My next-door-neighbor has just installed the most obnoxious streetlight in his back yard. My wife can read by the light of this thing on our deck at 11:00 at night. Our local township has very specific rules about light pollution, but these are somewhat subjective.
However, the height restriction, 20ft. to the center of the fixture from the ground, is not. Had my neighbor applied for and been granted an electrical permit, I could get a copy. The specifications of the proposed lamp are required on the permit. He did not. Fortunately, the local electrical inspector is aware of this and assures me he will take appropriate action.
I have voluntarily agreed to not trespass on my neighbors property, I will be in contempt of court if I scamper over with a tape measure on a stick, so that’s out.
I have access on my side, the lake side (as long as my shoes are wet) and the neighbor on his other side and I get along great.
How can I accurately measure the distance from the ground below this post to the center of the fixture without setting foot on his property? Laser level? I never agreed to not shine a light back.
If it’s over twenty feet, slam dunk, that monstrosity is coming down.
Please help, we’ve got to get some sleep,
Kowboy
P.S.
http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/Trebruchet/?action=view¤t=DSC00205.jpg
The temporary light post to the left is every bit of 10′ high in my guestimation. The switch box on it is at about four feet. This pic was taken at about 6:00 a.m., before the photocell kicked ‘er off for the day.
Edited 11/6/2007 9:06 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 11/6/2007 9:08 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 11/6/2007 9:10 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 11/6/2007 9:15 pm ET by Kowboy
Replies
Happy Birth Day + 3.
how 'bout making your own pole 20 feet tall. Standing it up an equal distance from your wet foot vantage point to the offensive lamp. Use it as as a point of reference or scale.
Short of a transit and a laser distance measurer and a lot of math I forgot I don't know an accurate way.
Other than letting the electrical inspector do his thing. Or the township council or home owners association.
Actually, I may have my own pole in the form of my 40' oak tree which is leafless and adjacent to the light.
Sure, I could put a lazer level in my tree and shoot 'er over, but that doesn't tell me the difference in grade between his lawn and mine. He's lower, by eye from our canoe.
Kowboy
You could maybe use a Biltmore stick.
http://forestry.about.com/b/a/081153.htm
http://www.tree-tech.com/reports/biltmore_stick.xhtml
Mitch
What's this yoyo's motivation for the light anyway? Sounds like it would ruin his night time view of the lake too.
Tool:
I call this the "streetspite" not the streetlight. It's all about pissing me off and costing me time and money.
This guy put a video camera in a birdhouse to videotape my alleged "trespassing". When I told my wife I thought the new birdhouse on a pole was a videocamera, she said I was being paranoid. When fighting the second trespass citation, during discovery procedings, the camera was confirmed in his police report. She knows he's nuts now.
Kowboy
I think it might be time for the opossum treatment.
TFB (Bill)
Well. Did he catch you trespassing with his birdhouse camera? You sound as weird as he may be.
>> I have voluntarily agreed to not trespass on my neighbors property, I will be in contempt of court if I scamper over with a tape measure on a stick, so that's out. <<
I take it you are not best friends with these people? :-) Didn't I see you on the Judge Judy TV show? Tell us a good story :-)
In the mean time, maybe this will help: http://extension.usu.edu/forestry/Kids/Kids_TreeHeightMeasure.htm
Matt:
Thanks for the link but as I explained, the problem comes with number four:
4. The distance from your eye to the base of the tree is equal to the height of the tree. Measure this distance with a measuring tape. If no long-distance measuring device is available, calibrate your step (the walking distance between your two feet--walk normal, don't stretch) or pace (walking distance for two steps) over a known distance (say 50 feet). Then measure the distance A-D in paces or steps and convert to feet, meters, etc
I guess I could tie a string to a rock and throw it to the base of the light, mark the string, retrieve it and measure it.
Thanks,
Kowboy
P.S.I made the mistake of firing this guy's son from mowing our lawn five years ago. I did it by letter so there would be no misunderstandings.
Personal Protection Order against me...............................Dismissed
First trespass charge against me.......................................Dismissed
Second tresspass charge against me................................Dismissed
Building inspection violation (my leaves on his lawn).........Dismissed
Contempt of Court (saying hello and calling their dog)......Dismissed
I'm 5 and 0 with this guy, I guess he wants to try for six.
Edited 11/6/2007 9:32 pm ET by Kowboy
use one of them lazer measuring thingys.
View Image"No doubt exists that all women are crazy; it's only a question of degree." - W.C. Fields
A simple matter of triangulation.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
He could fix it by a simple matter of...............
STRANGULATION"No doubt exists that all women are crazy; it's only a question of degree." - W.C. Fields
Dan:
Would you be so kind as to expound on "triangulation" please?
Kowboy
There are a dozen different ways, several of which have been alluded to. Mostly you have to construct at least two triangles and know two of the angles of each. (You know one is 90 degrees and you measure the other.) Plus you need to know something about the relationship between the two triangles, easiest being to make them in the same plane and measure the distance between the "friendly" corner.The precise procedure is kinda something you'd have to work out on the ground. The easiest way to do the "computations" is to draw it to scale.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
This is the basic idea. If you know distance X and the two right-hand angles then you can draw to scale and the intersection of the two slopes is the height of the pole.
View Image
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Dan:
Thank You!
I'll show that to my wife if the morning. She passed the Certified Saftey Professional examination and it had a hell of a lot more difficult math on it than that.
Isn't your example assuming our lawns are level? Does it matter?
Thanks again,
Kowboy
P.S:
I tried your scaling idea with a printed copy of the pic I posted. If the switch box on the temporary pole is mounted at 48", the center of the fixture is at twenty-two feet above grade. If it's at three feet, the center is at 17.
Edited 11/6/2007 10:03 pm ET by Kowboy
Edited 11/6/2007 10:18 pm ET by Kowboy
The techniqure assumes that your lawn is level with or higher than the base of the pole (if higher you "lose" height on the pole) and the two points where you measure are level with each other (this is more critical).
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
And with a little extra trig you can eliminate the problem with not being level with the base: When you calculate the height with the above method you also get the distance from your observation points on the same scale drawing. Do another transit shot from one of the points to the base (whether it's up or down doesn't matter -- you just need to know whether to add or subtract) and then take the sine of that angle times the length from the observation point.You don't even need a trig table, since for small angles the sine == pi/180 times your angle.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
This was one factor in some boy scout merit badge, seems to me....
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
Yeah, I even remember the drawing of the boy with the homemade transit in the field guide or whatever.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
>> I made the mistake of firing this guy's son from mowing our lawn five years ago. I did it by letter so there would be no misunderstandings. <<
Hehehehe :-) I seem to remember something about that. I guess the guy wouldn't want his punk son to grow up via a little use of reality... :-) I don't know why you would do it by letter though... In the few instances I've had to do something similar, I relished using some of the clichés like: "I can't use you any more...." and "Too busy to work on my job? Let me free your schedule up some." and the old stand-by ever popularized by Donald Trump: YFF!!! :-)
A simple matter of triangulation.
If the authorities have been notified, as your post suggests, why do YOU need to measure anything?
Stay out of it, and let those whose job it is, take care of it.
Might there be more of a reason than you firing his son for his attempted actions against you?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"Might there be more of a reason than you firing his son for his attempted actions against you?"
JD:
That's a fair question and I'm glad you asked it. I pi$$ people off on occasion, I think I've done it a time or two on this board. I'll probably do it again. But each time, I knew why. I don't know any other reason in this case.
Before we moved to Michigan, we shared two WALLS with neighbors on each side in our condo for ten years. We had minor differences at the condo meetings, but if I walked into a bar tomorrow, every resident would buy us a drink. Gauranteed.
We would still be friends with the neighbors before the condo, but they died of old age. We still see younger friends from across the street though.
Clearly, I have a proven track record of getting along with my next-door neighbors, with one exception.
I will let the authorities handle this, but I want to make sure they don't let him "slide" on the twenty-foot rule.
Kowboy
My suggestion would be to let them deal with it and stay clear of the whole situation.
No reason to give this neighbor any amunition against you....whether legit, or otherwise.
If the authorities are unable to get this straightened out properly, then and only then should you become involved.
If this guy has a hard on for you, he might start finding absolutely legal ways of making your life hell if he finds out you are behind this. Including re-erecting that lamp at below the 20' height. From the looks of it, even if he does drop it down, it's going to be an eyesore.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
J.D.
Your advice is excellent and I needed to hear it and heed it.
Thanks,
Kowboy
SOHCAHTOA might be an answer to the measuring problem.
If you can measure the distance from where you are standing to the pole (there are optical rangefinders that can do this) and then measure the angle from where you are standing to the light (You will need a pretty accurate clinometer to do this; I know little about surveying tools, but there should be something accurate out there. A weighted string hanging from a protractor is something I used in high school math class to determine the height of buildings), then with that information and a trig table you set up an equation.
SOH sine = opposite over hypotenuse
CAH cosine = adjacent over hypotenuse
TOA tangent = opposite over adjacent
Write back if you want to go this route and need more details.
Me personally, I would probably just forgo the surveying tools and get a BB gun.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx
Buy a shade for your window.
That light is only 18'9" from the ground. I snuck over there and measured it last night for you.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I would pay the local kids a few bucks to let's say (amuse themselves) and play. i bet i can hit that light with a rock from here!!!LOL!!
Got a friend who'll do you a favor?
While you're out eating dinner in a crowded restaurant?
He goes and measures it for you.
Not that I've ever done something like that...buic
I vaguely remember something about how to measure the height of a tree from an unknown distance.
I don't remember if it involved a transit. I don't remember because I've never had to do it. I think the example showed how to measure a tree across a body of water.
I'm not helping much except to say it can be done.
How about this: Set up two sticks so that you sight from the tip of the tree through them. Mark each stick at the top sight line and the level sight line. Measure the distance between the sticks and measure the heigth difference. Those two numbers will give you the slope.
Using a ratio and proportion, you should be able to calculate the top of the pole.
Trig would do this much easier, I think. I don't do trig.
FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
my neighbor put up the same light as that, i thought about it and told him it was to bright at night , He said why i will turn it off if it bothers you What a wonderfull man i said no leave it up after all its free light for me, But being on a lake seems like the light would destroy the night view, I have a rotten neighbor on the other side reverse thinking works best with him , If i told him i love the light thanks a lot he would turn it off in a second, If he knew i hated it he would do anything to leave it up, this may be hard to believe but when i turned my outside lights on to see he turned his on, If i played my radio outside he ran out and turned his on, I thought i must be loseing my mind but his EX wife told me he really was doing that.
OH, that light doesn't look so bad to me. Get some dark blinds for gosh sakes.
I think you should be able to get specs on the pole somewhere for the height of the bulb. Looks rather unique, should be fairly easy to identify.
Thanks to everyone.
Kowboy
Does the thing have a photocell control? A trick used by astronomers is to shine a laser pointer at the photocell.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Instead of measuring that light can you measure another light of the same model. He had to buy the light somewhere. Can you figure out where? In my area there are maybe 5 places one could buy a light pole like that. You might take a picture of it around to electrical supply houses and say that you are looking to buy a similar light pole and ask if they recognize it. If they do then bingo you might be able to get specs on it including height.
Do any of your rental houses carry laser transits. Rent one and measure to the light, measure to the base, measure the angle and you can get the height.
Are you under the same covenants and restrictions as he is? If you are you can sue for remedy as an affected party. Then it is a simple matter of the court ordering a measurement and if it is too tall then he has to take it down. Yes it will be a bit of cost on your part and I would put money on him putting the light back up right at 20 ft.
Good luck
Day
Can you determine with any accuracy how far you are from the base of the pole? Then I could 'splain you how to find the height using trigonometry and a few simple things like a soda straw and protractor and piece of string. Seriously. It's the old "measure the flagpole" trick. But it requires that you know how far you are from the base of the pole. Then you find the angle of inclination using the protractor and calculate the length of line from you to the light. Levelness or lack threreof can be accounted for.Or just get you a Mimzy. Then your place, his place, and the whole neighborhood will be dark.
I'm not a golfer, but I THINK one of those range finders may be helpful to you.
Short of that, is it possible to negotiate with this guy some sort of reasonable hours of illumination? If he is in fact compliant, then the approach would have to be "neighborly". If he's not in compliance, then he's going to be madder than a hornet about being told he has to lower it, and he won't be a very nice person.
I've never understood why people build out on the lake or in the country and then blot out the night sky with big lights like that.
Good luck.
What if.....say you had one of those arrows with a suction cup at the end, like a kid's toy. Say you rigged it with a 20' string and something with some weight at the end....maybe borrow a compound bow. If you could hit the middle of the glass, and the string is swinging in the air...there's your answer.
Not sure how this would play out with trespassing and harrasment and other stuff.
Plan B migh be to google it. Can find anything on google.
I would point out that that this is something any decent surveyor could do in his sleep. If you know a surveyor who owes you a favor, that would be the way to go, since his stamp on the height figure will carry weight.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
"I would point out that that this is something any decent surveyor could do in his sleep. If you know a surveyor who owes you a favor, that would be the way to go, since his stamp on the height figure will carry weight. "
Dan, you nailed it. So what if I measure? Who the hell am I? But a surveyor with a stamp is going to be damned hard for Mr. Building Official to ignore. I'm making sure inspection doesn't let him slide on his light like they did on the height of his fence.
Thanks again,
Kowboy
If you know a surveyor who owes you a favor....
Yeah. I mean who doesn't have a surveyor in his back pocket in this day and age?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
If you want legal then let the authorities work on it.
If you want it out regardless, 22. rifle with short round in it. Three AM with careful shots at just the light, be careful not to hit the holder portion. One or two shots till the light and lens are completely broken, they won't be able to track the direction of the bullet cause all that remains is pieces of broken glass.
The above is strictly untried and based on theory only. I could be wrong, in which case I know nothing about any light next to the lake adjacent to your lot.
Here's a way to accomplish the task. It's not completely accurate but close enough.
You need a transit and a way to measure a distance between two points. The further they are apart, the better the accuracy. Call them points X1 and X2. The distance between is "a." From each of these points measure the horizontal angle between the other point and the lamp.
From point X1, measure the vertical angle from horizontal to the lamp and from horizontal to the base of the pole.
Use my drawing and formulas.
Thank an engineer today.
That's a variation of what I suggested, only I put X and Y in the same vertical plane, so that height could be determined without resort to trig tables.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Trig tables?????? A $5 calculator will do this. The function is probably on his computer somewhere. The most difficult thing will be getting hands on a reliable transit. I had a good time trigering this problem out.
I have one calculator with trig functions -- it's in the kitchen junk drawer. If I can do the work with a scale drawing I prefer that method, since it's a lot easier to sanity-check.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
If he had a subdivision plat showing the lot measurements across adjacent tracts, he could use one line for the base (just outside the division line) and use the triangulation method with a standard theo or builders transit.
The longer the baseline the more accurate the measurement.
There are now theos that have a "no-prism" capability that he could rent.
However, in this case because of the legal issues, it had better be dead on.
If you have a laser level and a 40' tree reference pt. just level base of light pole to tree, then level light to tree, measure the difference.
Do you want it gone or is this a hobby?
I have read all the posts here, some of which I agree with and some that I feel are just an excersize to find out how high the light is.
If I were you, and I wanted the thing gone - it would be gone.
If I were you, and I just wanted to screw with the process, then I would figure the way to know how high it really is.
And, if I didn't give a damn about the light, but wanted to make sure that I didn't have to deal with it, I would come up with a different solution.
Ask yourself the real question and let us know.
You are asking somethihg that is not defined.
I'm dying to help, but I don't know what to help with until you give me a goal, or end solution.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
All I want is compliance with the law, not some Building Official's interpretation of the law. Nothing more and nothing less.
If his light is legal, then I have to lobby my government to change the law. If it isn't he has that problem.
Kowboy
"All I want is compliance with the law, "So it really doesn't matter to you if the light is coming in your bedroom window or not then. I thought that what you wanted was the light gone or turned off
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The law doesn't allow "trespass light" or "light pollution". The law requires a shroud around the fixture covering the horizontal plane of light.
If he meets this standard, we'll have no light in our yard or bedroom.
Kowboy
Well there ya go! No need to worry about the height then, just have the local authority make him put the shroud on it. The math is interesting though, don'tcha think?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just had another thought. If the light is say 1 foot higher than allowed all he would need to do is pile a bunch of soil (about 13" worth) under the light to bring it in to compliance. The base would eventually rust out but...Hope he's not reading this.TFB (Bill)
The ordinances here are written in such a way as to prevent that kind of shenanighans
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Always wondered how one would spell "shenanighans". :)
TFB (Bill)
You sure you know now?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
With Paul's spelling? no I'm not sure. :)
TFB (Bill)
shenanigans!There ya go - ran it through the spell checker.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
LOLTFB (Bill)
You can estimate or laser the distance to the pole.
Once you know that, stand the same distance away from an object you know to be 20' tall. Hold a ruler at arms length in front of you to get a scale.
OR:
Send DW around to front door collecting for charity, selling Avon, light pollution petition, etc. While they are busy at the front door, you are busy out back measuring the pole.
Gord
Send DW around to front door collecting for charity, selling Avon, light pollution petition, etc. While they are busy at the front door, you are busy out back measuring the pole.
Send her around nekid and he can cut the pole down himself!
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I've had problems with neighbors before. This new house I'm being more carefull. Some people are just idiots. In one house I couldn't wait to move they were just awfull.
On a sunny day stick a stick vertical in a sunny spot.
When the shadow is the same length as the stick, know that the shadow of his lamp post is the same as it's height. Now play catch with someone and retreive the ball etc. You can figure out a way I'm sure. Mesic
Just opened the pic. Looks like a commercial metal pole. You should be able to find the manufacuturer and get the length. Then the mounting should be easy to calc from the top. The depth in the ground is another issue.
Easiest way: Rent a 25' rod from a local survey supply company, and bribe your friendly neighbor into going over there and extending the rod to the fixture, and you take a photo.
Except that I'd guess that most mfgrs make poles in multiple lengths, just so they can satisfy various codes.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Rent a Skytrak and have your wife boom you out to the pole, then measure it.
You don't set foot on his property but get the right info. No trig or triangles needed.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
"Rent a Skytrak and have your wife boom you out to the pole, then measure it."
LMAO
Kowboy