Next month I will start trimming a 15000 sq foot buliding we are in the midst of trying to complete. The owner of our compaby told me he saved us a bunch of money by specifying MDF base board. Usually we use poplar. How much extra labor is involved in moving, installing. paint prepping. etc this product? We usually install the base prior to hard wood. The final product are fairly high end. 600 or 700 $ /sq ft. for a two bed condo. Anyone have any thoughts? Advice? Thanks
Edited 6/12/2005 5:27 pm ET by quicksilver
Replies
The money you save using MDF you will spend replacing your saw blade. MDF will dull a good blade much quicker than poplar.
There are different manufacturers of MDF trim and I suspect its a regional thing since others have disagreed with the blade issue. Around here I have given up on it.
Other than that the end result is the same
How much extra labor is involved in moving, installing. paint prepping. etc this product?
Why would those costs be different for one product than another very similar one?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
We'll I know that the MDF is kind of floppy, and I presume this will make it a bit more difficult to stock, move from place to place and to the saw. I also wonder if any one had any negative experince with the nail gun, with I guess I would call it the opposiite of dimpling. Where the nail displaces the fiber an forces it outside the surface plane of the board. It is also much softer than the pine and poplar I am used to therefore I wondered about people's experience with it getting beat up on the job making the prep more expensive. I've done some built in cabinetry work with MDF before and it served me OK but I was wanting to explore a little more before I got myself into a nightmare. Sometimes the savings in material cost can be lost by trying to get it to behave in a manner maybe it wasn't meant to. I'm just looking for a little feedback thanks.
It is actually harder, but mor e brittle, so it chips instead of dinging or denting...the opposite of dimp[ling - we call volvanoes
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I second the pain to cope sentiment, I did one job with it and ended up cutting my copes "thick" and honing with a Dremel. Yuck, never again.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
My experience following a carpenter and an installer; is that the reverse dimpling happens with a larger gun nail and not alot of care in nailing process by the installer. However on the same job there was a carpenter installing some of the trim and the differance was significant. Small holes and little if any dimples. Makes a big differance to the bull the painter has to cover up and how much time they will have to spend doing it. Yea I know " who cares the painter will fix it".
Why more labor ?MDF wears out blades - reflect that in the labourt prices charged
MDF is far heavier and floppier, so what one man can carry in poplar takes two men with the MDF
MDF has blowouts, so mor efiller is needed - along with the sanding to fine in out.
MDF needs predrilling in some places and outside corners are hell to work right.
MDF makes some wicked dust, so you have to wear a dust mask, meaning the inconvenience willslow you dow. You also need to use dust collection equipment or spend a lot of time with the vacumn.Some guys like it better, for some strange reason.
I will use it for crown sometimes, but hate it for baseboard or anything where it can get knicked - like with a vacumn, dogs or shoes
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My experience is that MDF swells around round nails (angled finish nailers) creating what my painter calls volcanos.
These typically are unnoticable untill the final paint coat is complete. The sheen of the enamel can show every nail. To fix this we shave the volcano off before we let the painter start.
My experience is that if you use square headed finish nails( I.E. straight gun nails) this is minimized. I guess that the nail cuts through instead of punching through. I have also noticed less problems from a product called ultralight MDF.
My preference of course would be the poplar.Adam Greisz<!----><!---->
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The stuff is standard here. I dont care for it much, but I do have a preferance for solid wood.
I must admit however that once painted it cant be differentiated from wood. It is cheaper and is stable.
It must not be used in a wet area. For those I use pine.
As for the life of a blade........tungsten carbide. Can cut an awful lotta mdf before that needs attention.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
"It must not be used in a wet area."I did a crown with MDF once - owners choice against my recommendations ( mostly personal prejudice against the dust at that time) The bath upstairs flooded and a small nook corner below got the crown ruined - looking like the skin on your fingers after a looooongg soak in the bathtub. Since they had provided materials, I simply said that I would be glad to replace it at my hourly rate after they got the replacement materials.The cheap sobs would not buy a whole 16' piece for a corner that needed six feet and they wanted me to spend hours carving and sanding for free....still looks the same five years later...The whole point being - where is a dry area that is safe enough for MDF?
I would estimate that they had saved $320 to do the crown in MDF as oppposed to real wood. That is almost how much the labor and materials would have been to repait it that one time.
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I guess my agreement with you on all counts, and actually posting this question expecting more negative feedback than positive shows that I expect that this will be a problem but fact is I may not have a real say as to what the final product is, in the end ultimately it is not my decision. So I really need (and have received some sound advice here) to find out how to make this work. I am going to be expected to have my crew install over 4000' and my final product will be indiscernible from poplar. pine or any other material. It should not call any attention to itself other than maybe, Hey that's a nice clean job. Thank you all for your comments. And keep them coming please
I guess you wouldn't use it on a PT boat then.
too heavy
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I've used it in my basement and regret it. It does'nt hold up well to dings and scratches which inevitably occurs with all trim. Because it is flimsy it stays with the contour of the walls and ceiling which create visibly wavy lines. Wood trim is more ridged and gives the walls and ceiling the appearance of straightness (Slop-tical-illusion). Wood is the way to go. Also, why do you use poplar if its going to be painted? why not use the standard, primed, finger jointed pine?
-Terry
Yer complaining of the dings and scratches in MDF base and then questioning why poplar over pine?
Screw Pete!
Gabe for Governor!
If minimizing conformance to wavy walls is an issue poplar is the way to go. While pine is more rigid than MDF, poplar is more rigid than both and will yield a straighter line.
I can buy good poplar cheaper than pine with knots, definitely cheaper than PFJP
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In general, I recommend mdf. I work with it most everyday.
Pros: stable,machines easy, takes paint well, cheap, the face is plenty hard
Cons: because the face is plenty hard , fasteners can be difficult to use, but const. adhesive or glue works well.the edges absorb water like a sponge so seal 'em and avoid damp locations.
I know of an outfit that installs mdf base unless spec'd otherwise...
I've never noticed MDF dulling my chop saw blade any faster than poplar or pine, so I can't speak on that point.
But for me, it's a toss up. It's hard to say no when you could be saving a bunch of money on the cost of trim. I've gone with MDF in the past and had no major complaints about it.
The one thing that bugs me though: when you try to cope MDF the uppermost corner (the part that gives the impression of a 45 angle) on each cope breaks off soooo easily. That leaves me with a messier corner than I want.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"I've never noticed MDF dulling my chop saw blade any faster than poplar or pine, so I can't speak on that point."Haven't used much have you?
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The biggest single issue I have with MDF base is outside corners just don't hold up to any impact. Careless vacuming can leave a permenant impression along with big chips.
Right.
That's why solid blocking is used for outside corners.
We have never used solid blocking for corners, and suspect it would never fly with certian markets. Around here blocking corners is seen as a sign of seccond rate worksmanship.I personally don't use MDF if at all possible, poplar is my first choice, then solid pine, then FJ, maybe then MDF, nails poorly, tending to mushroom around nail heads, not very durable...
What do you mean by solid blocking on a outside corner?
Edited 6/10/2005 8:51 pm ET by doodabug
wood corners.
sorry to get back to you so late.
Been using MDF base for the past 4 years on the Townhomes, Works OK Holds paint GREAT!
Did you say you install prior to Hardwood flooring ? If so I would install the base after Hardwood, much cleaner look.
I can get the same look installing before or after. For us the benifits of installing before out weigh the benifits of installing the base after.
Edited 6/10/2005 8:09 pm ET by quicksilver
How would that be? Don't see any benefit of installing any floor coverings beside carpet after baseboard, especially if I am the one installing the floor!
Water, spills pvc primer, orange soda, pee, a missed window a clogged scupper, acclimation to controlled environment. I've been using this technique with success.
Bet your floor Guys Love It!
Here in the DC metro it is not uncommon so they really don't seem to care. They do their best. I take off the doors and protect the cabinets with card board, We patch their dings and final coat. Maybe I'm wrong but this hasn't been a problem so I really haven't fully thought through the alternative. I mentioned some of the reasons. And they are not just out of my head to bolster my argument I can't tell you how many wax paper cups of urine I find in these buildings. And nobody ever did it. The pvc primer happened on a ground face block wall. Had to replace two floors of hardwood because a big gulp cup clogged a scupper. My co worker left a door open and had to route out three big 30sq ft repair - burned up two Makita 2 1/4's in the process. But he's a very sick man, thar's another story. We've had major plank separation problems due to the difficulty in balance the units in spaces that have two mezzanine levels. in winter in the morning its an oven and then every one opens all the windows. Its a delicate balance but when its found its amazing, Anyhow you get my point: I have my reasons
Edited 6/10/2005 9:01 pm ET by quicksilver
I recently installed 328 l.f. of MDF base. I didn't find it any more difficult to install than any other. I cope with a coping saw and support the edge with my finger so I don't experience much edge breakage. Right or left cope doesn't make any difference to me. I used 15 ga. angle trim nailer to install. I don't do the painting so I can't comment on that part. You will need good support on both sides of saw because it is floppy. If you are sensitive to dust, wear a mask, it is dusty.
I am curious how the owner of your company saved you money by specifying MDF.
I am curious how you install your base before the hardwood. Do you hold it up off the floor? How do you allow for expansion? And what about base shoe?
He told me he saved a lot of money. The MDF simply is much cheaper the the poplar. He's saving money on material, the point of my post is will that money get sucked into trying to get a good finish out of the mdf. We do hold it up and use shoe. Do you mean expansion of the hardwood.? I'm not sure I follow you please elaborate because I may need to learn something here. The hardwood guy tucks under the base. Then we add shoe after the finish. We install plinthes after the hardwood.
That's what I thought, he saved alot of money, not us.
Yes, I mean expansion of the hard wood.
I guess I don't understand how it is possible to tuck hardwood under base.
How do they pry the last piece tight?
If it aint your money, Why do you care?
Edited 6/10/2005 9:36 pm ET by doodabug
Having previously replied to this thread I now hold my head low at the many responses of those who use mdf base.
MDF base is cheap and low quality, doesn't deserve a thread in "Fine Homebuilding".
This thread belongs in a "rehabing section 8 housing for profit" forum.
You all should be ashamed.
Some of us have to do this best we can with the product supplied to us.
There is a place called the real world and some of us have to live there.
First piece is face nailed. I've had hard wood expand across a floor so much that it pushed a newel out of plumb. I normally try to leave a quarter inch all around for hardwood expansion. This is a liittle difficult to implement but I am there when they install. My boss as far as you comment on him it sounded like you painted him in the wrong manner, We, there are four managers, a mason, a designer, a carpenter and an archetect are all always searching for better more efficient ways of doing the best job we can for the money. Today with all the new products you have tp be careful but you also have to move forward. Research and simple questions can go a long way. And willingness to always stand firm and call a spade a spade. I care because it is my job to care. I care because I am a tradesmen. I care because I want to make it easy for my guys to do a good job. If I didn't care I would become a troll and live under a bridge and moon construction workers as they drove by.
Six chiefs and two Indians. I understand why your owner is trying to skimp on material costs. The first piece of hardwood is easy, the last piece would be the hard one. If you are talking about 3/4 hardwood flooring, I don't think 1/4 for expansion is near enough. The last box of pre-finished Bruce that I installed called for 3/4 for expansion. "Why do you care" I do the best I can with what I am provided. If people after me dent and ding it is out of my control. I think hardwood floor deserves alot better than painted mdf baseboard. If you want to save money just paint the subfloor.
I would love to see what the hardwood looks like around all the door jambs, then a house full of 3/4 round, If that does not shout-out Quality, nothing does. @ $500-$600k per sq.ft I would expect better!
Got to be real ugly.
I already said I get the same look before or after. Ever hear of a jamb saw. If you have any doubts I posted pictures on this site under the photo section of a house I remodeled in the interem between these two projects they are under the heading 'Georgtown remodel' See if they're as good as you expect.
Working harder, not smarter. You are making it real hard for your fellow tradesmen. See who your friends are when times get tough.
A jamb saw is a remodel tool, not a new construction tool.
Edited 6/11/2005 8:59 am ET by doodabug
QS,
The Georgetown photos look real nice, just checked them out. Like others said work smarter. Here is a secret that every rookie does once....
1. Install Kitchen Cabinents.
2. Install Hardwood floors up to cabs (but not under)
3. Install Tile Top w/tile edge.
4. Order Dishwasher for said Kitchen.
5. Order Shoehorn for Dishwasher, cuz it aint going to fit now!
All the well run jobs I been on go something like this, finish all drywall work, install all hard surfaces, install all cabs, then the trimmers come in & do all trim.
Hav'nt used a stick of 3/4 round on base in any New construction in a long time & my trim guys only trim each unit once.
But if you can pull it off the way you do it, then a Tip of the Hat to You!
Thanks and thanks to all for some valuable input.
I'm not a professional, but I've installed 5.5" MDF pre-primed baseboard molding in my home. From what I'm reading here, I suspect there are differences in quality.
I purchased the molding from Lowe's. It was pre-primed on the face. I quickly hand-sanded to ensure smoothness and then painted it with semi-gloss Benjamin Moore white. I then cut and coped the molding outdoors. Yes, it's dusty, but whenever I have a lot of cutting to do, I always try to do it outside. I used my DW-708 on a Delta stand for outside miters and coped inside corners with either Bosch jigsaw or a Delta scrollsaw. I recently bought the Collins coping foot, so I'll try using that when I start the next room. I glued a piece of 180-grit emory paper to a 12" long piece of molding, and used that to clean up the copes. If the wall was excessively wavy, I corrected this with joint compound before the baseboard was installed (I told you, this is MY house, and I'm not doing this for $; I can take the time to make it right). I installed the molding with a 15 gauge Senco pneumatic nailer, and had no problems with mushrooming. For runs longer than 12', I used biscuits on a butt joint. After sanding, re-priming and painting, these joints are indiscernible. I've done four rooms so far, and have not noticed the blades on any of the saws dulling more quickly than usual. I also had no problems with the copes chipping. In fact, after everything was installed, I had to slightly round off the corners of the outside miters with a piece of sandpaper because the corner edges were so sharp. I finished the job with a small bead of painter’s caulk wiped into all joints and between the wall and the baseboard. Concerning durability, I have two boys, 8 and 11, who aren't, shall we say, well-trained at times. The MDF is holding up far better than the cheap 2.5" finger-jointed pine installed by the builder.
I wouldn’t install MDF in a bathroom or kitchen, or anywhere moisture would be a problem, but for bedrooms, living rooms, dining rooms, etc., I’m very happy with the results.
Hope this helps.
We all are part of a final product and if you don't care you won't be around or at least will have few repeat clients. We are developer and in our case we are both GC, construction company and client. Do you realize what it takes to finance, design, build, market and sell a 15000 sq ft building with 8 luxury condos. When you constantly think management is full of crap for trying to be progressive you are doing yourself and them a diservice. Maybe money saved here will be spent on another cool detail that wasn't in the original budget. It's economic X amount of dollars spent the best way we can to yeild a quality product and turn a profit. And as far as just installing dealing with what's handed to me I'm in a position where I have input, so if I can avoid a bunch of crappy days for my guys I'm going to try. I just read your reply where you see that a jamb saw is a remodel tool. You got some secret book. A tool's a tool. And believe me I know how to work smart. That is why I posed the question in the first place. I'll bet you know everything
Edited 6/11/2005 12:48 pm ET by quicksilver
I have to tell you that we are recognized for a lot of quality trimwork and more and more I'm swearing by MDF crown, base and full panels. Bottom-line is it just excels in so many ways over wood (as long as its being painted). If I have one piece of advice its to use BRAD nails (2" - 2 1/2") shot on an angle over finish nails as the larger head of the finish nails tend to chip-out the surface paint of the MDF thus creating a much larger nail hole to fill. I've never had any trouble with blade wear-out and have installed 1000's of feet of the stuff. It does create a lot of fine dust though, you may want to connect a dust collection set-up to your saw.
I once swore that I would never use MDF trim but I do use it occasionally and I think it has its place. Still I think its "Hollywood" stuff and doesnt hold up well in the long haul. I would never use it in an area that gets a lot of use and abuse, like a kitchen or bath. I installed some kitchen cabinets with MDF doors about five years ago and they have held up well due mainly to the high quality acrylic finish on them. On a recent remodel we used mdf base in a couple of bedrooms. The carpet installers beat the crap out of it with their stretcher and then made some unsightly repairs.
Wood floors and wood trim have a quality that remains even after lots of wear and tear. Mdf trim when its beat up a bit just looks awful. I'll never use it on my house.
Tom
Thanks I emailed the owner the url of this thread. We'll see if the nail bangers have any impact. I'll let you know.
Edited 6/12/2005 12:58 pm ET by quicksilver
quicksilver,
MDF is in my opinion an overused name. Around my area there are plenty of fiber based materiels that are not what I would call MDF.
One of those is pretty popular. It's a fiber base with a thermally applied paper type face. It is not at all hard on blades, cuts and copes very clean, and doesn't get those little volcano's when you nail it with a gun.
the biggest down side is that it is very "Springy" and a 16' piece can be a pain in the A$$ to carry or move around.
Why not just get a piece from the supplier and play around with it? Make up your own mind about it.
Now why didn't I think of that? Thanks. The obvious is sometimes elusive and it takes a man of value to point it out.