I’m stuck trying to match the finish on my existing windows and need some advice. We are replacing our existing windows, but not the trim so we need to match the finish. The trim is a honey colored shellac.
I’ve tried a variety of garnet, blonde and amber combinations and haven’t found the right match yet. Maybe I’m going about this wrong – do I blend the shellacs and then apply, or apply each unblended color in turn? I can see this effort taking several days or weeks to find a match and possibly require me to get a variety of mail order shellacs.
It’s starting to seem like overkill.
Couldn’t find a dye that didn’t deteriorate in UV so a window seemed like a poor application for a dye.
Alternatively I could just use some blend of minwax stain where I have more flexibility and access to colors and then topcoat with poly. Seems like this would stand up better to any condensation issues.
Any advice on matching shellac, or shellac vs poly?
Thanks.
Replies
Each succeding coat of shellac darkens. I use orange (amber) shellac. Try a sample,every 20 minutes or so add another coat until you get the shade you want.I generally cut the shellac to a 1lb cut.Makes it easy to brush but takes more coats.
mike
Follow Mike's advice..
As for poly when it's time to refinish poly you have to use harsh chemicals to strip it or risk blurring the edges sanding.
With Shellac you simply wipe off the old finish with denatured alcohol and reapply.
This might not be the thread for it, but I wanted to let you know that I tried shellacing a parquet tabletop that my gf made (well, designed, and I made it). I wasn't hopeful, but I was extremely short on time, and I needed it to be usable for guests so I had to finish it the day they showed up. I applied it straight out of the can (Zinsser) and I've had no problems with it. There has been plenty of liquid spilled on it, including alcoholic ones, and hot things on it, and nary a spot to be seen. It really was a pleasure to work with, and I think I'm going to give it a shot on my floors if/when I ever get to installing them. I noticed that they've a renewable resource logo on their can now, so perhaps your recommendation of it will be even more common now that green is in...Z
Thanks for the update..
You will find it dry's faster thinned down than straight out of the can..
use denatured alcohol to thin it.. Not paint thinner or anything else..
first coat dries in 15 minutes and then a lite scuff sanding.. with 220,
followed by a second coat which dries in 1/2 hour (usually no sanding needed) and the third coat takes an hour to dry.
When I've used it straight out of the can I really had to wait a long time for it to dry..
The ease of refinishing and is one reason I was looking at shellac. The condensation issue is a bit of a problem. A window is the best application for shellac. Mostly, I find shellac very easy to apply - that's why I'd like to use it.In either case, I've tried applying many coats to get it to darken but it seems to be going to the wrong shade. I'm getting pumpkin and want honey or peanut butter - slight difference but it really shows up next to the old trim. Getting that difference in shade is difficult and more coats is not helping.Is staining the wood first and then clear shellacking it an option?
I waxed my window frames after applying the shellac. It was a bit of work, but I really dont like the look of poly and I am ok with having to do a bit of maintenance down the road.
Brad
I haven't done that,, may I steal that idea?
I have to fess up and admit I read it in a book. Have at er. I used miniwax wax first, but recently bought some Liberon. The liberon smells nice and comes in far more colors.
wax over shellac is an old technique.
the wax gives the shellac more resistance to water.
Since Frenchy hasn't answered yet, I would say that you can stain the wood first--you can also dye it (but I would try other things with the shellac first). You can also dye the shellac, I think, with an alcohol-based dye (or one that dissolves in alcohol). I still don't understand why mixing a little garnet-lac with amber shellac isn't getting the right color--maybe you need pure garnet-lac and no amber, or dilute the garnet with super blond, or even use only seed-lac which is browner yet than garnet.
In re-reading your post, you seem to be saying the shellac is too orange--in that case I would not use amber or orange shellac at all and try either garnet or seed. The good news is that if you don't like how shellac turns out, you can remove it with alcohol and try again. (However, once you stain or dye the underlyiing wood, you are "done"--hence, I would not do that.)
Thanks Danno. Yes the shellac I've mixed up is a bit too orange. Straight garnet is closest but a little to deep. I had read that alcohol dye's don't hold up to UV which is why I didn't try them.When you mix shellac to match an existing color do you:apply one pure color and then another pure color on top (what I did) ormix the two colors first and then apply (maybe what I should be doing?)I can look into these other kinds of shellac. Got a source you recommend? The most exotic I can find at Rockler is blonde or garnet.
I was going to mention Rockler--I think the last time I bought shellac flakes, I got them from Rockler. Maybe you could ask at the "Knots" forum here. If you can't find "seed-lac," which I am thinking is the color you need, there are the Trans-tints another poster mentioned.
The Trans-tints may be easier to get and eaier to control the tint, or, as someone else mentioned, use gel stain between coats. I am pretty sure you can get the Trans-tints from Rockler.
I don't see anything wrong with your approach of applying a coat of one tint, then the other on top; that way you approach the color more gradually, and maybe can wipe off top coat if it gets too dark.
I have a suggestion which is slightly out of the box. If you are having so much trouble matching the existing why not just strip it and then apply new shellac over everything?
Tint your shellac with some trans-tint liquid dyes from Homestead Finishing. You can mix/blend the available colors to get the color you need.
You might be best off to start with a clear/white shellac rather than tinting amber, garnet or similar. Don't know for sure cause I can't see what color you're aiming for.
Don't cut the end of the bottle nipple off, pierce it with a needle.
Experiment to find your target color by tinting a *measured* small amount of shellac (2 ounces or so) before you commit to a larger quantity. Count the drops of each color you add to that small amount of shellac so you can readily convert the recipe to the larger batch later.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/TransTint.htm
PS- Trans-tints are much more colorfast than aniline dyes. I use them for windows all the time and have as yet to have a fade problem. I cover the tinted shellac with a couple coats of UV waterborne varnish. That coupled with the UV blocking in modern window glass seems to do the trick quite nicely.
Edited 10/15/2008 9:11 pm ET by HootOwl
Also keep in mind that stains can be applied inbetween coats. The gels stains produce the most color, but they are sometimes too much of a good deal. Rather than a standard minwax stain, other brands of wiping stains have more color in them and work better for this purpose. One coat of stain A may be the equal of 10 coats of minwax.
A largish airbrush is a great way to evenly apply wiping stain.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
If you want a more durable finish, you have to turn to the nitrocellulose lacquers. I use the transtint dyes with them. If you are good with colors, you will be able to get a good match, and the finish will last longer. But the smell is bad. And I suck at colors.
You can use a stain underneath, but I find the finish looks different when you do that. The way the grain reacts to stain is different than it does with colored top coats.
A build up of orange shellac is the best bet to match, as that is what you probably have. It takes many coats, and it will probably darken over time. I can't get new orange shellac that comes close to matching the old finish, no matter what I do. Adding transtint dyes is one way to get closer, but it effects the drying time (seems to speed it up). It will not withstand the sun and condensation as well as lacquer.
I agree that if my windows had condensation on them I would never risk using shellac.. Too much maintinance even I think if they were waxed.. (haven't tried as yet)
However Modern windows don't seem to have any condensation on them.. My windows which were shellaced up to 3 years ago now show no signs at all..
I used to spray a lot of Lacquer's it was my favorite finish untill I discovered shellac..
The ease of removal of shellac is what finally sold me.. the fact that it's safer and easier to apply is a bonus.. And being green? that's just icing on the cake!