Holmes on Homes was tackling mold remediation. Some moisture had penetrated several old wood windows and there was mold in the wall. Not much mold – even the expert couldn’t seem to get too worked up. But it soon developed into a full clean up with masks, hepa filters and god knows what.
Because the brick wall with the windows had been sheathed in exterior drywall, rather than osb or plywood, they said it couldn’t be cleaned. Instead they removed it from the inside, and with out replacing it, filled the stud spaces right up to the brick veneer with spray foam.
I know that closed cell foam should be water tight, but there is something that makes me uncomfortable about this. What do you think?
Replies
I think that by not maintaining the drainage pane with one of many materials available, he compromised things and contributed to faster mold growth in th e future.
Furthermore, by setting an example of a wrong way to do things, he created a lot of work for future generations of repair and remodeling people with all those who will emulate his idea.
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I saw that episode and there was indeed an attempt (at least verbal) to maintain the drain plain with some plastic and flashing to holes drilled though the mortar, but the show is not about details like that so that part was left on the editing room floor, if it ever was videoed in the 1st place (or that it occurred).
and the expert thought the risk of exposure to bleach to kill the bacteria/mold was just as dangerous as leaving the mold; the temp exposure of the fumes that could've been mitigated by a fan was too much for him. Or was it that it wouldn't create work for the local remediation company?
I love how anal they are with vapor barriers and those screws, what a waste
Yea....I'm always amazed at how many screws they use. It seems like they would frame an entire house with screws.
And they do go wild with the vapor barrier tape.
I'd love to ask them why it's all screws all the time.
wonder if it's some canadian tv filming safety law or something.
doing remodeling ... I can see.
I use alot of screws when remodeling ... but I also have the compressor and nail guns out too ... so I'm no where close to the amount they use.
But I've seen shows where it's mostly new const ... or a big addition ...
or the one where they did a pop-top.
all new framing ... and still driving the stupid screws.
even saw one where they screwed down roof sheathing.
the show that got me to wondering if there were restrictions ... was a recent one.
Mike goes outta town and the crew decides to suprise him and make progress.
They not only got the deck built ... but they got the roof framed.
Very proud of themselves, they were.
camera shows him walking up ... giving it the old skunk eye.
I thot he was just being himself.
but he got up there ... asks to see the prints ...
then points out the ridge is a coupla feet too low and the rafters are no where near the right pitch!
his "lead man" looked crushed.
But ... how can yer lead man not know how to cut a freaking common rafter!
might be why they stick to screws?
then again ... maybe TV makes ya stupid.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The lead man has his own co now!
I couldn't understand how he couldn't cut rafters, but I admit I have a hard time with stairs and have probably laid out 200 or so.
I think it is a mind block or stupidity or mind block, yes that must be it!
It is a mind block of sort. For whatever reason, you are not thinking about them in a way that makes sense to you. I had trouble with some forms of roofs. Then one day, I got the lightbulb moment. That same thing should happen with stairs with you. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hopefully he will turn the light bulb on before he goes down the stairs.
There are two kinds of people who never amount to much:those who cannot do what they are told, and those who can do nothing else.
yeh it is kind of funny, I can cut roofs with no problem but stairs, they take me some timr!
since my remodeling has me doing different work all the time ...
I usually completely forget how to cut roofs and/or stairs the first day back to doing so. I learned pretty good methods on both back in trade school.
luckily I was forced into taking good notes ... and still have those notebooks in safekeeping ... so I just do some light reading before and can usually fake my way thru till it all comes back.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
no trade schoolhere.
learned by reading and doing.
I'm a finish carpenter cabinet guy turned remodel contractor. SO when it comes to framing of any complexity, pariticularly roofs I hire an old timer buddy o' mine to be lead guy. I act as the helper / nailer / gopher.
I can cut roofs with no problem but stairs, they take me some timr!
You and I could work together then, I love doing stair work and I've never had to do to much roof cutting. A simple roof racks my brain, I get the hip/common thing all mixed up and then its cut by trial and error, mostly error! I can do a curved stairway, and understand the math involved, with no problem.
Doug
well doug, I think we may be a tad to far apart to help each other!
Dont discount a good idea over small details!
Doug
I think we should start a new stair cutting thread and analyze Frammer2's thought process. I think we could fix him up in one thread! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Good idea, probably help a lot of people. Always surprises me that a lot of guys cant do a simple set of stringers.
Doug
I'd love to see Mike get on this board to speak to all the flake he's taking.
I preferred Mike when he 1st came out. I also don't get what's up with all the screws. Now I got homeowners thinking I should be using screws cuz they saw Mike using em.
As far as his attitude about the lousy GC's. That's sort of the point of the show, so knocking him for that desn't make a lot of sense. It's not like watching Bob Villa, where all in the world of house construction is a beautiful thing. Mikes showing the ugly side if things, and is trying to make it better. I also here him make positive comments from time to time when he comes across something done well.
as far as it's all done in a week, I don't think a lot jobs are meant ot be percieved that way. They do appear to go at er, to get things done for the show. But the show goes from start to finish most often in one epside. So watching it can give the Illusion that it's all done just like that. Again unlike, Villa's show that that show detailed steps throughout an extended series of programs
I agree, he's a little over the top. And some things don't make a whole lot of sense. Like all those screws - he he. Maybe they just likes using those DeWalt Impact Guns.
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Edited 4/30/2008 10:32 pm by alrightythen
Mike uses screws cuz, DeWalt duzn't make a hammer!
they make nail guns View Image View Image
Did you see the one he built the house in Cal., he said he couldn't understand how nails were allowed, because they pull out so easy. Then he nailed into timberstrand and couldn't pull it out.
He is of the mistaken impression that because nails pull out so easy, they shouldn't be used. He forgot or doesn't know about the law of gravity!
I use nails because of sheer strenth. Screws are very useful in remodeling, i will admit.
yup ... nails have shear and screws don't rattle the old plaster off the walls!
the one where the guy built the roof too low was after the other dude already left and started his own company. The new "lead" is a bigger kid.
it all does make for fun TV though.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Wouldn't whether a screw offers shear strength depend on which screw you're using? I mean, drywall screws obviously aren't a good choice, but it seems to me that a screw is superior to a nail as long as it's the proper size and type.
Nailing is quicker, so I could see why it would be favored, but I would think that in places where earthquakes and hurricanes are a concern, properly-rated screws will eventually be required.
of course, but have yet to see screw with the shear strength of proper framing nails. Besides framing nails have a coating when shot into wood makes it difficult to remove.
If you are a fan of holmes you have an example when mike was in cal. building a house for person that got screwed over. when he tryed to remove the nail he ended up breaking it of to remove.
Yeah, I saw that one. I don't remember that, but I don't doubt that nails can be very difficult to remove.
I've been using a lot of screws remodeling my home's interior. As my plans have changed, I've had to cut through more than a few with a sawzall. And I can tell you that they are much, much, much harder to cut through than framing nails. I don't what that says (if anything) in terms of shear strength.
Try this test on those screws, drive one in part way, smack it with a hammer sideways, probably break it off. Do that with a 16p nail and tell me what happens!
Now frame your wall up, sheet it, tell me how that will pull apart, the sheeting will tie it all together. A hurricane that will pull apart a nailed together house will not have any more trouble pulling apart a screwed together house.
I hate it too when I have to cut through a cabinet and hit a screw, cant do it very easy but that's a whole other thing! I can break a screw off a hell of a lot easier then I can break a nail off!
The subject of screwing houses together comes up around here annually, never ceases to amaze me those that believe its a good idea and how they will blindly argue it. Such a complete waste of money.
Doug
thanks Doug. the explanation is what I was driving at,
that has nothing to do with shear, more to do with temper!
While you're correct that temper affects whether a piece of metal will bend or break under a specific load, you're overlooking the failure modes of the fasteners. A nailed panel under a heavy shear load can distort & deflect to a certain degree without total failure because the nails will bend, and may pull out some. In addition, because of the malleability of the nails, is less likely to fail when hit with some kind of shock loading (earthquake or wind buffeting). A screwed panel, on the other hand is more likely to fail catastrophically when subjected to an overload because the fasteners themselves break.
I don't diagree with you.
I do not think they are framing with drywall screws.
What if the screw was the same material as a framing nail and the same diameter (the center of the screw, not counting the threads)?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
PP,I'm no expert. It's been a long time since the college days. So this is the best I can do until a real engineer weighs in. Screws must be harder than nails because of the torques applied when installing. The shaft has to resist any deformations, and, of course, the head has to stay on as the screw is torqued down. That alone makes them more brittle. I think, because of that, there are a lot of structural cases where screws are not allowed, period. A nail of the same diameter is much "tougher", i.e. malleable. It will deform prior to breaking, as has already been pointed out. Screws will generally break when subject to limit shear loads or impacts. Screws, on the other hand, are much better against withdrawal, or tension, type forces. That's why they are good for roof or floor decking.Simplified, there is an "either - or" situation in material hardness/toughness in a given metal. It can be treated to either be malleable & soft, or hard & brittle.
One other thing, why use a fastener that is not neaded for the application? shear strenth is need when framing, not pull out strength..
Even though there may be screws that can be used in framing, why go to the expense of added labor and more expensive material?
I'm no engineer, but I think pull out strength is a huge issue in places where hurricanes and earthquakes are common.
I don't know anything about hurricanes, but I've done lots of shearwalls designed for earthquake resistance and the engineers always spec. nails.
ditto.
Engineers can be funny, but I think it's safe to assume they know something. View Image View Image
Yeah, I may as well add my vote for nails as well. In Canada when I framed out in Calgary for a few summers, I used a lot of screws for fixing the interiors of recently framed houses. Screws were useful in places you couldn't fit your hammer or nail gun, and screws held things together well.
Here in Japan, I frame and finish my homes mostly with nails, and use screws often, but never in a real structural situation. We get earthquakes all the time here, and a lot of times when they start, it feels like somebody has picked the house up and dropped it. That's where screws would break, snap, whereas nails might bend a little but they hold....
As for hurricanes, typhoones, etc. I think the holding power of screws would be about the same as nails....as its not a "dropping" force exerting on the house, its more of a pulling force.
Now to disprove all of what I just wrote, the engineering codes for 2x4 housing here in Japan actually include screws in framing hardware now. I use L shaped hold down pieces that sit on the inside of an exterior wall corner and it gets 4 x 5" Robertson screws into the bottom plate, and 3 x 4" screws into the side corner studs. The screws are all color coded for inspections, and must have exceptional sheer strength as they are taking the place of Simpson s-65 strap ties that usually go on the exterior vertically from stud to joist.
Nails 2 Screw 1
SS
"Code is 6", but I'm doing 12". It's better than code!!!!!"
I love watching the show, but it's like listening to Click and Clack: it's entertaining, but they dispense a lot of bad advice. I feel the same about Holmes, he does a lot of things right, but sometimes he does things so wrong that I'm left agast.
One episode, they fix a water problem with two porch front rowhouses by completely removing the porch, and replacing it with a horribly ugly deck and small roofs over the entry doors. It looked awful and was no longer in character with rest of the neighborhood.
Not to mention his fascination with that weird pseudo tile product that they tape the floor in the desired pattern then pour the stuff over it.
Z
I saw that episode and you are right. Doing away with the covered porches made the houses look out of place. Sure it offered more light, but I would have never gone for that.
I think most of his design ideas are pretty bad. But who's going to tell him? The people are so happy to have a home they can live in again that they aren't going to criticize his choices.
I've often thought you could have a great show that goes around a year or so after all of these surprise design shows and sees how much of the design has been changed. But the people Holmes is helping are so traumatized that they'll probably never even paint again.
ever see the new show "Under Construction"?
it's about business partners in NY.
decent ...
'cept for the last episode where they showed the partner who seems to do more hands on work tiling a new shower with a bucket of mastic.
tv cameras must make ya stupid.
maybe the lights are too bright to think?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I throw a SWAG out and say probably 25% of the showers in Bkyn done in the last 15 years are done with mastic some last most don't. Lots of landlord and treehouse grade flips renos out there.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
A whole bucket of mastic? I can do a shower with less than half!
As Holmes crew members move on he replaces them with photogenic young women.
Mytulpa,
Interesting.
Russell,
"Welcome to my world"
I too can only take very small doses of Mike Holmes. According to him, he's the only guy who does things right, which is hard to equate with the way he gets each reno done in a week flat, including tearout, framing, drywall, paint and tile work. Sadly, I don't have subs who will pull all nighters on a regular basis.
On the plus side, I have been known to get a project-well-done hug from the occasional H.O., so I must be doing it almost as right as Mike after all....
I kind of enjoy the show.Not to defend him, but I don't recall anything about getting done in a week. There are plenty of times he even mentions way more time than that, and even has to ask for a few more weeks.Glenn
I bought a couple of his DVD's and brought them back to Japan with me. I liked the first few seasons, but then he just got repetitive, and I think he added a little too much of his own 'sense' into the final touches, colors, etc. I'd have a designer do that for me, or at least consult the homeowners a lot more about what they want...
As for the screws, I've posted about this on Breaktime before, and was corrected by Piffin, (which I appreciated) so I'll be careful..... I use a lot more of them than most carpenters do, especially in my interior work, but have eased off on using them in framing. I'll use them sometimes to draw warped studs together, or for temporary holding before nails, but I always use nails to bear the brunt of the work.
I think old Mike Holmes has lost his objectivity though...its too bad.
SS
I have a feeling that Holmes is getting a lot of donated materials, hence the "leave the design to me" thing. I don't care for his tastes, (particularly the porch thing) but I wouldn't say they are bad.But I'd never let someone tell me what color or design for my place.
Only caught a few episodes....
But I wonder,....who pays for his work, and how much.
The oldest rule in const that I know of is "the impossible triad."
Good, Fast, and Cheap......you can pick any 2, but you can never have all 3.
So...if he professes to do everything better than "code minimum", and does it all in a fraction of the time it takes anyone else......
How much does he charge?
Who foots the bill?
It's been said ad naseum, the show pays for the goods. You have to remember, it's a tv show, so materials / labour are production costs, the same as if they paid actors and built sets.
I don't agree with everything he says or does, but man oh man, Toronto sure has its share of nasty contractors and gullible homeowners.
They say the labour is donated.
my unerstanding is if the ho has not paid the total bill to the con. he then pays mike the difference. Then mike production co picks up the balence.
Remember he uses donated labor and carp. in training programs as well.
you can get "good" and "cheap" combined? View Image View Image
you can get "good" and "cheap" combined?
Yes,
As in.... you do a really good job for someone at a discount price (family/friend) but can only work on it when you do not have any better paying jobs going......hence ....
not the "fast".
OK well...in that case. you can get good and free as well.
I take "fast" to be more relative to speed in which the work is done as opposed to scheduling.
Some work can be done fast and good at the same, recently a customer came out to check on our progress, and said "wow you guys are fast." I took it as a compliment, but personally I'd rather hear "wow you guys are good."
somethings I can do really fast 'cuz I'm good and I know how to do it fast. Other things, take more time because there is more detail involved or I have less experince in that area.
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Edited 5/9/2008 10:22 pm by alrightythen