Everyone,
I have to case 11 doors with 4.5 inch windsor casing (mitered corners). My plan was to prime all 6 sides, pre-assemble with biscuits, titebond molding glue and clam clamps. My miters opened on my family room remodel and I’m trying to avoid having that happen again so — as a starter – I installed a humidifier on the forced hot air heating system. I also considered using the FASTCAP 2P-10 adhesive and skipping the gluing/clamping. Any recommendations regarding titebond & Clamps vs. FASTCAP on this trim project would be appreciated.
Thanks
Frank R.
Replies
Hey Frank,
4.5 in. @45*=about 6 3/8 in., don't think anything will hold it together if it wants to move.
But, ya gotta try. Don't seal (prime) the mitered ends. Any glue needs to get into the pores to work. Fit the miters together,not just cut and nail up. I use plain old yellow glue and two nails driven horz./vert. at the outside of the miter.
Seems to work for me.
Never really understood the pre assembly thing. You assemble so you get perfect miters off the saw without fitting to the opening. Then you hang the casing and make it fit,stressing the miter,causing it to break the glue bond(eventually).The first chance the wood gets to move it does.
If you nail up the casing in place one piece at a time it has already moved to where its wants to be. Or just pre assemble, use minimum nailing and caulk and let the assembly float.
Good Luck!
DAVE
First recomendation is to allow the casing to acclimate in your home...preferably within the rooms in which it will be installed....10 to 14 days.
I agree also with the previous poster....preassmbly gets everything nice and tight....until, you go to apply it at the door. Install peices individually making adjustments to cuts as necessary.
Don't prime surfaces to be glued....Titebond II has always worked well for me.
Biscuits can't hoyt.
Good luck.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Dave and JD,
Thanks for the comments. I've never pre-assembled before, but after reading Jim Chestnut's articles in JLC and FHB, I was tempted to give it a try to see if the biscuits would keep the miters from opening. I have a choice of getting my casing in primed MDF, pine or poplar. Any recommendations? Have you ever worked with MDF casing?
FR
I remember one of his preassembly articles saying the advantages were for production trim crews - saving trips back and forth to the saw, one room could be designated as "assembly room" and low skill carpenters could be taught to assemble and install, which freed more expensive help for built ins and more challenging work. No comment.
I still cut and fit casings one stick at a time. Titebond II is good glue but I like to use moulding glue for mitered joints - really gets a strong tack fast. Discovered it by mistake when my son came back from the lumber yard with a bottle of it instead of carpenter's glue. Good stuff, give it a try.Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Moulding glue huh?
I'm unfamiliar....got a name brand?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I'm pretty sure Franklin makes it, J.D. My pocket bottle is up at the new house. I'll try to remember to retrieve it if I go up there this weekend and report the manufacturer. It comes in the same type plastic bottles as carpenters and white glues.
It's white. In fact, when Todd brought it back from the yard I thought it WAS white glue until I tried to apply it. It is really thick...not sure if it has more solids, or what, but when it flowed out so slowly I read the label and that was the first I'd heard of it "Moulding Glue, tacks fast" it said.
Tacks fast is right. And strong, even on end grain. But I recommend buying it in those real small bottles because by the time I get about 1/2 way through even one of those the rest of the bottle flows about like 90 weight in January. And I don't think it's good outdoors. But it's great for interior applications like mitered casing.Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Great....I'll have to keep an eye out for it.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Hey. didn't you do a little write up about that in FHB a couple years back? Only I thought you said it was titebond in the mag. Did they creativley switch your words around?
Rock the Tipi. 06
Titebond
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=6515&cookietest=1
http://www.franklinadhesives.com/" For 70 years, Franklin Adhesives has been the industry leader in bonding wood and wood products. We market Titebond¯, Multibond¯ and Advantage¯ brand adhesives directly to the wood industry. Franklin Adhesives produces pressure sensitive adhesives for labels, tapes, films and office products markets under the brand names of Covinax¯ and Micronax¯. These adhesives range from FDA approved emulsions for the food packaging market to ultra-removable formulations used in the office products industry.Our Account Managers at Franklin Adhesives have technical backgrounds and years of industry experience. Supporting our Account Managers are technical support and product development labs staffed with chemists, engineers and technicians who have expertise in product development, adhesive machinery, application processes and industry standards.As you navigate this site, please feel free to call anytime for additional information or for help finding what you need. For information on general-purpose glues sold in smaller sizes for projects including cabinetry, finish trim, craft assembly and general household repairs, please refer to our retail site at
http://www.titebond.com "
90 weight in January
Jim, do you think that you could cut the stuff with alcohol or some other solvent to bring it back to life?
blue
Maybe. Never thought of that, thanks for the idea. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Has anyone tried pocket holes? I try to use them on all my joints. I know it takes more time but it is less time than repairing opened joints. I have not had any j oints open since I started using them. I cut and assemble the frames and let dry overnight (if possible) and then install. After the glue tries for about 2 hrs. they can be handled quite easily. Give them a try.
Of the three, I prefer poplar. Mills great....stable and relatively hard.... takes the occasional bumps and dings.
Not enough experience to comment on the MDF mouldings.....love the sheet goods however.
Pine aint bad.....better for staining....just too soft for my taste. And the clear is pricey as hell. More than oak last time I priced it.
If you go with either the poplar or pine, be sure to allow to acclimate. I can't stress that enough.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I replaced all the old clamshell casing in my house with MDF casing that I made myself on the tablesaw and router table. I did this when I replaced all the doors and windows. The good thing about MDF is that it does not move because it has no pores or inner stress (unlike myself), it is very cheap, and mills out a detail rather nicely. Once it's in, glued and biscuited, that's it. It ain't a-goin' nowhere.
The bad thing is that it's not the easiest stuff in the world to work with. The dust is very fine and gets everywhere, it is prone to splitting or having chunks fly off while shooting a nail into it if you're not careful, it's hell on sawblades, and it's hard to sand.Pine works the easiest but is too soft for my use. If you're looking for something to have a nice patina in 5 years, pine should be your choice. Stains well and has a nice look.Poplar is the one I love to work with. You must acclimate it however like pine or any wood in its natural state. Poplar can be stained but usually with a darker color, as the colors in poplar can vary. If you don't want your joints opening up, I would stress using the biscuits and the moulding glue mentioned previously. I always use them.
Don't put added stress on your joints by pressing them into the wall, let them float and caulk them or back them up with a shim before you set them into place. If the side of the jamb does not run flush and straight with the wall, then either adjust the jamb (making sure that it is always plumb), or if the jamb sits shy off the sheetrock then cut a strip to tack onto the jamb following the wall. If the jamb sits proud of the wall then blockplane the jamb to the wall. Taking the time to do all of this will alleviate the stress you put on the joints thus having them not open.
I never pre assemble. Walls are seldom straight.There's a metaphor in that last sentence, but right now I've only had one cup of coffee.
Frank,
I like MDF for painted woodwork. Profile seems more consistent from piece to piece/end to end. Not so good around moisture. It does tend to split(sometimes) when nailing corners. MDF tends to pucker when nailing, but a sharp chisel will level of the bumps. Spot prime if necessary,otherwise it will shadow thru.
Poplar probably best for all around.
Pine to soft, but great for crown.
Just curious,Could you post a picture of the molding?What size baseboard?How big of a room?Any other moldings or details in the room?
DAVE
Edited 3/11/2006 8:17 am ET by DPR9
Dave,
Thanks for the response. I'm waiting on some samples to arrive from White River. I'm installing wainsot, along with the new casing and baseboard. When, everything is together, I'd be glad to post a picture.
Thanks.
Frank R.
Hey Frank,
White River huh, nice stuff. I did a room using some of their Crown Mold turned out great . Very nice material.
DAVE
I just finished trimming a job, a $1.7 mil spec home, where I preassembled the casings with the clam clamps. I used Windsor casing on that one, bisquiting the miters. But the Windsor I used was the 3-1/2" .
If the doors are set so the corners are really 90 deg, the clamps work great. Double check your saw so it's cutting a true 45. And like others said, let the trim acclimate to the room. I had a few miters open up as the moisture content of the trim dropped. I don't think the type of glue will matter if the wood wants to move.
Everyone,
Thanks for the responses. It is really helpful info.
Shep,
If you were working with biscuits while some of the molding was already up, did you use the clam clamps to draw the miters tight while the glue dried or did you cross shoot it with brads?
Frank R.
I usually left the clamps on for 20-30 minutes. By that time, the glue had set up enough so I could carefully handle the assemblies.
I have 6 of the clam clamps. I would cut, bisquit, and clamp 3 sets. While those were drying, I would cut the next 3, and so on.
I work by myself, and this was pretty quick and efficient.
I didn't read down yet, someone may have already given you this answer, sorry if that's the case, but, if you're using the picture-frame method (pre-assembling):
1) Don't paint 6 sides, the glued ends need to absorb adhesive. Some guys paint it all, then clean off the ends with a Lion trimmer as they assemble.
2) You must let the ends of the casing float or it will pull apart; I like to leave at least a foot on both sides that's not nailed to the jamb. If I have confidence the wood won't curl too badly, then just leave about 4-6" floating on the verticle case, but only nail the centre of the horizontal (3 into the jamb, about 3 " apart; 2 through the top of the casing into the header, about 6" apart).
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario