I am an architect with a home I designed under construction in the lakes region of New Hampshire. My drawings show 6″ exposure cedar siding mitered at the corners. I have seen many older homes with this detail where there is no metal cap over the edge and I have seen new homes that have a fairly conspicuous metal cap over the miter.
The buider and I both have a real concern that the miters will open and curl and not be all that tight after a short time. Down the street from my office there is an old building that has perfect joints after who know how many decades. Could it be that the quality of quarter sawn lumber available enabled this detail in years past?
Does anyone have experience with new construction using mitered corners on cedar clapboards?
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The old clapboard was most likely radially sawn, I recall reading about the process in FHB years ago. Seems like the fellow had one of the few if not only type of saw left. I believe he was located in New Hampshire.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wardclapboard.com%2F&ei=gf8TRqT1JqaGwQLappjbCw&usg=__KK5VTrOK2DG2nMt9O_3iXh6sgVk=&sig2=7NGUq4pg11xb5O8sREmZDwhttp://www.wardclapboard.com/
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I recall when touring the Oak Park, IL, neighborhood in which sit Frank Lloyd Wright's 1897 studio-home and a number of his commissions, that the three earliest all sported mitered clap corners.
And all looked pretty good, considering their advanced age.
Must be that rugged Maine coast where you live and work. Makes everything crusty, curly, gnarley, even just plain ornery! ;-)
I think the quality of the lumber is far inferior to many of the old time stuff.
I wouldn't mitre mine. I might butt and lap and cut it to look like it was mitred if it was a paint job.
We don't do enough cedar siding in MI for my opinions to be worth much though.
blue
"...
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Here's the mill I believe the other poster was talking about: http://wardclapboardmill.com/
Radial sawn claps would probably help, but I still wouldn't try to miter clapboards. Just too much chance of them opening up. What you could do is lap them like you would shingles, each side butting into the other side. With some PL Premium in the joint I bet most joints would hold, but a few would still probably open up.
mitred clap[ siding corners is the worst possible way to do this if you want a life long quality job. It is a detail I would send back to the architect for review and request that it bechanged or that I be relieved of liability related to it. I might even refuse to do it this way.
It is also the most expensive way to trim the corners.
If you want siding clear to the corner with no cornerboard, it should be crooss lapped like we do with cedar shingle siding. Once painted, you have to be withing a few feet to see the difference between that method and a finished mitre.
For the fi5rst copuple of years.
After that, the mitred corner sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't look nearly as good.
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Not mitered, but buttlapped with joints alternating as is done with shingles, it is done all the time here on the great-camp-style homes done for the rich and famous, but always using waney-edge clapboard siding.
Looks quite good, actually, and I have never seen any joints gone bad, even on the stuff from back as far ago as the 1880s.
Is waney edge siding live edge siding? Although its a lake "camp" the owners are looking for a finished look. So it will be 6" exposure cedar siding painted with a Sickens opaque product. Should have a clean look when complete. Are you still of the same opinion?
Live edge, waney edge, both probably the same. Here in the Adirondacks, everyone calls it "brainstorm." Here is a pic I snapped off a little place listed for $1.95 million. I wanted the pic to use as a texture in "painting" sidewalls of a Sketchup model I am working on.
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Maybe I'll snap some photos of corners and post them here.
Gene,
I had to do a double take on that siding. Here those would be either run back thru a saw to true them up or called slabs and cut up for firewood.
are you saying that even if it is finished with the crosslap detail like you are describing that it will stick out like a sore thumb after a few years? Or is the crosslap method a reasonable way to finish a corner without corner boards that will stand the test of time?
I'm saying the mitred will separate and pull apart the joint and will cost a lot more in labour to give you a less weatherproof joint
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You made me curious so I went out and looked at our mitered claps on the addition. These were mitered to match the rest of the house, before I discovered FHB so they're over 6 years old. They look fine to me - what should I be looking for that "sticks out like a sore thumb"?
Great. That makes yours special and rare. Maybe you can post photos and tell us how to do that. It ignores one of the basic rules of weather shielding - using opposing laps to stand the test of time.
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No need to be snide. Like I said, we did it before I discovered FHB and didn't know what we were doing - so we just matched what was already on the house. We'll just count ourselves lucky that this is one mistake that hasn't bitten us (yet).
He's not being snide I don't think. What we'd all like to see and hear is your detail.
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Well, it's too dark for a pic tonight, so I'll try to take one tomorrow. The siding is cedar, about 8" exposure, beveled with 5/4" thick at the edge. Memory is dim (brain cells dribbled out when I had kids) but as I recall we mitered it, put a little primer on the edge, and screwed 'em up there. Nothing special because we were completely clueless on what to do. We used screws because we couldn't find stainless nails ANYWHERE, even the little lumber shop that sold us the cedar said they use galvanized. Finally, in desperation, we walked into home depot (I know, last resort) and the guy in the fastener department suggested screws.
Interestingly enough (to me at least), the original siding is some sort of pine, and those beveled corners look fine to me as well. I know the house went for several years in need of a paint job with one of the previous owners when he became elderly, and it currently needs another, perhaps this detail is one reason why.
The thickness of your siding explains a LOT.
Typically, clapboard is only 1/2" to 5/8" thick at the butts.
You don't really have clapboad - you have thick beveled siding. The thickness and the screws means it is like logs bolted up to the side of the house!;)
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Thanks for explaining why it worked. Sorry I called you snide - must have been a "girl" moment for me in the way I read it.
I like the way the mitered corners look on our ranch. It mirrors the japanese flare of the roof line.
"must have been a "girl" moment for me"LMAO
yeah, you gurls do "snide" more often than us guys;)MOF, I often forget that you are a girl you are here so much and do so much guy work.
That was a compliment, BTW
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FWIW, I'm seeing a communication issue between yourself and Paul. What you're describing is hardly the 'norm' for siding. When I think of cedar clapboards, I'm picturing what is standard fair around here......cedar claps that are about 7/16" at their thickest point and then taper down to paper over the next 5 1/4".
The premium stock on your house is a whole 'nother animal. Yes, I'd consider mitering that stuff too. Shoot, you could do pretty much anything with stock like that including getting a good solid glue joint and solid nailing. That's something that's pretty tough to achieve working with typical cedar claps at 4" exposure. But even with thick stock.... I really only like to miter exterior joints if I think there is no other choice.
I don't think either one of you is right or wrong.... I just think you're comparing apples to Volkswagon's. ;)View Image
Not snide at all. If somebody can do this and have it succeed, I want to know how. I didn't get to be this good by ignoring methods better than what I already know.
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A really crummy photo of white-pine brainstorm claps, overlapping corners, is shown here. My cellphone camera lens must have had way too much pocket lint on it.
Each course is lapped opposite as courses go up. Since board width varies, mismatched bottom edges of corners are simply hatcheted to shape to gain alignment. Not mitered, but pretty handsome anyhow. This stuff gets slapped up and stained dark most of the time, thus the joints and endgrain kind of disappear in the whole rustic tableaux.
View Image
This method surely has withstood the test of time in these woods. But for others in different climes, your mileage may vary.
This method surely has withstood the test of time in these woods
Can you quantify that a bit? Are we talking 10 years, 50 years, 100 years...?
I'm surprised I've never seen the cross-lap method of installing horizontal siding out here in the Pacific NW (shingles are always woven, but the horizontal siding was either mitered or fitted to corner boards). Maybe the abundance of high quality cedar never forced builders to consider alternate installation methods.
Thanks again for your input.
There's a rustic chapel on an island in the Upper Saranac Lake here, that has siding and corners like this, and it and its siding date to 1896.
Howzat?
...siding date to 1896. Howzat?
Works for me! ;) Like I've said before, I always value real world results more highly than those obtained in a test lab. Was the chapel siding filled with as many knots as the earlier photo you posted? I'm amazed something that knotty doesn't roll up on itself like an old plan set.
Thanks again for the input.
You are right, it is a pretty crumby photo!
;)I see live edge in Maine and have seen it in CO and where I grew up in NY too.Don't care for it personally but I have no objection to it in its place.I prefer lapped corners. When paint grade, using filler and a ROS while laying up, the joint disappears.with the greek revival style dominating here, we do almost entirely cornerboard style trim though.
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I wouldn't categorize his post as snide. How else would you want to hear his expert opinion? He's stating some pertinent basic facts.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
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Great. That makes yours special and rare. Maybe you can post photos and tell us how to do that. It ignores one of the basic rules of weather shielding - using opposing laps to stand the test of time.
Thanks, Piffin! I guess that makes me special and rare, too. ;) I've done mitered corners on a number of houses, and haven't had any particular problems with it.
In my neighborhood, mitered corners are very popular (most of the houses were built around the 1910s). Anyway, some of the houses still have their original siding after all those years. So it's difficult to argue that mitered corners will always look like crap after just a few years.
I like the idea of using opposing laps; hadn't heard of that before. The only thing that bothers me with that approach is that the end grain will be fully exposed. But if you can vouch that this approach has withstood the test of time I can't argue with it.
Regards,
Ragnar
Edited 4/4/2007 10:16 pm ET by Ragnar17
I think the thing to do is we'll quit throwing stones at each others methods all of us and get down to teaching the how to detailing.I'll come back to the thread this afternoon.Just finishing my coffee now and have to run - we got eight inches of snow so far last night and it is still coming. I have to plow so people can get to jobs.
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I think the thing to do is we'll quit throwing stones at each others methods all of us and get down to teaching the how to detailing.
Are you including me in the group of stone throwers?
Not at all, your balanced professional reply is what inspired my more moderatetone and response. Sorry if it appeared otherwise. I simply meant the lappers vs the miterers in general.So -
To lap a corner, once the correct bevel cut is determined for each side, one can make the cuts on any chop saw and lay them together. Nt even a need to scribe and work back from corner. A tape measure held in the right place gives the right measurement. Can even do it working alone.To be fair, I have only done a mitered siding one time. It was an architects specification thirty years ago. We were all working for hourly wages but it was so slow and frustrating that each of us swore that there was no way we would ever want to do that again. We used some sort of glue in the joints, but I don't know if it held or not. Never went back.Since then, over the years, I have rarely seen a mitred siding approach, but every ttime I saw it, it was in failure, needing either caulk or metal trims. That is my basis for opinion.
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Thanks for the clarification, Pfn.
As I said in another post, I'm very glad to have heard of this cross-lapping technique. It must be a regional thing, though, because I've NEVER seen it in my neck of the woods.
I'll be the first to admit that mitered corners are slow and tedious!
The big learning experience for me, though, is that I might be able to apply this cross-lap to modern siding materials and achieve the look of a mitered corner. That'd be a real blessing, because up til now, we've just not been able to use modern horizontal siding because of this limitation.
What's your experience with Hardie siding and this cross-lap method. Will it work? Will Hardie void the warranty?
I've not yet had the opportunity to use Hardisiding.Our customers are very traditional oriented and like wood
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You made me curious so I went out and looked at our mitered claps on the addition. These were mitered to match the rest of the house, before I discovered FHB so they're over 6 years old. They look fine to me - what should I be looking for that "sticks out like a sore thumb"?
I don't do a ton of siding, but the era of the houses I work on demands that beveled siding be mitered.
Like you, I haven't had a problem with it. I think it just takes attention to detail when cutting the miters. I also prime the cut before installing it -- I think that helps prevent the end grain from wicking water. I use clear cedar, but the grain varies within each bundle (some flat grain, some vertical, and some mixed). If I could find a source for vertical-grain only (i.e. radial sawn), I would probably pay for the better product.
No offense intended here, but shouldn't you have thought about it before you drew it? I have seen this like you described on the old building, but it was with much thicker ship lapped siding, something that could really hold a corner. Clapboard is just too thin for this.
We did something similar a few years back with hardiplank. It worked very well, but like Piffin said, it is very expensive.
We did something similar a few years back with hardiplank. It worked very well, but like Piffin said, it is very expensive.
Did you actually miter the hardiplank, or did you cross lap?
I think somebody suggested a miter, which was tried (for kicks) and the results were about as bad as you'd expect. Lapping worked just fine.
Thanks for the input, Tek. I've always had a problem with lots of modern siding simply because you can't miter it to match the look of the existing work on period homes. This cross-lapping technique is going to open up a door for me.
Did you say how long ago you did this job? I'd like to get an idea of the longevity of the solution before I talk somebody into putting it up on their house!
Also, do you know whether Hardie officially approves of that method?
This was done about 4 years ago. As far as I know, it still looks like it did when the job was finished. The hardi rep wasn't much help on this. There's nothing in their technical literature showing or telling you it's ok. What it came down to was he couldn't think of a reason it wouldn't work and said go for it.
I'm almost positive ice and water shield was put on the corner in case there was a problem.
That is a point that should be stressed for any of these methods. We used to use 30# felt but products like Vycor are better and easier to use now.
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We did an addition to a house in New York and have had no problems with the outside miters opening up. We bought preprimed cedar and made sure all of the cuts were primed and then we used exterior wood glue on the joints. So far so good.
Good luck with your project.
P.S. The lapped corners look terrible, no matter how far away you are. Corner boards would be better than that.
La[[ed can look bad - depends how well it is done.What kind of wood glue?
How Nailed?
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It was titebond exterior carpenters glue, the siding was nailed with
1 3/4" stainless ring shank nails and the corners were pinned with
1 1/2" galvanized finish nails. I truly believe the key is to seal the cut ends with primer first. It is pointless to buy primed cedar and not seal the cuts like most guys do. I cannot stress this enough. That cut end becomes like a sponge when it gets wet which may not be such a big deal on butt joints, but on an outside miter it is critical. On an average house it takes a $10.00 can of primer and a few throw away brushes and very little time.
We prime cuts too.I use a throwaway brush and take a pepsi bottle, then stick the handle of the brush up through the top hole, cut around the collar, and have a drip catch and evaporation shield on thebrush so it lasts longer in hot sun and we don't get as much flies and sawdust in the paint pot.
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I use a throwaway brush and take a pepsi bottle, then stick the handle of the brush up through the top hole, cut around the collar, and have a drip catch and evaporation shield on thebrush
We use soda bottles, but throw away the top. I'm stealing the drip-catcher idea!
I honestly usually can't tell the difference between mitered corners and lapped corners unless I get right up close. And then it jumps right out at me cuz the mitered ones are usually full of caulking. ;)
Could it be that the quality of quarter sawn lumber available enabled this detail in years past?
Personally, I think lots of manufacturers and contractors use the "old growth lumber" claim as a cop out. It's true that high-quality lumber was more plentiful in bygone decades. However, it IS still available today -- at a higher cost, of course.
If you use Home Depot knotty, furry CRAP, then I think mitered corners would be a bad idea. But if you get some clear stock (preferably vertical grained) and the contractor makes sure to take his time to do good work, I think you'll get good results just like they did 100 years ago.
I have to admit that I'm partial to the look of mitered corners. For this reason, I guess I'm willing to go through some extra trouble to achieve that look. But I would agree with others here that from a purely functional point of view, corner boards make more sense in attaining a more durable finished product with less hassle.
I have done both. Mitering is not the preferred method mostly because of time. If you do a really close & careful job with the alternate lapping, you are better off IMO. Miters do open up and like somebody said when closely viewed, they always have caulk caked in them. Alternate lapping is the time tested method certainly with shakes and mostly claps.
I'd never have tried it but for that pesky "match existing" note on the elevations (full disclosure -- I wrote the note). This was in 1992, and the house was a 1960 ranch in steamy South Carolina with clear stained cedar siding. I was building an addition that met the existing at one inside corner and one flat run. The original stuff was quartersawn 7-1/2"x3/4" tapered to 1/2" -- 4" exposure, if I recall. Almost all the original mitered joints looked great. I got some closely matching material milled locally -- had to plane it a little for smoothness, and installed most of it in the typical manner. Inside corners were woven butt, outside mitered. Of course I back-primed and end-stained. At outside corners, I left the last 18" or so loose, cut each board just slightly long so that there would be a bit of gap to the sheathing, and fastened through the miters with one 2" stainless trim screw per board. Tediousness factor was high-ish, but not as bad as I'd feared. I think I may even have turned a hundred bucks on the job!
I last saw the place 5 years after finishing it, and the wood color had evened-out enough to make it hard to find the transition from old to new. Best of all, my corners looked almost as good as those 4 decades older, with just some superficial end-splits outboard of the screws and virtually no opening of corners. might have to return soon to see how things stand 10 years later.
I just wish that I could have been there in 1960 to learn from the guy who did that siding oriiginally.
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