We are working on a new home that the architects have specified to use beveled siding without corner boards, using mitered outside corners. We are using KD, 3/4″ thick butt bevel siding, 7 1/4″ wide, with 6 to 6 1/4″ exposure. It is all clear, vertical grain material but we are concerned about the corners seperating. Any ideas? Thanks a lot for any feedback.
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I think your architects do not understand wood and the way it moves. The material must be very expensive that you are using . Your architects are idiots.
I would biscuit the ends and glue with gorilla glue and nail the edges with about three brads on each side and hope for the best. Of course you would back prime or seal all sides. If there is any flat grain or center piths in the mix then use those pieces on the north side where there is less exposure. With only 3/4" butt thickness on a 7 1/4" wide board I hope they didn't spec blind nailing too. Do not use tyvek. Western Red Cedar rots tyvek for some reason. Use tar paper.
In a few year when all the corners open up then someone will apply corner boards over the top to give the spider hole amateur look to the siding.
Mitered siding corners? Why design such a cheap look that'll open up? Idiot architect should have speced beveled dovetailed corners! Where did he get his degree from? Maybe I'll mail order one of my own too! Are there manufacturer specs for the install or is the siding coming from a nearby mill? CYA brother. Does he possibly mean a cedar corner post that is mitered from 1x? Never heard or seen of mitered clapboards.
Mike Callahan has it right. prime all sides, gorilla glue and small nails to pin it together and then sit back and wait for them to open up. It's a common look on older homes here in Seattle, but usually with smaller exposure 3 - 4 inch. I think it's a good look when done right, when all joints are tight, but there are a lot of homes here with rot at the corners where things open up and let water in. Older homes didn't always have tar paper underneath. With such wide siding you are going to invariably be trying to match a piece that is slightly cupped one way with a piece that is slightly cupped the opposite way on the other side and it is fun to get it to match up. One more hint if you do it, wrap the corners with self adhesive flashing 6" back from the corner both ways so that when it does open up at least the water stays out.
Thank you all for your input and feedback. We have certainly been concerned about the same issues and though I failed to mention it in my original posting, we were not going to finish the siding. This is a spec home and we were waiting for a sale to allow the buyer to pick the finish. We have built many unfinished cedar homes, though usually shingle. I grew up in North Jersey and vacationed various places on the east coast where and I have seen plenty of unfiinished cedar which has aged well. Hopefully, I can get the architects to allow corner boards.
I have forwarded the comments to our architects who are good guys and excellent designers. I have worked for idiiot architects, and these guys are not idiots. Sometimes it is easy to sit back and take shots at what we percieve as "the other side" but I would like to think we should all be trying to be on the same side, 'eh? The side that is trying to build the best possible house...
Corlis--
I respect the loyalty you show in trying to defend your archie, but some things are indefensible.
Specifying mitred corners in lap siding is one of them.
It
Does
Not
Work
.
Using corner boards is not a 'cheap' way to solve the problem of joining siding at corners; it is the best way. The practical function of siding is to shed water and keep it away from the structure of the building. Opened mitres let in water, no matter how nice your archie thinks they might look on paper. Making that practical goal subservient to æsthetics is the mark of someone who is living in an ivory tower, detatched from the reality of building. It is this type of architect who gives the architectural profession a bad name among builders.
If you want to do something nice for this person, get him/her to wake up and smell the coffee. Don't back him up when he's dead wrong.
BTW: interesting screen-name you have there. You wouldn't be from Québec, by any chance??
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
If your architects are good guys, they will be able to recognize when they are wrong.
Are you the owner of this spec house or is it a third party? If you are the owner, make the call and tell the architects to come up with another suggestion. It won't be the first or last time they will have to compromise with esthetics.
You might want to print out this thread for them. I would.
Well, it may be that the term idiot used here was a bit over the top, but I use it pretty freely on the job myself. I have seen siding with no cornerbords, but never mitered. If you are installing without backsealing the siding, you are doing your homeowner a dis-service.The homes in the east that have weathered cedar exposed do no have a 6" exposure with only a 1" lapp. To do that without prefinishing this siding is asking for trouble. Are you hoping to just get it finished and sold before the problems start to show up?> Or are you really trying to get this right? I think the latter, since you have posted this question in that context. Will it ruin the look of the house to use a 5" exposure on this siding? I'm aware that the narrow lines vs the wide board look changes the appearance drasticly sometinmes but I don't have an opinion for you without seeing the overall shape of the building.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We sure want to do this house as well as we can. It is a spec house at a resort, a second home market. We were planning on leaving it unfinished until sale, where we would let the owner pick a finish. We have built plenty of unfiinished cedar homes, just never with a miter corner detail.
Regarding the overlap, the material is 7 1/4" so the overlap will be 1 1/4" and more than that I think would put the nail up too high above the 3/4" butt, since you don't want the nail to penetrate the piece below. It is all old growth, clear, VG material, so I would hope it would be pretty stable. A rendering of the house is under "featured project" at our home page http://www.corlisdesign.com
Mitered corners on bevel siding is not that uncommon on older homes in my area. The siding is mostly old growth Redwood. Some of the homes have metal corners covering the miter and I suspect those corners were available from the lumberyard once upon a time. I have seen mitered corners on newer homes with Cedar siding; the look your going for. Problematic no doubt, as everyone has already mentioned.
Tom
corlis.... ask a pro painter... leaving cedar siding unfinished to be finished later is bad news
the cedar develops a sheen that should be sanded back down to new wood before priming..
so.. in the end you are not backpriming... and you are putting a finish on an improperly prepped siding..
mitered corners are overdone on exterior trim... and you are not working with trim , you're working with siding.. all-in-all.... i don't like any of the specs you've discussed
leaving the finish to be determined by the buyer is not a good idea...
are you concerned that they might like a clear finish? if they want a painted finish... then go ahead and prime everything
BTW... i dislike clear finishes on exterior wood
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I agree with everything you say about the siding, if we are going to finish it, it should be now. If it is going to have finish, it needs to be backprimed and yeah, once it weathers, you have to get it back to raw wood to properly adhere a finish.
I like the natural look, so I hesitate to finish it, since the "natural" finishes just last a couple of years. The home is in a resort where maintenance doesn't seem to be the issue though... I grew up in a 100 year old cedar shingled house that had never had finish and it looked fine to me...
I don't know how your website images are set up, but unless all your potential customers are using DSL lines, youi will not get their attention with the website. The examples of work are astounding in many ways, varying to diverse tastes, but half an hour is too long to see six pages of a brochure with my dial up connection.The kitchen work is stunning and this job, on first impression, is not the work of idiots, but some details could use correction...Now for a word about the corners - In the one exterior rendering, it does not seem like mitred corners would contribute anything visual and there are many corners around where they will not show anyway. Of the prominently visible ones, most are on the porch, where there will be a lot of traffic passing by them, to chip and splinter them apart. The more I see, the less reason to mitre the corners. I do see a reason to keep the horizontal lines of having no cornerboard as a matter of taste, but the lapped ends will serve you far better.Count me in with Mike, think that to install this siding without pre-priming and backpriming sounds insane. It is planning to cause early failure of the product. Regardless of clear or coloured finish, it still needs to be backprimed first
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
sorry it took so long to respond to your post. I appreciate the time you took.
Your point is well taken regarding our website, but we selling to primarily people who probably have fast download capability. I know where I am, it is very rural and phone lines are slow as hell, but folks that can afford good work usually don't have that problem. The other thing about that is most websites have tiny pictures which just give a hint of what is going on, I wanted bigger images to sell the work. What we are trying to sell is great wood handled well, so it was important to display that. (see signature wood section off the home page, http://www.corlisdesign.com)
Regarding the corners and the finish, no doubt about it, the concerns most eveyone gave me are justified and we are staining (with back prime) and doing corner boards. I had to gather feedback to give to the architects, since they had spec'd the no corner boards. They were reasonable once we put everything on the table and we moved on. I will attach a small pix.
My own place (home and office) is over twenty seven years old and I never put anything on it (didn't want to keep it up) and I have no regrets. The house I grew up in didn't have any finish on the cedar shingles and it looked nice IMO and lasted over 80 yrs till sprawl took the house.
Anyway, thanks for the well considered input, I appreciate it.
Just got done viewing your web site, I have high speed so it didnt take any time at all.
Man thats some beautiful work!
I used to work for a shop that did that kind of stuff and I sure do miss it,
Doug
I've seen mitered cedar claps on some older homes around here. None of them have stayed tight over the years. Maybe some of the new adhesives might make a difference, but IMO, probably not.
As a HO, and avid DIYer, and current house builder, I have to ask who is calling the shots here? The Architect or the HO? I once owned a house in Vancouver BC that had such siding joinery. PITA.
We had hoped for 8" beveled cedar siding on our houuse, but with most of the tight grain old growth wood gone, we knew that mitered corners were impossible. Besides, even if such wood were available, the mitered corners are a constant nag to caulk and paint over the years, and that asumes that you are using paint; forget a semi transparent stain, you simply can't keep it looking good.
We're now considering FC board (ugh). As much as I hate the thought of cladding my house in factory-made cement-celulose-soup, I have to admit that the stability, fire resistance, and durability are good. I hope the log and facia accents offset the bland plain-vanilla look of the FC.
Scott.
Edited 9/9/2005 12:09 am ET by Scott
Edited 9/9/2005 12:10 am ET by Scott
Corlis
I have seen houses with alternating lap joints in clapboard corners
That isn't as bad as beveled joints, but it doesn't work either.
This isn't just a question of who takes the heat when the installation fails, the corners leak and things start to rot, is it?
Ron
Beveling the siding will triple the time to install the siding. It's difficult to get the miter perfect with the bowed cedar that you will probably use.
The siding we are getting is supposed to be old growth, all vertical grain, so we are expecting a good quality material. I sure have to be impressed with the fact that no one out there believes it will work.
I did send this thread to our architects as Schelling suggested.
It's not that it won't work but that it costs more and you get a product that I think won't last as long. The bevels always seem to open up and let in water. Look around and see for yourself.
I have done this before and agree that it is time consuming. We worked with old growth VG cedar. It was prefinished with a semi transparent stain. We wrapped the grain around the corners and used sealant to secure the miters. We installed the first board, installed the sealant on the end grain and installed the second board. Wiping off extra sealant as it squeezed out of the miter. All cuts were sealed with stain prior to installation and then a face coat was of stain was applied after installation. Still looks great after ten years with minimal separation at the miters.
Very time consuming installation. Not sure if it is appropriate for a spec house. The sealant that we used was butyl based and allowed for some expansion and contraction.
It can be done.
Wood is Good
Adam Greisz
What was the thickness of your stock? I have done it too but with much thicker stock. The butt end was 1.25" and the tapered end was about 1/2" and the width was 1x6. I am not sure if it still looks good today after about 15 years. The job is close by so I may have a look soon. We did not biscuit the joints or use glue but we did stain the end grain and peppered the edges with 2" brads. It was very labor intensive especially when both ends had to be mitered. It was before gorilla glue was available. The stock was KD and pressure stained at the mill.
I think GG will seal the end grain if you dampen the whole edge and the biscuit. Today when I miter cedar for fascia and stuff I keep a water or pop bottle handy with a nail hole in the cap. I dampen both edges of the piece with the bottle before I GG it. I wear gloves and make sure the GG is spread on the entire surface. It takes a little experience to keep the squeeze out under control.
I suspect the 1x8 stuff with a 3/4" butt is about 3/16ths" thick at the other end. I would first try to talk the architect out of it. If that doesn't work then try to get thicker material.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
I was working with 11/16" x 5 1/2" stock with approximate a 4" reveal. I have not done siding like this since polyurethane glues have become common.
Wood is Good
Adam Greisz<!----><!----><!---->
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You are right to be concerned about the corners separating because the are gauranteed to do just that. This one detail will also increase the siding bid for labnout by about 15-20%, IMO
Why pay more for a poor quality job? This is the wrong place for a mitre. If I were the craftsman, I don't know if I would accept it - probably not if the archies and you insisted - because I have a reputation for quality work.
Thinking this through then, if all the quality craftsmen in your area choose to pass on this job because of a poor detail on what might be an otherwise dedcent house, then you will only be able to hire the poor quality siding subs. That means you will have other problems besides the separating joints.
So go back to your archies and ask them if they have ever done this before and if it really worked. Then go look at that job
If the design is better with no corner boards, there are two ways to eliminate them. One looks a bit tacky - using metal corner covers applied with each course. The other is to weave alternating laps
What about inside corners?Do your archies want them mitered too? I suppose that could work, but again, it will take extra time.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
If the cedar you are going to use is actual old growth and clear you can do it absolutely. Has to be old growth and 100% clear wood.
Have seen lots of examples of high end homes from the 70's with this detail in the siding used. Been involved in at least three renovations where we had to match up the existing siding. Usually the problem is sourcing the material.
Once again if you have access to old growth, edge grain clear cedar it is totally doable. Anything else and forget it.