ? Come on now .
By the way , this is the reason I use subs , like most folks do.
Tim Mooney
Tim: You should have seen my last attempt at drywall taping. I almost had to go and rent a tool that wasnt even invented yet to fix it.
I've got one final comment on this.....because I've been thinking of people I know the last few days. I deal more with cabinetmakers than carpenters, in some ways, and that's the trade I know best......anyway, I personally have met probably eight or so people that went through the Master process in Europe. I know there at least three I can think of in this province, maybe more, and there are less than a million people here; more in Ontario and probably the highest concentration in Canada is in the West. I've run across a few on the internet forums working in the States, also, and I suspect there are a goodly number there. So I'm going to take a guess that there are at least dozens, maybe hundreds, and possibly thousands of people out there in North America that can claim that title, in the cabinetmaking trade. Don't know about carpentry.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Isn't his Normness a Master carpenter?makinsawdust
"From the reasoning of these cases, it is evident a master carpenter is a carpentry contractor and a journeyman carpenter is a mechanic."
I don't think the law sees it quite as clearly as do you. In terms of licensing, plumbers and electricians are treated very distinctly from carpenters. I agree with you in general terms that there are many similarities in practice. By your definition, I am a master carpenter because I do perform all the differing tasks and I hire and supervise others to do the same. One cusatomer made the statement that I had probably already forgotten more than most carpenters know yet. But I am no way a master carpenter, just a halfway decent remodeler and designer.
This does tie into all of our discussions about elevating professional standards and liccensing tho. The fact that it is something we are all interested in is a good sign for the industry..
Excellence is its own reward!
You are correct that, in terms of licensing, plumbers and electricians are treated different than carpenters.
In declaring a statute requiring regulatory licenses of paper hangers as unconstitutional, the Court of Appeals of Maryland said: (The art of paper hanging is one that requires manual dexterity, skill, and some experience. It differs in that respect not at all from similar occupations, such as house painting, carpentry, stone cutting, bricklaying, horseshoeing, repairing machinery, wood carving, plastering, and the like, which men have from time immemorial followed without regulation or interference as a matter of common right and which have no substantial relation to the public health or safety. ... There must of necessity be somewhere a limit to the right of the state to regulate the common useful and harmless activities of life beyond which the state may not go without destroying those guarantees, and this statute has passed that limit.) Dasch v. Jackson, 170 Md. 251, 183 A. 534.
In State v. City of Sheridan, 25 Wyo. 347, 170 P. 1, it was declared unconstitutional to require cement contractor licenses of those contracting concrete, cement, or artificial stone projects. The Court ruled that such activity has nothing to do with the public health, safety, welfare, or morals of the public and therefore is not subject to regulation.
Plumbers and electricians can be subject to regulatory licensing.
Since you agree to Piffin that we are not treated the same . where are we in this dicussion as far as you are concerned ?
Tim Mooney
My agreement with Piffin is that carpenters are treated different from plumbers and electricians pursuant to licensing under the police power. Courts in the United States have consistently upheld the right of a state or city to license plumbers and electricians. Conversely, carpenters have been held to be excluded from such regulation. That is the reason I quoted from the Dasch v. Jackson case. That is all that I meant as far as being treated different.
Ok , but you didnt answer every thing .
Tim Mooney
I wasn't tryuing to diverrt this discussion back into the licensing issue. Tried to spring from that point to using same principles to apply to this issue. Can I try to re-direct?
As I understand it, the point of law that makes a diff in licensing authority is where the trade affects the general public as opposed to trades that are only concerned with the individual person they serve.
Since licensing in it's history proceeds from trade guilds, where we find an absence of guilds or the contemporary, trade associations, to promote high standards and equivalency ratings to define such as journeyman or master, any master con artist is free to proclaim himself as such. We find ourselves with a vacumn which the govt is eager to fill with licensing controls, but often without standards of measurement.
The more I think about it, resurrecting trade guilds would be a good thing. Maybe NAHB is a sample or a shadow of what could be..
Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with the post from Cape Breton regarding the existing title of Master. It is a European designation for their trades people and only after having gone through the stringent training is one allowed to use the title. Here in Canada, Alberta specifically, we have a highly defined apprenticeship system. It takes four years of on the job training/working with a certified journeyman and four sessions of two months each in technical school. This gives the individual approx. 10 months of on the job training hours and 2 months of the technical side of things, safety, trade math, code, blueprint interpretation etc. At the end of each technical training period the person must write and pass a provicial government exam to be able to move on to the next year of training. At the end of the four years the person will write a prov. govt. exam to be certified as a Journeyman Carpenter in the province of Alberta, they also write an Interprovicial Exam which recognizes their journeyman status across Canada, ( except Quebec......). That is the extent of the levels of Carpenter, Cabinetmaker trade here in
Canada other than some Gold Seal programs a journeyman can add to their portfolio, which are further training or documented experience in estimating, project coordination, business etc.So this leads me to a final question, what type of system do you folks have state side for recognizing your trades?
Jeff Up North (Journeyman Cabinetmaker, Journeyman Carpenter and Trades Instructor)
System?
There's a system?
We use money to recognize tradesmen..
Excellence is its own reward!
Jeff;
Yup....me too....journeyman Industrial Woodworker (Ontario), and journeyman Cabinetmaker (Nova Scotia; Red Seal(Interprovincial). May do the carpentry certification one day too. My degree is filed away somewhere....my journeyman tickets are framed and on the wall.I'm particular about how the terms get used, although there is nothing to stop anyone in most places in Canada from just calling themselves a carpenter or cabinetmaker, and many do. The group I was talking about is AWMAC (Architectural Woodwork Manufacturers Assoc. of Canada); they're spearheading the post-journeyman certification thing...leading to master certification...which will be the only legitimate Master designation in the wood trades in North America, if it happens (the main impetus is coming from Alberta, by the way).
If the rest of you guys want to persist in hanging some kind of romantic master=exceptional craftsperson association on the term, I can't stop you....but it's not what it means. And there is at this point no legitimate way to earn the designation, in the wood trades, in North America....unless you travel to Europe. I get a lot of people trying to hang the term on me (meaning it as a compliment, and really, I'm not trying to blow my horn here, noone is more aware of my shortcomings than me), and I respectfully inform them that the term means something specific, and I haven't earned the right to it. Although I do own a woodworking business, and I have employed apprentices, and I do undertake woodworking contracts, which by the slightly looser definition Robert haugen is putting forth (and which makes a lot of sense in the U.S context, because you mostly don't have the formal certification processes), would entitle me and lots of other people here to the term. It still doesn't have anything to do with the particular level of skill one practices the trade with.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Thanks Adrian, that's the finest answer I've heard on the subject..
Excellence is its own reward!
Hopefully, by providing actual case law, the readers here have gotten a better understanding of how the legal system in the United States defines a master electrician, master plumber, et cetera.
It is amazing that so many involved in the construction industry do not understand this. The city of Shreveport, Louisiana once had an ordinance that stated in subsection F of section 7: "Every master electrician, or his qualified representative who shall be a master electrician shall actually and continually supervise, direct and superintend all electrical work installed by him in the city of Shreveport." The ordinance also provided that no person, firm or corporation could engage in the electrical business without first obtaining a master electrician's certificate (license) issued in the name of the individual who qualified for the certificate. City of Shreveport v. Bayse, 166 La. 690, 117 So. 775.
If one did not understand what a master electrician was, then how would he know to obtain a certificate (license).
From my previous post citing the distinction between master plumbers and journeyman plumbers, the distinction was that a master plumber was engaged in plumbing contracting while journeyman plumbers were engaged in performing actual plumbing work. Similarly, a master electrician is engaged in electrical contracting.
It is obvious that an electrical contractor is engaged in electrical contracting and therefore master electrician and electrical contractor are synonymous terms. Compare the Shreveport ordinance just cited with City of Milwaukee v. Rissling, 184 Wis. 517, 199 N.W. 61. The Milwaukee ordinance required all persons, firms and corporations engaged in electrical contracting to obtain a license and no license would issue without the designated supervisor who was subject to examination to qualify for the license.
You see that in both instances the individual who qualifies for the license is the person required to supervise. It is therefore evident that electrical supervisor, electrical contractor, and master electrician are synonymous terms. Read the statutes of the states that have licensing laws for plumbing contractors or electrical contractors. The common feature is that the person who qualifies for the license will be required to supervise.
I want to tell you that I very much appreciate you contribution on this subject , as I do many others . You have delivered your point very well. I aplaud you for your fine effort. Thanks .
What I wanted in addition to you clinging to the law in this issue , is in your own words try to tie this information to the master carpenter . In your believe , should the master carpenter , contractor, superviser , be one in the same ? Or , is this impossible , as we are judged differently ? I read the laws several times , so I have a good understanding of what they meant . But one law had said that paper hangers , and then a list under , werent important for health reason I think. Anyway, read my above post and please comment on our issue at hand . Maybe you just did , but I would like you to say it , if this is what you meant . If this information has no bearing on the building trades , because we are not to be treated as such, then this information is mute, even though interresting .
Thanks for you time on this matter , I can see you went to some trouble . I reconize it .
Tim Mooney
Carpentry contractor, master carpenter, and carpentry supervisor are synonymous terms just as plumbing contractor, master plumber, and plumbing supervisor are synonymous terms and electrical contractor, master electrician, and electrical supervisor are synonymous terms. Therefore, being synonymous, they mean the same thing.
In the Dasch v. Jackson case cited previously and declared unconstitutional, the statute required paper hanging contractors to obtain a Class A license and journeyman paper hangers to obtain a Class B license.
If the property owner acted as journeyman and performed his own labor in paper hanging his property, then he was not required to obtain a journeyman's (Class B) license. If the property owner did not perform his own labor, then he was allowed to act as his own contractor and contract with journeyman paper hangers who held Class B licenses. The property owner was exempt from the requirement for a Class A (contractor) license in such case.
Thank you!
Tim Mooney
Wait a minute . How come there is a lands scape license ? Why are some of us licensed in our state ? Why is there a contractors license for hanging wall paper ? It is a mechanics lisense to do commercial. But then we have a residential license for building . So what gives there ? Should we have an Arkansas suoreme court decision ?
Tim Mooney
couldn't agree with bandit more!
and after viewing Stan's photos of some of the work he's done i would say that title would apply.
Thanks guys..but I am not a master carpenter..master stairbuilder...just a master attempter...
Guys...it means 'the boss'....nothing whatsoever to do with how good you are on the tools, or even how much you know (but if you have to be a journeyman first....the rule most places...you're going to be competent). The master has a business, or runs a crew....master of men, not of the craft side of things....that's just a misperception that's been perpetuated by the Norm Abrams of this age using the term out of context.
Never thought I would find myself in agreement with Robert haugen.
cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
"Never thought I would find myself in agreement with Robert haugen."
It must be so. I cant disagee with the law . This is the only way it makes sense to me . But , I still wont call a builder a master carpenter un less I give him the name. So, as a peer , he doesnt get it from me unless in my eyes he deserves it. He may be called a master builder. I cant change my thinking on this subject in my mind , but Im ready to advance in thought after what I think Ive learned here today . Im like Jeff , I attempt it all , Im a contractor , I handle people , But Im not a master carpenter. Ive worked with them , just a handful in my life time. Nope , Im not one ! But the law would say I am. sheez!
Tim Mooney
There is no such thing as a master carpenter. Carpenters that have reached proficiency are known as journeymen . Many years ago in europe carpenters traveled from one town to another and many times from one country to another. Hence the name journeymen. The first time I heard the phrase master carpenter was on the tv show This Old House. The producer Robert Morash insisted Norm be labeled as a master carpenter. Norm objected but Bob won out.I have been a carpenter 41 years and only on television have I heard this term used.
The first time I heard the phrase master carpenter was on the tv show This Old House. The producer Robert Morash insisted Norm be labeled as a master carpenter. Norm objected but Bob won out.I have been a carpenter 41 years and only on television have I heard this term used.
I think Master Carpenter is a Theater/TV/Movie term, like Best Boy or Key Grip. Sunday Boston Globe had an interview with Norm a while ago - he seemed embarassed by the title.
here in minn. the union has an exam you can take
What are the pre-requisites to be able to sit for the exam..
Excellence is its own reward!
don't know--i have never looked into it and not sure what the point of it is either.--i do know of a couple guys at work who have done this & have a little sticker on their hard hats.info should be available from the union---unless i'm wrong about the whole thing.
Here's the way it is,
A master of anything is just that. But no one can master anything. To be able to master something you would have to have approached it from every direction possible and seen every possible problem and solved them masterfully.
The fourth definition (that's right #4) in my dictionary is "One highly skilled, as in a trade".
Nobody can master the carpentry trades. There is always something you've never built, seen, done, heard-of, experienced, thought about or tried. To call oneself a master carpenter and to mean you've mastered the trade is just arrogant.
When I refer to a person as a master carpenter, I am referring to his carpentry skill level. He doesn't have to know how to pour concrete or hang drywall or paper, he doesn't have to know how to install a heat pump or wire a 220 circuit for the dryer. He is a master carpenter. Not a master builder.
I my view, he does have to know how to do anything involved with the wood portion of homebuilding. Again, I refer to the dictionary:
Carpenter - One whose occupation is constructing, finishing and repairing wooden objects and structures.
It doesn't say anything about backhoe's, wallpaper or people skills. It doesn't say anything about what kind of tools he uses. And it doesn't say anything about owning a business.
If you go to college and get a masters degree, do you call yourself a master engineer or a master psychologist? Of course not.
I don't like the term master carpenter because anyone can use it. There is no sheep skin hanging on the wall to back it up. It's like a record producer. All you have to do to be one is tell people you are one. If enough people believe you, then you are one.
That's all I have to say. Me, personally, am I highly skilled in the carpentry trade? After 28 years, you betcha. Would I ever call myself a master carpenter, no way.
I gotta go. We're flying out to the Texas coast for a week of relaxation. The man I'm leaving in charge of my company is not what I would consider a master carpenter. But his is a good carpenter and he has several masters to lean on.
Gotta go!
Massuh Ed.
You nailed how I feel about this. (GACC Dallas)
You want to be a Master Carpenter, then master the skills of carpentry. Carpentry skills only. If you want to hang paper on the wall then master anything else you want.
While it is true that you have to have other skills to make a living in this business, to be a Master Carpenter you have to have mastered the skills and knowledge of carpentry.
I find it interesting that the ones I think would be considered masters think they are not. I do not think you have to know everything, no one does.
I think it is all relative on how a person views what is and what is not a master carpenter. The criteria for being a master carpenter are much lower for a fledgling beginner than for an experienced carpenter.
As for myself... again-it is relative...all I have to do is go visit the major stairbuilding factories in Chicago...and I always come home realizing I have so much more to learn...and no way will I ever approach considering myself a master carpenter. It is a very strong catalyst for me to see superior work..as it makes me strive to improve my work.
In my eyes......I just always will know that I am going to be somewhere near the midpoint between a fledgling and a master.
Kind of like the more you know the more you realize there is to learn...SUGARLOAF WOODWORKING
Architectural Woodworking & Quality Restoration of Older Homes
"Anything is Possible"
Ah, the definition of genius; seeing the obvious that none can see. Snatch the shingle nail from my hand Grasshopper...
sometimes board sometimes knot
Looks like we have the classic US vs the world in our ways of thinking this one out.
First off.......I never said I was a master carp......just that my logic would say lotsa guys that shy away from the "title"......shouldn't......because as long as there isn't an official...in the US.....title giving authority........don't turn down a compliment from a customer based on sheer modesty.
Back to my point.....it seems the non-US guys ......probably because the term Master really designates something to an official body of some sort......want to go with the ...let's say....old world definition.
While...the US guys...seem to say....either it means nothing...because here....it really means nothing....or...it's open to interpretation.......
Looks like the US guys don't like to follow the old world rules.........
..then again......ain't that the exact reason we're US guys now?
...maybe a bit of rebellion......er lack of respect for the Queen and her rules?
Jeff
wasn't called a master anything today...they stopped short and settled for artist!
I love these people!
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
i am a master carpenter 48yrs old learned from old timers but just kept their good points women and becks
I wasnt gonna come in here Boss Miester cause I remember reading this thread many moons ago and it went on and on and on.....What makes an artist an artist? Doing art? What makes them a fine artist? Doing more art? What makes them a genious artist? They die? As for me I see myself as a "carpenter" and thats it! Don't need the "attachments". OK OK I'm a MASTER bator..ok? HAppy now farmer? LOL
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I have a question, from reading these post would a Master Carpenter be the same as a Lead Carpenter then ?
At Darkworks cut to size made to burn......Putty isnt a option
I don't seem to be on the same map as most people here, but I think in most cases you will find masters leading crews. I don't think you will find that most lead carpenters are masters.
Think about that.
I think there is a majarity opinion here....maybe not a total consensus, but a strong majority....that the term Master shouldn't be used in North America.
Some, because it's pretty evident to all of us, I think, that noone ever really 'masters' all aspects of the trade. I totally agree with that, and knw it to be true in my case.....even though as you all know I think that use of the term is wrong, for all the reasons I've stated before.
Some (maybe only me), think it shouldn't be used, because there is no context and no North American tradition....no objective criteria...here....for what constitutes a master, and no way to objectively measure if someone has met that criteria. I know in a North American context, I agree with the legalistic view, that a Master implies someone in business, possibly employing journeymen and apprentices.....I prefer the term 'contractor'.
Doesn't matter to me what the reason is for not using it, I'm happy as long as it doesn't get used (outside of TV posers and guys that need it printed on their business cards to impress. Until peer groups come together and decide what criteria could legitimately qualify someone as a Master (I expect to see that , in the architectural woodworking community in Canada and perhaps the States; I don't really expect to ever see it anywhere else). Personally, journeyman and contractor/businessman accurately describe me, and my credentials for both are in order, so that's what I'll go with.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
As I stated.....I'm a carpenter. A carpenter! A carpenter ( did I spell that right?) : )
aIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Hummmm? A MASTER carpenter? I guess he would be an expert (ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure).
I think it would be someone that can do it all and do it well and do it fast to make money for yourself or your boss.