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Thanks to everyone on helping me earlier. I got home and made some measurements and did not know if it would make a difference, so here it goes. The total length of the house is 59 feet the rotted beam is 6×8 and is in several different sections. It rest on brick columns that are between 7 & 8 feet apart. There is a 2×4 (actual measurements) nailed to
this that is also sitting on the columns, the floor joist are 6×8 and are notched out on the ends and are resting on the 2×4. The floor joist are between 20 and 24 inches apart. The wall studs are nailed to the rotted beam. Would it work to put extra supports under the 2×4 cutting the wall
studs (so as they are not nailed to the beam. then tearing out the beam in sections and replacing it.
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Hi Brian,
I've read your other post and the subsequent replies but I'm still confused about your beam.
I assume that your talking about a beam located in the center of your home and not one on the outside wall. I also assume that the studs that you are refering to as being nailed to the beam are of a wall or carrying partition in the middle of the house.
A previous poster had suggested that you install a beam on one side of the rotted beam and either leave is as such or once suppported, remove the rotted beam and replace with a new one.
Is the two by four, one piece of wood on one side of the beam or one on each side of the beam or on the bottom which confuses the part about the other joists resting on it if it's only 4 inches wide and the beam is 6 inches wide?
I know that this is a lot of questions but its hard to have a proper picture of your concern to give a good answer.
Gabe
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Gabe,
The beam I am refering to is the outside wall beam. It is holding up every outsde wall in every room going down the right side of the house. A 2x4 is nailed on the side of it in which every floor joist (sretching the entire width of 40 feet) are attached to. So
the 2x4 is attached to the bottom portion of the beam and the incoming
floor joist has a two inch notch which sets on the 2 inch wide 2x4.
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All,
Here is a drawing of what I think Brian is talking about (substitute beam for the built-up girder in the drawing).
It really doesn't matter if this girder is perimeter or central, the problem remains the same - it is rotten to the core and must be replaced. (I think he meant perimeter).
The method has already been covered in a previous post. Support and raise all the joists common to each section of the beam (probably between piers)and cut out, wholesale, the rotten section. Use that sawzall to cut whatever nails are still holding the studs to the beam, nothing should fall, and then, section by section, replace the beam and the ledger.
If span is still doubtful for the size of the beam (consult your local PE) consider using an engineered beam in replacement.
Although he doesn't say, it's possible the ends of the studs have some rot. If so, and if you can, cut them back in increments of 1 1/2 inches and add a separate bottom plate before sliding in the new beam.
*Brian - It sounds to me like the floor joists are ledgered to the beam and the studs use the beam as a plate as well. There may be no real connection between wall studs and floor joistsi exceptfor the beam. While the loads involved are light (single story, 8' span) you probably need to shore the walls as well as the floors. Getting PE advice, given this fairly unusual system, is a good idea. Is this beam exposed? Are aesthetics an issue if exposed, i.e. does it have to be sawn timber to replace and match other wood?You are getting a lot of questions due to the unusual nature of this condition.Jeff
*Replaced rotted sill beams on an old barn a few years back...same setup as Brian's regarding the joists and studs.Attached a ledger to the outside of the exterior wall, lagged the ledger into the studs. Used the ledger to jack/support the exterior wall.Ran a second beam under the joists and jacked that. With one set of jacks supporting the floor joists and another set supporting the wall, the rotted beam was R&R'd. Didn't have to mess with cutting the studs back as Ralph metioned, as they were fine.I'd recommend you hire both the design and actual work out. If you do it yourself and do it right, you save a few bucks. If you mess it up, your house may fall down...on top of you.
*Ditto Mongo's post above, and nicely put. I wouldn't try to actually lift this condition much, though, just shore it.
*Hi guys,I was confused by the intermitent columns made out of brick every 8 feet part.Normally, the outside perimeter would have a constant foundation.I agree with Mongo and others on this one.This is becoming a fairly common situation and I for one would like Brian to post a couple of pictures of this situation for general discussion/comments.Gabe
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Here is a picture of the beam sitting on the brick columns.More pictures to follow.
*Here is a picture of the floor joist sitting on the 2x4 that is nailed to the rotted beam.
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Holy smokes,
Everything below the window would have to be repaired.
1. Install a temp. beam under the floor joists.
2. Strip the siding off the front until you hit good material.
3. Install a 2X10 on the face of the studs along the whole side.
4. install legs or jacks under this plate for support.
5. Remove the rotten beam, bottom plate bottom and cut back any rotten studs.
6. Install a new beam, bottom plate and new legs on the studs.
Serious work that would need a professional touch.
Gabe
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Gabe,
The wall studs seem to be fine. The 2x4 that is nailed to the beam seems to be fine as do all the floor joist(which is what confuses me)With the exception of the facial boards(which are not rotted
but are old and this side of the house was not painted as often as the rest) do you think that I will still need to do all you recommend?
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Yow Brian. Quite an undertaking. In addition to what has been suggested...in the second pic., are those joists notched as deep as they look? I would recommend you think of including losing the 2x4 ledger and fill the notch with a solid block and hanging it with joist hangers from the new beam. If you could figure a way to cut back to the notch and use a joist hanger, all more the better. All the load on the floor is only being held by half the width of the joist. Course, its lasted a thousand yrs. or however old the structure is and maybe I'm too cautious. Also, you're planning on making sure those piers are sound also, right? Man, best of luck to you.
*Hi Brian,I suspect that you will find damage to the bottom of the studs and damage to the bottom plate. Hard to imagine that level of rot/termite damage not extending to some of the other components.The piers that the house is resting on don't appear to be original. Was this house moved to this location or raised at some point?I do know, that you should ensure that the job is only done once. It's not going to be cheap so make sure you get all the damage in one assault.Gabe
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Pre-1950 or so, all joists were notched over ledgers as indicated. Per standard practice.
Obie
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Brian, has the ledger been replaced by a previous owner? Is the 1" drop in the floor equal along the length of the house? Do you attribute the drop to the piers settling or the beam compressing as it rots? This type of construction looks like a standard Tidewater Virginia foundation. Where are you? Joe H
*If I could only find my "Complete FineHomeBuilding on CD" I'd look up the article about 5 or 7 or 9??? years back that was a very complete explanation of how to do this exact job. Lot of pictures of how to brace and jack the existing structure .....ring any bells for anybody else? Getting a bit senile, Joe H
*No kidding Obie. Lead a sheltered life here in Ohio and have not seen the notched joists to be common practice. Do you not think a cut that deep compromises the strength of the joist? Been by that bar with all the weird creatures lately? Nice place.
*Back when men were men and carps worked dawn to dusk for 18 cents an hour this was one of the ways joists were supported at the girders.The drawing I posted earlier was from the 1923 edition of Audel's.This house, a little bigger than Brian's (see attachment) was built in 1913 and had both brick piers and brick foundation walls. And, other off grade houses in our area, including shotgun, and assorted hovels, were originally built on brick piers, exactly as Brian's.
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I live in Georgia, about 90 miles northeast of Atlanta. The one inch drop streches about 1/2 the length of the house.
*I thought that a joist could be notched for a ledger no more than 1/3 its depth. Any more than this risks splitting the joist.
*Brian - You i surethis house was built in 1914? The siding looks much older. I have seen more than a few 225-year old houses in better shape. This leading not to criticism (no offense intended) but your questioning of replacing any of the siding would suggest some denial that this entire facade has to be resided, which it does. No way you can repair/repaint (or paint for the first time) what I see in the photo. You will find other issues when you open up the wall further.PS - Keep in mind that GA is prime formosan termite territory and this kind of exterior detail is highly prone to attack. Consider a continous foundation wall? Crawl space slab? You should IMO.Most of the beam replacement advice here is good, but as a job it's a stinker. Not for DIY as indicated.Obie
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The narrow clap siding looks much like stuff I've seen and worked on in 1920 vintage houses in Toronto.. . granted a different country and many miles between.
The one inch drop doesn't seem unreasonable given the condition of the beam and particularly the piers in the photo, which need repointing at least. I've seen this construction style often on porches from this era. Moisture turns the brick mortar to sand.
Regardless of current wisdom, if the existing notched joists haven't split, or haven't split badly enough to compromise their structural integrity(actual size and species of lumber is a factor)leave 'em be, and refit to the new beam the same way. Why argue with
i tried and true?
You should certainly strip some more siding to see what's what, but when it's time for replacement, if it was mine, and if this was a wall that will be seen from the street or wherever, I would strip enough siding from an obscured area, perhaps the back, or a side, to repair what needs repairing, and patch that spot with something newer.
What a great project. Want some help in Dec/Jan?? Never been to joja.
-pm
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Obie,
The house was built in 1914. The wood is not rotten on the side of the house.The interior wall has been torn out all wood inside the wall is good.Will send picture of freshly painted wall monday.
*Mr Sacred Cow Tipper, Come on. What you charge? Got a house built in 1914 you can stay in.
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Thanks to everyone on helping me earlier. I got home and made some measurements and did not know if it would make a difference, so here it goes. The total length of the house is 59 feet the rotted beam is 6x8 and is in several different sections. It rest on brick columns that are between 7 & 8 feet apart. There is a 2x4 (actual measurements) nailed to
this that is also sitting on the columns, the floor joist are 6x8 and are notched out on the ends and are resting on the 2x4. The floor joist are between 20 and 24 inches apart. The wall studs are nailed to the rotted beam. Would it work to put extra supports under the 2x4 cutting the wall
studs (so as they are not nailed to the beam. then tearing out the beam in sections and replacing it.