Replies

1. 
   CapnMac | Feb 01, 2009 10:07am | #1

   Could you elaborate just a bit more?

   Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
1. 
   JuanTheBuilder | Feb 01, 2009 10:16am | #2

   We give them a price for A, B and C. They come back to us and want us to do A, B, C, D and E for the same price, just because supposedly another contractor can do it for less or give them a lower quote. Another example is we give them a fair price and rather than approving the back and forth begins....

1. 
   ponytl | Feb 01, 2009 12:39pm | #3

   not the answer you want... but... it's a buyers market... 3 years ago they were happy IF you would agree to take their money and do the work... it was your show.. take it or leave it...

   now cash is king  if they have it.. they are the king..

   if you profited in the past 5 years this is the flip side... if you went to buy a new truck today would you expect a better deal with their lots full and no sales happen'n? or would you expect the same take it or leave it deal of 3 years ago?

   advice?  there are always ways to build in value and to add value...  your job is to find ways that add little cost to you.... but add value to them...  or let the other guy get the job...

   you will have your day again but for now..suck it up or walk

   won't be a popular answer here but just as i see it... even people with money aren't spending it right now

   p

   Edited 2/4/2009 8:20 pm ET by ponytl

2. 
   Frankie | Feb 01, 2009 03:34pm | #4

   Life sucks. Clients can suck even more.The basics - I can paint a room for $100, $1,000 or $10,000, but I can assure you they are 3 completely different paint jobs. So, when a client sets price as a determinant, assuming timing/ scheduling remains the same, they are telling me what job they want.This brings us to the pick any 2 of 3 equation - Price, quality, time. They can have any 2 - but not 3. The third is yours, for keeps.The best thing is to explain to them that your material costs are the same as the other contractor's. There may be a variable in labor cost, but he/ she is hiring from the same (local) labor pool. If their cost is so much cheaper, the client should be cautious and expect Change Orders and subsequent upcharges - after they are committed. And they will pay because they'll just want to get the contractor out and their house back.Tell them you are beginning the relationship straight-up and all cards on the table. They need to decide who they can work with and under what terms. I have found that most (not all) clients select a contractor based on the relationship they feel is in the cards. Yes, price is a factor, but people want to like with whom they are doing business. As for the other clients who believe that "the difference in price, even if it is miscalculated, they'll still save $$$" aren't worth working for. Take the loss upfront and sit at home rather than working your a$$ off and ending up with less than with what you started.Frankie

   Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.

   Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.

   Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.

   Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh

3. 
   mmoogie | Feb 01, 2009 05:18pm | #5

   I'm always tempted to ask them if they are making less at their job this year than last year. Another rejoinder is that you can loose money less strenuously watching TV at home. Figure out what you need to make to have a profitable business and stick to it as long as you can. If that turns out to be too long, you can always start charging less, but I think a lot of this is people trying to take advantage of the downturn even thought they are not personally affected by it.Steve

   Edited 2/1/2009 9:19 am by mmoogie

1. 
   BillHartmann | Feb 01, 2009 05:41pm | #8

   "ask them if they are making less at their job this year than last year"Many are..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

1. 
   mmoogie | Feb 04, 2009 07:21am | #9

   >>Many are.<<None of my clients are. And most of them make a lot more than I do, and have a lot better benefits, and own more property than I do. When they start crying poverty, I don't have a lot of internal patience for it. But I do my best to be sympathetic. One of my favorite lines is "I know it's expensive. I don't know how anyone can afford to get work done on their house. I know I can't afford to hire me..."

4. 
   MikeSmith | Feb 04, 2009 10:17pm | #12

   before i read the other responses:1) never let them see you sweat
   2) you priced it to do the work and cover your business plan
   3) these "other" prices may, or may not ... exist4) for some reason these people wanted YOU to price it... you gave them a fair priceyou don't have to say" take it or leave it"
   but that is what they have to understand... in order for you to stay in business you have to make a profit... the "profits " also have to cover your "losses"if you cut your price it demonstrates that there was something to cut... so the customer was right to haggle ..... OR.. you intend to take the job at a loss and "make it up in volume"better to stay home and play with the kids than to take a job at a losslet the "other " guy take the job at a loss... he won't have a satisfying experience... neither will the customer... but he will be occupied , while you're available to do something for someone who wants you and will payMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   JuanTheBuilder | Feb 04, 2009 11:29pm | #13

   Mike,

   Thank you for your time. Great answer and great advice. It strikes me you really understand the market and what is taking place out there.

   Thanks again.

2. 
   brownbagg | Feb 01, 2009 05:21pm | #6

   put everything in writing, including change orders
3. 
   oldfred | Feb 01, 2009 05:23pm | #7

   This article was in Today's paper

   http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=235964&ac=Home

4. 
   user-233180 | Feb 04, 2009 07:21pm | #10

   As someone who is on the other end of this, a home owner in need of some construction work, I can fully understand this way of thinking. There is only so much money for a particular job that I need to have done and it's a "reasonable" amount for the work. In other words, I understand that my contractor has a "bottom line" that he needs to make any money on the project, but he also needs to understand that the money available isn't infinite.

1. 
   catfish | Feb 04, 2009 08:01pm | #11

   Then you can pick 2 of the 3. Cheap, fast, or good. Most contractors give you a price they can make money. Thats why they are there.

2. 
   JuanTheBuilder | Feb 04, 2009 11:35pm | #14

   Friend,

   Thank you for your time and your response.

    I understand your point but the problem can be that an unscrupulous contractor will tell you what you want to hear just to get in... unfair to you and good guys out there. Good work, timely response and proffesionalism costs...

   Thanks again.

3. 
   observer | Feb 04, 2009 11:54pm | #16

   I think most of us in the business are very clear on the idea that there isn't an infinite amount of money available to fund a job but do understand about what the actual costs of that job are.On the other hand, a homeowner who doesn't really understand what any particular job entails isn't going to have a very accurate perception of what a "reasonable" amount of money to cover the cost of that job is.You'll have to forgive those of us who choose to rely on covering the actual costs of the job by accepting only those jobs that will pay a sufficient amount rather than letting what you have budgeted based on your limited knowledge determine what the costs should be.Get a couple of prices from contractors you can establish to your own satisfaction are competent. If you can afford what they quote as the price for the job, you can afford to do the job. If not, it's out of your range. If you get a lowball bid and accept it, you also accept the risks that accompany lowball bids and have no one else to blame if it goes sour. Just remember that competent, honest tradesmen aren't going to lowball you because they simply don't need to. They'll just move on to someone else who will pay fair value for the value received.

1. 
   BryanSayer | Feb 05, 2009 02:07am | #17

   Does your actual costs involve having a master plumber dig ditches? How about having a master carpenter do demolition and cleanup?Costs vary for a lot of reasons, including people who pad the bill with "extra" material, or use more expensive material because they get more markup on material than the do in labor.Compare the cost of piping radiators with copper versus black iron. The company owner wants to pipe them in copper which costs more than iron and they get a bigger profit on the markup. Iron may make more sense to the homeowner (if say they have iron radiator and iron boiler) which will take more labor but less costly material.So I don't accept the "it costs what it costs" argument. There are alternate ways of doing things, and some will be cheaper to the purchaser.

1. 
   jonblakemore | Feb 05, 2009 02:45am | #18

   But what if you have a laborer digging ditches and doing demo & cleanup?And what if the contractor specified iron piping instead of copper because it the most cost effective?I understand what you're saying, but at some point you just reach the limit for how much money you can save.And I haven't even touched on the question of labor allocation. For instance, we have a bathroom coming up next week. We will have skilled workers doing demolition and I bid accordingly. Why? Well, we could bring in laborers for the 4 hours of demo and cleanup, but what about the rest of the day?The carpenters will be able to transition seamlessly from demo to the minor framing that is needed. Maybe it's not the most efficient, but as Mike Smith would say, it's what it costs for US to do the work. 

   Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

1. 
   mmoogie | Feb 05, 2009 03:14am | #21

   >>We will have skilled workers doing demolition and I bid accordingly. Why? Well, we could bring in laborers for the 4 hours of demo and cleanup, but what about the rest of the day?<<I came to this conclusion a long time ago. Better to hire skilled people that can be useful all day long and look after themselves.Steve

2. 
   observer | Feb 05, 2009 03:13am | #20

   Of course costs vary as does quality; hence I suggested getting several estimates from known competents to be able to filter that out and to also force the homeowner to come up with some sort of specs of what they want. I'm suggesting that when I quote, that is what I will do the work for no matter what anyone else thinks would be an appropriate price. Any less and I won't unless the scope is changed to reflect a lower price. If you can't afford it or don't think the job is worth that price, that doesn't mean my price is unreasonable or too high. Homeowner talks with three of me and then he has a pretty good indication of what the real cost is. That's when he knows what "reasonable" is and only then can he decide whether it's worth it and if he can afford it. The only thing taking the attitude that I'm trying to rip him off gets him is a spot on the bottom of the quote pile.

   Edited 2/4/2009 7:15 pm by observer

5. 
   runnerguy | Feb 04, 2009 11:49pm | #15

   PonyTL pretty much summed it up.

   It's a buyers market. Back when everyone was busy it was a sellers market. Nobody then had a second thought about customers accepting completly over the top prices because that's what it took to get the work done.

   Runnerguy

6. 
   frenchy | Feb 05, 2009 02:50am | #19

   Juan

     You need to learn how to negotiate.  The art of negotiation will show you how to eliminate that problem..