I have been collecting info on mold for about 2+ years now and have been told by many that some of it will kill you! Well, to my surprise today I just received an email from a site called “Housing Zone” an arm of Professional Builder magazine group, telling me the following.”Doctors find NO evidence of mold as a toxic disease” ! One doctor of the group an allerergist and immunologist said and I quote”There’s no medical evidence right now that people should be concerned or in a panic because there’s mold in there house”another Dr. said”As far as, do you have to be afraid that you are going to drop over dead because you were inhaling Stachybotrys mould spores, there is absolutely no evidence in the medical literature that would make anybody be concerned about that” another Dr said” I think we need to take a step back and be realistic about this” The Stachybotrys have been out there for a few billion years, probably and people have been exposed to it for as long as people have been around and we can’t find good evidence in the medical literature that it causes real disease”! Well there you have it right from the Houston Chronicle.
I guess that must be the last of it now! All the insurance company’s can now sleep better. I bet they are just tripping over each to reduce our premiums that they raised to cover future mold losses! Jim Facinelli
Replies
Some molds supposidly can cause a swollen prostate problem. Also, I have trouble breathing if there's too much around. Is it okay to use my haz chem mask just because of mold? I have the pesticide, organic and yadda yadda level filters and figure they are overkill, but is it a _bad_ idea?
Whenever I read one of those "studies" I'm always very careful to identify who the study was done for, for example, allergists hired by the insurance industry to do an "objective" study on mold will most likely say there's no evidence of harmful effects. From what I understand, the biggest issue is that there simply hasn't been enough research in general to draw any scientific conclusions. However there's too many examples of certain people suffering health effects because of it, that I highly doubt it's a coincidence in each case.
Okay, so the sinus infection I got that was the be all and end all of any infection I've ever had was NOTHING? Let me explain.
At Air Canada, we were doing a major overhaul of an L-1011. We had to cut open the wall between the galley and the cargo. The wall was full of every color mold out there. As this aircraft was mostly used on the southern routes you can just guess at what was in there. Out of the crew of 20 guys working on the overhaul 18 of us were off sick for 2 weeks or more. Green gunk.......nose....... need I say more?
But hey It was all in my head right? ;-)
No wonder flying makes me sick!Excellence is its own reward!
LOL. you have no Idea!!!!!!
I usually just run most of mine through two cycles of the toaster oven instead of one and get it dark brown but not black.
Then I can scrape the surface with a knife, add extra butter and honey and you can't even taste it.
Clampman
For pete's sake, your talking bread mold, the old time source of penicillin; don't kill it by toasting, spread your condiments on raw bread and kiss (some of) your nose colds good bye...
Regards,
Rework
Edited 9/26/2002 11:00:53 PM ET by Rework
Also consider the recirculation effect of the air in the cabin. Ick. I was running around the coutry installing computer systems and was so run down that every time I had to fly I had a cold 3-4 days later. Started being nicer to me and it quit happening, but airliners and sick passengers can make you pretty sick. Also, depending on the environment, the substrates and the temps you may have picked up a bacteria instead of a mold.
So, now air can kill you too? Or not? What a shock! As I understand it, Life is the leading cause of Death. I was hoping when I opened this discussion that there was to be some ways listed to fight mold, or at least counteract it. For instance, I have an open air gazebo with a hip roof that has mold on all the underside of the ply decking. No matter how much I pressure wash and clean before painting, or how much Kilz I prime with, within six months the same exact spots of mold show through the new paint (enamel). What should have been done, and I stress this to anybody building in a hot climate, would have been to clean the plywood before installing, with a rag and laquer thinner. I always try to clean any P/T wood that is to be painted in this manner. Even enamel primer won't stick as well to these surfaces, and mold shows through. But guess what? Should I forget gloves, the Toluene in the laquer thinner will surely give me liver and kidney disease! I could shorten this whole process, and have less fear in my life if I just dropped the sheet (cleaned, of course) on my head. That would be the ultimate example of 'bleed-through'. Course, I'd be dead, with internal organs not worth donating, but I would no longer see mold spots in my gazebo! Effective? You bet!
"If left is wrong, then right is the only thing left, right?"
Your gazebo problems are probably with the spores; tough little suckers to kill. Maybe some of the new borax based cleaners hitting the market.
I understand extreme heat can be very effective against some molds - just burn it down and your problem is solved!
Do not believe the doc did the public a service if he stated no one should be concerned. Would have been better to state that causality has yet to be proven or disproven. There has been a correlation made between infant mortality from pulmonary hemorrhage and infection with this particular mold. In general, the weakest (the young, the old, and the immunocompromised (e.g: chemotherapy patients) are at higher risk.
Regards,
Rework
Hey guys, Just remember I am just the messenger here! I did not say I belive it! Here is my stand on all of this. First we build a home with moist lumber, make it air tight, fill it full of cabinets and carpet full of formaldehyde. Then we make the house air tight and some time clean our carpets and then burn a fossil fuel. So where does the outside fresh air come in? Why do infants get sick and everyone in the house has allergies and rashes. Then the baby crawls on the clean carpets all day, breaths all this bad air and carpet mould! Are we paying attention to all this indoor air pollution?. Why hasn't anyone else figured all this out.
I also believe that the doctors are full of #### in that report. But remember most all of the health related problems we have today stem from indoor air quality. We as contractors need to led the way on this and do something about it. Jim
"...some of it will kill you! Well, to my surprise today I just received an email from a site called "Housing Zone" an arm of Professional Builder magazine group, telling me the following."Doctors find NO evidence of mold as a toxic disease""
First of all there a lot of weasel words in the doctors statements.
Secondly, and most importantly, mold is a symptom of a poor environment, not the problem that causes the poor environment.
Environmental mold spores, present virtually everywhere, are not harmful to the average human. Some people are allergic-different issue. Concentrated mold is harmful to most as someone already pointed out by direct experience. But, due to poor or sloppy construction, poor maintanance and house keeping, low budget equipment selection, general misunderstanding of the purpose and role of ventilation (outside air) and miguided/incomplete attempts at energy consumption reduction, we have been building structures that create poor indoor environments, for the last thirty years.
I think the mold issue was siezed on by the media and a bunch of lawyers merely for more ratings and another reason to scam money from insurance companies. Just a bunch of BS we've been fed for their benefit.
I read recipes the same way I read science fiction. I get to the end and think, "Well, that's not going to happen."
I studied psychology and have been a Facility Manager for a healthcare facility for a number of years....I have the view that indoor air quality and mold are legitimate issues for concern; but I believe I have experienced how the issue can be blown out of proportion. I have experienced individuals who have made allegations that the airquality is responsible for there sickness.....while that may be, where do we draw the line for acceptable indoor air quality.....you are always going to have people allergic to certain things while others are not. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for progress and striving for excellence, but it comes at a cost, and right now, "purifying"air is expensive.
I have a new invention that will avoid a lot of costs for high energy air cleaning devices and help prevent a lot of indoor air pollution. I call it a window. It is difficult teaching homeowners to learn to use this high tech device tho'.Excellence is its own reward!
I hear you....unfortunately I can't go talking to my employees like that, I'd be inviting trouble, "disgruntled" employees, lawsuites and such......instead I say, "Really....oh my! We can't have that! We'll have to get an IAQ expert in here to sample the air. Yadda, yadda, etc."
".... where do we draw the line for acceptable indoor air quality."
The "line" has been drawn, rather clearly, for quite some time. ASHRAE 62 has defined what acceptable indoor air quality is, and how much ventilation is required for various types of occupancies, either on a per person basis or on a per square foot basis.
It heavily related to HVAC. Good design practices account for ventilation load and indoor humidty levels (just meeting the cooling load is the most common failure). Unfortunately, these standards are not always followed, or systems are poorly setup to meet the outside air demand, don't work well and then get modified to eliminate outside air.
For instance, if you had an office space of 1000 square feet, average commercial construction. By code (IMC 1996 or 2000), there will be 7 people per 1000 sf and each one requires 20 cfm of outside air (OA) for acceptable air quality. The cooling load without OA would be about 3-1/2 to 4 tons. If you used a 3-1/2 ton, standard system, 140 cfm OA on a 1400 cfm machine would be marginal at best. Most likely, the cheapest 3.5 ton machine would be used and the result is a 2 row coil and a muggy or a clammy envirnment would result on "off design" days. The occupants call the contractor that installed the system. He comes out and closes the outside air damper and everyone is happy....for a while. Then people start to develop irritations, allergies sensitivities, etc.. This is common in commercial and institutional facilities, though, not too common in houses.
I have seen this occur frequently. The solution is a system designed to meet the demand and properly condition the space including OA. This requires either an Energy Recivery Unit or more expensive coiling equipment with better coils. Seems simple, but most HVAC contrators and half of the HVAC "engineers" out there don't have a clue. The lowest priced equipment is seldom capable of the task, and the owners never know until its too late.
As a facilities manager at a health care facility, how do you monitor and control your indoor air quality? Do you know how much ventilation is required or how much you are supplying to the building(s)? What kind of filters do you use?
Edited 10/1/2002 8:37:32 AM ET by Tim
We have contracted with air quality company. They have balanced the systems in our newer buildings that HAVE OA intakes. We have a number of buildings and systems that either predate OA intakes or knowlegdable design and inspection professionals. I use an economical pleated filter (1") and change them on a regular schedule.?????
Bear in mind that the significant mold problems have arisen because of excessive moisture where it down't belong: inside walls, in crawlspaces, attics, etc.
The situatiuons I've seen where you really had to wonder were all where the building was improperly detailed: window flashing screwed up, EIFS imprperly installed, etc.
True...Construction does play a terribly large part of the villain. However,agaian, the houses are so air tight due to building practices/ requirements over the past 30 some years that now the issue is "ventilation". Weve found,as a large home building company in Canada, that much of the "issues" with mold,condensation, and be addressed by "educating " each new owner about their new home...Giveing them an idea how much moisture goes into the air via Natural gas appliances, Washing and drying a load of laundry, Showering and bathing, mopping tile floors, live house plants,trees,etc...And the first year effects of a new home drying out from foundation to moist studs in the wall. Rarely, with the thousands(literally) of homes we've built over the past 3-4 years, has mold been the result of construction-BUT, rather, the majority of time, is the result of poor owner management of relative humidity levels in the home. Seems so often we get concerned with so many superficial items in our new home-i.e. the paint blob over the basement door, the hairline crack in the basement floor, the scuffed-up shingle over the garage,- and forget that our house has a environment that we need to know how to control and maintain
Drew,
Excellant points!
I did construction for years and never got sick. I went back to school and got a job in a school where I have an office with NO windows and NO ventilation. Every year I got back to school in September, I get sick, really sick, like sinus infections which I never had before in my life. I found out that there is a mold test you can get which you send to a lab and sends you a reading to let you know where you are. As far as mold sickness being bull?? BULL, get yourself a nice 3 week sinus infection and let me know how you are doing>
"I found out that there is a mold test you can get which you send to a lab and sends you a reading to let you know where you are. "
There are such tests, but the accuracy and validity of them is being hotly debated.
(I'm not trying to suggest you're not being subjected to bad indoor air quality.)
Bob,
I actually picked up one of those tests yesterday. Getting the school to pay for the test and then do something about it is another thing.
Thanks though for the suggestion
Bill,
I would be curious to see the results of your test. Please post the results here if you don't mind. If you can, or can have someone do this for you, measurement of the relative humidity and carbon dioxide levels would also be very telling information concerning the IAQ of your work environment.
Bear in mind that mold is only one a symptom of a systematic problem that has many facets. If you or your school is interested in the total picture, we can discuss it further. (Having been chastised for offering unrequested advice, if you're not interested, I won't offer.)
Tim
Still waiting to hear if the school is going to pay for this test, my sense is no, so then I have to decide if I will do it myself. It has been 3 weeks and still feel like S---. Trying everything from conventional medicine to non to try to kick this but not sure what. Something in the building that is doing something to me but not sure what.
If you want the name of the lab. I can get that for you but I don't have that at hand now!
Appreicate the input
Bill
I was once told that the most painful things are
childbirth
burns
hemeroids
Having had two out of three, (let you guess which) I'll go on record that a good sinus infection can spin off a series of headaches that will put it above both of them.
I just got back from a mediacal conference with my wife. I audited a class there on asthma since I suffer mildly from it. They were saying lots of the same things that we are about molds. It's the 'in' disease of this decade, it seems. It is the biggest problem for children and the largest cause of absenteeism now. Mold spores are one of the primary triggers for attacks. And it can kill..
Excellence is its own reward!
Sorry to hear about the asthma. It's tough, or can be. I've got a nephew who's got it pretty bad. He has to be rather careful and mold will just do him in, his mom too. My sis had an attack on vacation one year because of a moldy ac unit in the hotel. We went to the beach but spent a lot of our time at the hospital with her.
Joe,
"We have a number of buildings and systems that either predate OA intakes or knowlegdable design and inspection professionals."
I,ve worked on schools that were built in the 1920's that have ample outside air provided. Knowledge of the need for ventilation has been around for a few hundred years. There are no buildings in this country that "predate" OA intakes. Only since the 70's and beyond did we get "stupid" enough to stop including ventilation in basic design. This is what I meant when I refered to "incomplete" attempts to conserve energy.
What criteria does the "air quality" company used to measure performance?
Get better filters.
What kind of health care facility do you manage?
Tim....You seem VERY knowledgable about this subject. You must be really smart. What do you do for a living..? For whatever reason the units installed in these buildings did not have fresh air intakes. Thanks very much for telling me what to do, I don't remember asking, but thanks anyway.
Personally, I think the overwhelming fear of mold is a bit like being terrified of water because people drown. Some people are allergic to molds; some molds have different compositions and affect people in different ways. However, there is no need to be overly terrified of mold in general. Remember pennicilin? As far as the idea that "mold in a house can kill you", so can water. So can dogs. So can knives. You should try to minimize the mold, obviously. And the increase in air tight construction means that there is more of a problem with humidity and mold if houses aren't built properly. If a person is that afraid of mold, I would assume that they don't drink wine or beer or eat bread.........
Having grown molds like "Pleurotus sajor-caju" in a small lab at home I know intimately how much stuff there is in the air. Open a sterile petri dish with nutrient agar for a few seconds in your living room and in a few days you can see lots of bacteria and mold colonies. The average "clean" living room has about 20,000 spores per cubic meter. If the dog walks by and shakes, then the spore load could increase a thousand fold easily.
Fungi in its many forms often cause allergic reactions in people. Many people can eat "Laitiporus sulfereous" and it is raved about in the field guides as a choice wild edible but it makes me break out in a cold sweat and retch when I eat it.
Clean air is the secret for successful mushroom cultivation so I learned a few tricks to keeping the air spore free when doing transfers. Turn off all fans ,motors that blow around air. Work right after a shower in the nude. Mist the surfaces and the air around the work area with distilled water. A ray of sun through the window should be absolutely free of dust. HEPA filters are expensive but clean more than 99% of the spores from the air. Use bleach or phenolic disinfectents on surfaces.
Then again there is no need to take great pains. It was recently shown that people that lived with animals and all that dust, funk and dodder that comes with them have less allergies and immune dysfunctions.
that last point brings up a theory that seems to be gaining some credibility. in our modern society we are so clean and antisceptic that we don't have the chance to be exposed to bacteria and fungi in relatively small quantities, and therefore don't build up resistance gradually. some theorize that this is why allergies and severe infectious outbreaks seem to be more and more common in the "developed" world; we aren't giving ourselves a chance to develop resistance naturally. i don't know how much credence to give the theory, but it certainly is interesting.
Cairo:
Haven't seen the recent studies, but they might be on to something. Strong school of thought that the Polio epidemics of the 20th century were partially caused by the "cleanliness is next to godliness" movement. The bug that causes the infection is found everywhere, and generations of children were exposed without the large scale epidemics occurring. Exposure does not necessarily lead to infection and/or disease. Is thought that preventing exposure while the children were young might actually have caused the future problems when the children eventually made contact with the bug...
Regards,
Rework