I’m building a new house. I was paying my builder every two weeks. My builder has only one payment left to go, and from my estimation, there is much more work left than that last payment will cover. To make things worse, he had a small crew of two men, and both of them took other jobs last month. He just hired a kid out of school, who he said is not working out well. He’s taken on another job in town that he was under contract to start in June, and now only shows up one day a week on my job. I’ve spoken to him about it because I’m concerned my project will drag on for months now. He said he’s trying to hire an experienced man, but hasn’t had any luck so far.
Our written contract actually gives him a year to complete the work, but verbally he anticipated about 17 weeks. He started in January, and several days were lost to bad winter weather, which is completely understandable. We are already at week 24. I can’t start hiring inside subs until the exterior is closed in, so I’ve started doing some work myself – but I only have evenings and weekends to work on it.
If I hire another builder at this point I’m going to go way over budget – unless you know anyone who will apply 3100 Square feet of cedar shingles, frame three stairways, install five windows, three doors, and two attic vents, frame 6 interior walls on two floors, and build a deck, all for $8000! In retrospect, the payment schedule should have been tied to construction milestones, not calendar time.
He said he’s not bailing out on me, but if I wait for my man to get his act together I anticipate it’s going to take many months. I’m worried his contract allows him to string me out until January 2009, or he might just bail out at any moment because he got most of the cash already and now stands to lose money if he keeps going on my project. Only his conscience and character would keeping him here, as far as I can tell.
Anyone been through this before? If you were me, what would you do?
Replies
I'd be very worried if I was you especially if that 8k is supposed to supply materials too.
Your options look bleak but it's possible that your numbers might not be as bad as they seem and you might be better off to find another carpenter to work with. Start getting other estimates. Get them in writing and get them detailed including payment and schedule.
You're going to need all this for the lawsuit anyways. If you do things right, you might be able to negotiate a settlement that will only cost you ten grand or so.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Was anyone keeping track of progress versus monies paid? If he was supplying the reports then you should feel misled. If it was your responsibility to keep track of the real progress, well, you've probably learned an important lesson about project management.
My guess is if he finds you are looking around for another guy to finish the job, he will bail on you, or maybe even complain that _you_ aren't abiding by the terms of the contract. Heck, he could go on vacation for three months and still be within the terms of the deal you agreed to.
Time to speak with a lawyer and see what your legal options are...and if there are any teeth in your contract.
Your lawyer will probably offer to write a letter to your contractor for you, explaining what the contractor has to do to fulfill his responsibilities and avoid expensive litigation.
Letters written by lawyers are the least expensive and often most effective way to get matters of this nature resolved quickly and respectfully. But once you have put the matter in your lawyer's hands, you must take all your cues from him/her in dealing with the contractor...follow all your lawyer's advice exactly.
In other words, "no more Mr. Nice Guy."
It sounds like your payment schedule and completion schedule are both very much in the contractor's favor. I would be embarrassed if I asked a customer of mine to sign something like that. Consult your attorney. If the contractor brought the contract for you to sign you probably have some traction here. No one will do the work you listed for $8000. The shingling alone would be twice that much if I did it.
when you signed the contract 52 weeks was just fine.
why is 24 weeks too late all of a sudden?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I agree...the time isn't the factor. The guy seems to be way ahead of schedule by my calculations. The problem is the money. We all know you can't squeeze blood out of a rock and this guy doesn't sound like hes a good bet for being able to finish. BUT...... If he was able to get a contract signed like this, he might be able to do it again...so he'll end up finishing this job on someone elses money. Sooooo..... the key to getting the best deal out of this deal is either finessing through to the end just taking the lumps right now and get someone else. I watched a house take 2.5 years next to me. It should have been done in six months and maybe two more if they had problems. The carrying costs alone on that 800k construction money ran the guy 100k. He would have been much better off dumping the slow builder after year one and "losing" 50k in the deal and still ended up paying the same money...but would get into the house a year and a half earlier. This guy has all the handwriting on the wall that he needs. He might save himself a lot of time and money if he cuts his losses right now. It's a tough choice...try to finesse this other guy or just go right after him hard with everything in the book. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yeah ... coupla choices and I'm thinking one isn't sue the contractor.
he hasn't done anything wrong yet.
might have all the intentions in the world on finishing.
might not.
might have the best intentions ... and still not finish.
but ... how do ya sue? He's got 28 weeks left ... we're not even halfway there yet!
either hold tight and hope ... or cut yer losses and add expenses.
might even talk to a lawyer ... but thinking a lawsuit is good money after bad at this point. I'm wondering how the "one year" fits into the contract ... is it written or was it implied ... or a boilerplate catch all.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
might even talk to a lawyer ... but thinking a lawsuit is good money after bad at this point.
Yup. While I don't agree with the GC's business practice.... it's all legal. The guy hasn't broken the contract. The GC hasn't screwed up.... the HO did... by signing that crazy #### contract. Buyer's remorse.
Here's what I don't get:
Dude says the contract payment schedule calls out payments due on a time basis instead of progress payments. And we're in the 24th week. With more money to go. But he only thought it was gonna take 17 weeks total?!?! If the payment schedule says $XXXX.XX every two weeks.....he's just gotta do the math to see it ain't gonna be done in 17 weeks, right?
Something don't add up. Me thinks there's more to the story.
But either way.... the GC may be slow.... but he hasn't done anything 'wrong'. The contract is everything. I hate when people sign contracts and then try to wiggle out of them one way or the other. What good is a contract if everyone is always looking for a way to squirm out of it when they figure out that they either didn't do their homework or have changed their mind? Stupid don't get you a bye.
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Yup.
signed contract is a signed contract.
I do my best to stick by it.
lots more HO's wanna "review" it than I do!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
There really isn't much more to the story, but here is some clarification.
The payments were originally set up on a two week schedule over an 18 week period (not a year) so that by the end of about 18 weeks (9 payments) the entire project would be paid for, and the assumption was that the work would be completed at that time as well.
During the winter a lot of days were lost to bad weather, so payments were not every two weeks, but were related to actual days spent on the job, which ended up closer to every three weeks. I would usually ask my builder when he needed a payment and make it at that time. Things were moving along well at that time.
I pay all materials from directly from my accounts at the lumberyards, so the payments only cover labor.
The 1 year period on the contract was boilerplate. I didn't challenge it at the time because we spoke many times about an approximate 18 week schedule, and I tend to take a persons word and trust that they will abide by it. Call that stupid if you want, but having 18 weeks written in the contract would make no differnce at this point, as far as I'm concerned. Sure, it would give me something to hang onto legally, but I don't want to sue the man, I just want him to finish the job.
I'm flexible, but I do want continuous progress toward completion and now it is only one day a week I see him here at best. Yes, according to the contract it's totally legal. Say I give him until January 2009 and he still doesn't finish it. I'll be in the same boat but even worse off for having lost all that time.
The bottom line is I've got to have an honest sit-down with my builder and hash this all out. I posted here to get realistic suggestions of what to do so that both myself and my builder can at least be satisfied with the outcome.
Thanks,
Paul
Thats exactly what I thought was happening. The way I see it, the man has no choice. He can't work every day on your job anymore because he won't be able to eat or put fuel in his truck. You and he miscalculated the pay early in the game and now it is what it is. If I were you, I'd beg for a minimum 25 hours or something like that. Tell him you expect to see him 18 hours on the weekend and 16 hours on Monday. Oh...that's more hours..but that still leaves him Tues through Fri to earn grocery money somewhere else. That's really your only chance at successful resolution. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Where did the money go?
18 weeks to complete a house?
HO bent over and screwed himself real good, but not with out some help.
This contractor has a ton of his money that is not in the house.
He needs to find a witness to this verbal agreement and go for his throat.[email protected]
Doesn't sound like the "GC" was supposed to deliver a turn-key job. It 'sounds' like a shell, exterior finishes, and not much else. I may be mistaken though.View Image
You are correct.
Makes me wonder all the more why the HO would sign a contract for 52 weeks.
And there is still the small detail of what seems to be a lot of missing coin.
Based on the posts here anyway and the fact that the "GC" is not going to be able to finish with what is due him.
Sad story for the HO.
The GC must be a real piece of cake.[email protected]
I contracted for framing, installation of exterior windows and doors, trim, exterior shingles, roofing, plus a deck. A weathertight shell only.
I signed a 52 week contract for an 18 week job because I wasn't paying attention.
Paul
Just curious... but is he supplying materials as well?View Image
I contracted for framing, installation of exterior windows and doors, trim, exterior shingles, roofing, plus a deck. A weathertight shell only.
Am I wrong in thinking this would take your crew only 2-4 weeks?
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Edited 6/18/2008 11:22 am by JohnT8
I appreciate the vote of confidence John..... but if it's the house in Mike Smith's drawing..... I'd guess 10 to 12 weeks. I'd need to see the framing plans, the lot, and the exterior trim package first though.View Image
labor only.
$8K outstanding.
Guessing at the shingles ... not even sure if they're roof or wall ...
doesn't look to be more than 4 to 6 weeks worth of work left.
actually looks closer to 3 or 4 weeks.
reads from here there's more than enough money left to "entice" someone to come back and honor their contract.
windows/ doors in a day ...
deck in a coupla days ...
partitions in a day ...
etc.
and 31 sq of anything ain't enough to worry about.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
>>and 31 sq of anything ain't enough to worry about.
There's been plenty of discussion here about the time it takes to install cedar sidewall shingles. Average seems to be about 1 square per man per day. 31 days labor, maybe the GC charges $45/hour per man, that works out to over $11,000.
Yeah, that's about what we averaged on a job this past winter.... 'bout a sq a day per man. If it's cut up.... you get cut up.....quick. Woven corners and windows slow things up big time. I was just sitting here thinking whether or not I could do the shingles alone for the leftover $8K. I think I'd rather do all his other stuff instead for that price.View Image
This is as far as I've read, but.......However you two arranged it......you allowed the dude to get ahead of the game far enough that you placed yourself basically at his mercy........NOT a good thing to do.....you put yourself in a "now what?" situation. You better hope this guy has a conscience........cause everybody who directs you towards a lawyer and court etc........is inviting you to yet another nitemare, an expensive one to boot........good luck.Bottom line..pay the framer after inspection in full......pay the subs after their inspection.....Any decent sub understands the way it works then it's easy...
I like the idea of paying after the inspections. Thanks for the tip!
There's no point in worrying about the mistakes that have been made along the way, now I'm just focused on finishing the job. I don't think lawyers need to be involved.
Anyhow, I've always wanted to design and build my own house. I spent three years reading about architecture and created the design myself. I then read several books about building your own home. I get lots of compliments on it (in spite of the unfinished condition) and already have several people who want me to design homes for them.
Now that I've started to do some of the actual physical work (vs. paperwork) I find that my state of mind is improving. I like working with my hands, always have. Plus I can control the quality. So, things are not as bad as they seem. I'll get to live out my dream, even if it takes me a long time working nights and weekends. I don't have to be in a rush to finish, there is no deadline. I still need to hire help, but at least I now know to structure the payment schedule to the work completed and inspected.
I completely gutted and rebuilt the house I live in now. I did the entire project by myself: demolition work, moved and rebuilt walls, redid siding, resurfaced flooring, installed new flooring in the kitchen and bathroom, updated wiring, all new plumbing, installed the heating system and ductwork, insulation, electrical, plus I designed and built a new kitchen with custom cabinets, built a new bathroom and installed all new appliances and light fixtures. It took me one summer, nights and weekends. I only hired a roofer, painter, and a plaster guy. I did the whole project on my 832 SQ. FT. cape for $20K, back in 1996. I have a great sense of satisfaction from completing that project. I did it before, I can do it again.
Paul
Bottom line..pay the framer after inspection in full......pay the subs after their inspection.....
Unless I was building a shed for you and knew you I would never agree to work under those arrangments. I'm not in business to finance the labor on your projects. Say I frame that house in Mike's picture.... I'm there for 8 or 9 weeks. My payroll alone is going to push 45K. If you think I'm going to float that then you've lost your mind. Even worse.... I'd have to float it for about a month after I'm gone and onto the next job! Here in MA anyway, the framing doesn't get inspected until AFTER the plumbing, HVAC, and electrical roughs are in. So that means my getting paid is dependant on three other subs, of which I have no affiliation, keeping their schedules and passing their inspections.... and not f'in up any of my work in the process.
Fuggetaboutit. I don't like to float more than a week of my crew's labor. Maybe two if we've got history. And if I've never worked with you then I'm front loading the payment schedule to make sure that when I walk away I'm paid up for the work completed.View Image
Ok, I'm out of my mind.......the inspection schedule is the same here.I always framed/finished the houses I built on my own so it wasn't a problem..........When I was a super..The framing sub (up to and including sheeting the roof) would not be paying for materials........and his labor (used to be somewhere like 2.50 sq.').would be paid in full after inspection.That seems to me to be quite reasonable....that every sub receives payment after his work is inspected. I mean if a guy is strapped I would get him some up front money I suppose, but NEVER would I allow him to get ahead of the curve........unless he was my kid or something.
When I was a super..The framing sub (up to and including sheeting the roof) would not be paying for materials........and his labor (used to be somewhere like 2.50 sq.').would be paid in full after inspection.
That seems to me to be quite reasonable....
Reasonable for you..... totally unreasonable for the framer. Think about it. The average frame for me runs about 50K.... labor only. (the days of $2.50/ft are ancient history... alot of my frames literally run 10 times that much) You're asking me to front you that 50K. And.... say your plumber blows you off for two weeks. Now I've got to wait another two weeks to get paid. Or what if your electrician fails his inspection... or you get into some sort of a beef over money with him and the project stalls? Those all sound like your problem.... but now you're making them my problem because it's creating a cash crunch for me. That sounds reasonable to you?
I'm not talking about asking you to 'float me a couple bucks'. That's pretty self-righeous don't ya think? I've got plenty of working capital..... that's not the point. The point is that I'm not in business to finance anyone else's job. And that's what you're asking the framer to do.
Anywhere else..... if you don't pay right away, you get charged interest... doesn't matter if it's the car dealership or the lumber yard. If you're working with other people's money then it's gonna cost you. Why should that draw sit in your bank account collecting interest (or not yet drawn and not accumulating interest) instead of mine? I already earned it didn't I?
Not to mention the old "out of sight, out of mind" thing. You're done with me and running tight money wise finishing your project. What incentive do you have to pay me? And what leverage do I have to get you to pay me? None and none.
I'd float you the first deck. Then I get a check. Or you don't get any walls.
I understand the concern about passing an inspection, and that's what 'hold back payments' (in my contract payment schedule) are for. You hold onto a reasonable percentage of the total cost until it passes inspection. But not the whole shooting match. That ain't even close to being fair. With a holdback payment you've got some cash left to fix something that doesn't pass... and I've got incentive to get back there and fix it. But... for what it's worth... I've never failed a framing inspection anyway. :)
Would it be fair if the HO that you're GCing for didn't pay you a red cent for the house you built them until you got your occupancy green light?
I'm not trying to pick on you or harp on you in general... I'm just trying to set the record straight. A post like yours is read by more people then when know. That's simply NOT the way it's done... at least not around here. And I wouldn't be in business very long if that was the way it is. So I'm just sticking up for my trade and trying to set the record straight by shining a light on how that situation looks from my perspective. For a one week job, that might be an acceptable arrangement. But for the great majority of my own projects (all framing) it'd be a totally unfair arrangement.View Image
I agree with you and will argue it is even more important for the small the company, but I will point out one thing. A lumber yard or other supplier, including all my subs, submit the bill at the end of a billing cycle (generally between the 25th. and the end of a month.
Then I get 30 days to pay before interests starts to accumulate. May not be the same everywhere but I bet it is pretty standard. Breaking the job into billable segments in your proposal is only reasonable and fair. You also have the right to charge interest after the pre agreed upon payment date passes.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We're talking different things .........average house in average allotment frames up in about three weeks or less.........lumber house has the material on the job site......framing crew shows up after block......starts with sill plate finishes with sheeting roof.....mechanicals etc.......It don't take that damn long to build an average house and get it to the inspection phase.........You talking about framing a 12000 sq' mansion of course things change......You get paid in full after rough inspection on a 250 to 300 thousand dollar house.......don't like it...don't take the job......Our framing crews worked year round.Edited 6/20/2008 7:08 am ET by jjwalters
Edited 6/20/2008 7:09 am ET by jjwalters
Our framing crews worked year round.
Congratulations. I've yet to meet one that doesn't. But at $2.50 a foot your crews better be working year round. Twice around if they can.
And for the record... I've never framed a 12,000 sq ft mansion... so no... that's not what I'm talking about. 2500 sqft colonial and I still get a check after the first deck.
You get paid in full after rough inspection on a 250 to 300 thousand dollar house.......don't like it...don't take the job......
I don't... and I wouldn't. It's a rotten way to to run a business. There is absolutely no reason in the world to hold onto an entire frame's worth of labor because of an inspection. Shoot, if you're 1/2 a GC you oughta be able to tell if it's gonna pass or not on your own anyway... especially if it's just a little house like you say. But I guess if you need an inspector to tell you what's right and what's wrong then maybe I could see why you need to cover your butt every which way but Sunday.
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Brian, you are lucky to live where you do. Around here, you normaly have to wait until you are finished, bill 15 or 30 days later you recieve your check. On large houses or projects, you can get progress checks.
I think there are different rules for different parts of the country. It's funny, I only live 200 miles from you.
Oh I believe him dude! I just think it's lousy.... and I'm trying to shed some light on the absurdity of that arrangement. If everyone just says, "Aw shucks, that stinks" and accepts it cuz 'that's the way we always do it' then nothing ever changes. I don't doubt for a second that jobs are run that way.... I just think it's totally wrong. The framer trying to get paid is at the mercy of 3-5 other subs holding up their end of the deal and keeping schedule. Not to mention that after the inspection the framer has zero leverage left if the GC decides he wants to not pay his bills.
I can't understand why just holding a portion of the payment back until inspection in unacceptable? To call that other arrangement 'reasonable' just doesn't compute with me. From where I'm standing, it's anything but reasonable.
At this point I'm totally hijacking the OP's thread though. So I'll let it die. I'm just flabbergasted that everyone thinks this arrangement is cool.
EDIT: One more thing! LOL.... 95% of my time spent chasing money.... is spent chasing that last check. Cuz once I'm out of sight it seems all too easy for GC's to 'forget' about that last payment. Like it must just be a formality or something! I can't imagine having to chase builders around for entire frame worth of labor. I guess that's whats bothering me so much about this.
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Edited 6/20/2008 5:48 pm ET by dieselpig
We don't wait for inspection, just homebuilders schedule for payment.
Sometimes it sucks, but most homebuilders have a set schedule for payment. We do have 2 builders that show up on the last day with a check, awesome. The biggest problem is with wannabe builders, they don't know that all the subs talk and know each other. I think on more than one occasion that has forced a builder out of business.
I can't understand why just holding a portion of the payment back until inspection in unacceptable? (quote)This is NOT unacceptable.......it's quite common. I did it myself with mechanicals etc........but the bigger guys like it the same way every time and as long as they pay in a reasonable time?........You're looking for demons here, it's just different ways of doing business.
I'm not looking for demons at all. I just don't agree that it's a fair practice. View Image
I'm going to chirp in here on Diesels side. But...I'm not necessarily against JJ either. I'm more inclined to agree with Mike.....everything is negotiable, including the draw and payment schedule. In MI, I've never agreed to wait for full payment until after the rough inspection. We normally agreed to wait for about $500 for rough inspection. But....everything's negotiable.Under normal conditions, the builders just want some leverage to get the framer back for the routine punchlist. The framer agrees. It's a mutually acceptable arrangement. I once was going a custom frame for somewhere around 40k. The price was set but the PM for the owner asked for a retainer of 5k until it passed rough. I refused. I was willing to walk away. My answer to him was "when we are done framing it, you will be able to walk around. If you know anything about building, it will be obvious to you that it is framed correctly and you will know that there isn't 5k worth of work left. At the most, we might end up with 4 hours on a punchlist if the other trades destroy something but 4 hours does not equate to 5k." So, in that negotiation, I was simply not agreeing to such a hefty retainage. Neither does Diesel. I don't blame him. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Now remember this old boy I'm talking about built a lot of houses, one right after the other and he used the same guys so it wasn't such a big deal cause it was a smooth operation.........and the money was thereimpressed the hell out of me when I took the job......I woulda subbed for him........and I'm the most independent person I know.
I framed a lot of houses and didn't get paid a nickel till they were done. But, I never agreed to wait for the full amount till rough inspection either. I'm not saying I wouldn't...I'm just saying no one every asked me. If someone asked me, there would have to be some very good cash in the deal to make me get interested in it. So, I'll ask Diesel: Would you wait till after rough inspection if the going price for a frame was $8 per square foot, but this builder was paying $12 per square foot, for the same house? The point is that everything is negotiable and usually the framers aren't making enough profit to carry anyone for any amount of time. If the numbers are good enough, we all would carry someone for 90 days plus the inspection time! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The short answer is 'yes' I would. I like making money.
BUT.... and it's a big but....... I'm not a gambler either. I work too hard for my money to risk not receiving it. So if that situation were offered to me I'd want a crystal clear explanation from the GC as to why this arrangement is one that he would be interested in. And I'd be skeptical. Very skeptical. And then I'd start doing my homework..... all it would take is one single sad story from another framer or supplier about how this guy welched to make me walk away.
There are GC's that I work for that I do let 'get into me' for more than my one week's labor rule. A lot more sometimes. There are two builders that come to mind right away. I've been doing work for both of them for about 5 years now. Both of them do mainly remodels/additions. And both of them have 'crews' of one sort or another. So sometimes the work is slightly blurred between my scope and theirs. Their guys may do none of the work at all... or they may do the demolition, a lot of the clean up, maybe install the windows, maybe do the punch-out at the end, etc. For these guys the deal is that I invoice weekly and get paid the next day. But, I frequently don't invoice at all with these guys until the end of the job. Especially if it's a one or two week job. But I know, for a fact, that I could invoice at any given time and have a check in my hands in 24 hrs or so. And just knowing is usually enough for me. And I don't think it's any coincidence that both of these guys used to be framers until they 'grew up' and became GC's. They just get it.
And some houses just go too quickly to break the payments down into construction 'milestones'. Say I do a 2500 sqft colonial with attached 2 car. Trim package is just prep for vinyl siding. That's a two weeker for us. If there were history, I probably wouldn't take any draws... but I'd expect to walk on that 10th day with a check in my hand.... less maybe $1000 as a holdback. Maybe a little more if the basement floor hadn't been poured yet and I have to go back and do the stairs. If there wasn't history, I'd expect 1/2 the money at the end of that first week. And the balance (less the holdback) the day we pack up the trailer.
I'm only half a moron Blue. I understand why JJ thinks his arrangement is 'perfectly reasonable'. I would too if I were on his side of that deal! But I ain't. So it ain't. :)
I just hate getting beat for money Jim. I hate it. It burns me up, tears me up, and eats me up. There's one guy out there that beat me for $2000 on a $10,000 frame. That's 20%!! I built a house for this guy for free! This was a year and a half ago now and it still makes my blood boil. I'm honestly nervous about how I'm going to react next time I run into him. I'm pretty sure it'll get physical. That's how angry it makes me. You know the drill..... you know how hard we work.... you know the conditions we work under.... and you know that we do it for less money than we should be doing it for. So every penny matters to me. It's food off my table. It's an extra mortgage payment that I now have to make. It's an extra forklift payment. Three truck payments. Two new telescopes! A vacation on the Cape.
Bottom line is that once the work is done... in my mind... it's no longer 'your' money. It's mine. And I want it. And the sooner the better. Cuz some of these guys get to thinking..... and not paying starts to look a whole lot better than paying. And I don't need any more pages on my record!View Image
I take it personal too.If somebody gets to me for two thousand, that is a week or so of my LIFE.That is time of my living stolen from me.That is a part of a murder he has done to me.And I believe in self defense.Not long ago, a customer was holding ten grand up on me. At the same time I had one trying to re-negotiate a final $4700 into a $2000 payment. It was hurting and i was getting riled up every time I thought about it.Finally got it, but ....That's the first time I have ever been out that much and haven't lost but about seen hundred buck my whole working life.At the same time,I see some of what JJ was saying. I worked a subdivision in CO with ranches and small colonials where the framing sub put up one ranch every week and the two storey ones in less than two. He just kept moseying down the street. No waiting for money. Each time I roofed one, I went to the office with a bill and got a check the same day when the super was in, next day if he was gone. Some times, he would ask for the bill before I finished and tell me the check would be waiting at the office. He knew how to treat subs, respect and cash flow, no unprofessional delays - when he said it was ready, by golly, it was really ready for me.Mike said it best - once the relationship is there, it can all be negotiated. You have got the negotiating done already. Most framers in other places where they hold it all back can negotiate for draws and partials too if they are good enough to be worth keeping. But if a hack sub wants front money, he will be replaced pronto.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I knew the answer would be yes because it's the right answer LOL! The key would be to have the legal protection, in the form of the right contract with the proper security attached to it. Think like a bank...they loan lots of money too but they make the borrowers jump through lots of hoops. Framers like me are notorious for skipping those details. We usually don't have the time but you could have used your $2000 that you donated to the builder and gave it to a lawyer to write up a tight contract. A good course of action would be to take the next $2k that will be stolen from you and give it to a lawyer and ask him to write you up a tight sub-contract proposal that will help you avoid losing the next 2k. Our proposal/change order has enough fine print on the back that it would fill 8 pages of normal font. Somewhere in there is a clause that gives us the right to collect the defaulted payments, with interest and they get to pay our collection costs. People that intend to pay aren't threatened by those clauses. Some builders are....they should be avoided. I'm guessing that a lien wasn't filed on that 2k. Liens are powerful tools but no tool is useful when it's left in the box. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The funny thing is......and this happens in a lot of discussions in here.......we sound as if we are shooting from opposite sides of the creek when we are, in reality in the same trench............what I'm relating is a stint I did as a Super for a large local builder. I have never seen a building company that worked worked so smoothly and effeciently......Personally I paid guys when they wanted some money, I am NOT a business man (my partner was) but...when I subbed a frame or finish I acted very much like Diesel and never allowed a GC in my back pocket.......but as in the case with the guy who started this thread, I never expected something for nothing either.The End.......
frammer...
<<<< think there are different rules for different parts of the country. It's funny, I only live 200 miles from you.>>>there are no rules... if you are a sub,,, the rules are whatever you work out with your gconce you have a relationship... you just have to negotiate better termsif i want to use a particular sub.. i structure it into my payment schedule so i can keep him /her happyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree, but we work for about 8 or 9 contractors, part of the reason, we don't cry about payment. Once in a while we cry if they miss a payment, then a visit to the office is in order!
Our framing crews worked year round.(quote) In an allotment (which the builder in question usually developed) they framed one average maybe 2500sq'house and then moved to the next and so on.......(this was about ten years ago, not in today's market)........say ave. three weeks per house.....house sold 250 to 300.........pretty smooth operation....no excessive bitching It's a rotten way to to run a business. (quote)This is heading down that path I refuse to go so I won't take it any further cept to say you're awful judgemental of a process that worked quite well for the builder as well as for the subs cause he kept the same guys as long as I was there. I'm gonna call my son just for the hell of it to see what framers are getting these days cause you got me curious........but the Amish guys around here I'm pretty sure aren't much more 2.50 +extras,..... but I could be wrong cause like I said when I built for myself we did all the framing/finish ourselves and we built Lindal Cedar Homes...suedo post and beam ...so the framing etc was figured differently.......regardless I didn't just fall off the turnip truck and I know there are many ways to build stuff.......so if you can get 50,000.00 to frame a 2500sq' house more power to you....I'll take your word for it.
I didn't just fall off the turnip truck and I know there are many ways to build stuff.......so if you can get 50,000.00 to frame a 2500sq' house more power to you....I'll take your word for it.
That's not what I said. My point was that it doesn't matter what size the project is.... 2500 sqft colonial OR a $50K+ custom..... my payment schedule remains the same (or similar).
Yes... I am judgemental. I am judgemental because you feel (as the guy holding the money) that holding all the money back until inspection is "reasonable". And I'm trying to get you to see that from my point of view (the guy holding nothing) it's simply not "reasonable" at all. It may be what accepted in your area. But I hardly think it's reasonable.
What would be so unreasonable about you paying ALL of the money up front then? You expect the framer to trust you.... can't ya trust him? If I buy a car... I have to pay up front or finance it before I get the car. Shoot, if I buy something off of Ebay from a complete stranger I still have to pay for it before I get it. Of course I don't agree that this logic is "reasonable" in construction. But by your logic, it should be perfectly reasonable shouldn't it? Or is it only reasonable when you're the guy holding all the cards?View Image
HA!...ok....I'll leave it at this cause although I think it is reasonable in this situation (when I was a Super).....it could (as you say) get ugly .......so back to the beginning...This fellow paid way to much up front money and got burnedI said pay questionable guy after inspection........You say that ain't fair to guys like you cause of (reasons)Which I agree with and have no problem with witholding a sum to cover my butt while easing the pain in yours (that's just good business)This original guy I don't know about, I would be cautious (right or wrong)The rest of our #### a tat is getting too confusing so I gotta say "Let's just give it up".......I'm retired and don't even build anymore..........maybe I'm full of shid, I don't know....don't even care.
And I'm a royal PIA when someone disagrees with me....... so yeah.... I can agree to let this go!
But I still ain't working for ya. ;)View Image
"but the Amish guys around here I'm pretty sure aren't much more 2.50 +extras,....."
Thats a f'n joke. Unfortunately its true. They just framed a 6k sq/ft house for 12k!!! $2 a foot!!! What kind of azzhole doesnt see the wrong in this? This discussion deserves its own thread. Unfortunately thats the reason Im outa the framing business.
You are right. When I started shingling houses in Florida in 1970, framers there were getting two bucks a foot back then!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think in '78 ( summer after HS Grad) I was framing for Cutler Homes at 2.25 a Sqft , to the boss, not me personally, I was lucky to get 8 bucks an hour. Just outside NE Philly.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
but they're Amish ...
gotta be better!
ahh ah ha ha ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
When I retired and bought this property I had an Amish crew build the shell for this 1700 sq' +- cabin. I think they charged me something like 1400.00...maybe more, but they were so cheap I couldn't refuse........The truth be known they did a damn good job of it cause I camped on the property and watched them........old man Ely was polite and congenial.....and so were his kids. They left with the walls braced true and temporary posts under the ridge beam...........I did the rest, but it was now under roof and I was saved running rafters etc. myself. They did the shingles also, But I surely must have paid them extra (I forget)............It is hard for me to understand anyone making a lot of money framing houses these days, but..........I understand you're plight.
I dont think its about whether or not they can frame a nice house. Just like us there are some good and some bad. They can just afford to come in that low because they are not restricted by the same laws we are yet the only real difference I see between the two on the jobsite is that I have to drive myself there and they have a chauffer.
I just did the calculation for my house. I'm paying somewhere around $17/SF (living space) for the framing labor only. I included the total floor space (1st, 2nd, attic, porch, balcony, but not basement because it's concrete and not part of the job. Framing in my case includes getting it weather tight (roofing and siding), as well as building a 300 SF deck and three stairways roughed in.
I wish I had some Amish framers!
I'd still be in the framing business if I had the business sense of your guy! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'd float you the first deck. Then I get a check. Or you don't get any walls............(quote)Now...if this frame job was like my daughters (took close to a year to frame) this would be very reasonable also........But by trying to 'speak for the trades' you gotta realize that most guys aren't in your niche........and I'm willing to bet in these parts framers are still bidding jobs close to 2.50 sq' + extras of course........if that much.
hey, can we keep this thing on track ?whaadda ya think of a Cubs / Red Sox world series ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
whaadda ya think of a Cubs / Red Sox world series ?Who dat?...................go Indians!Yeah...fat chance of that happening.........
I was thinks Cubs-Kansas City World Series.....by the way we softened up the Cards for yah, three game sweep in St. Louis, think we're only 15 out of first.
When my Yankees get their pitching straightened out, it will be cubs vs Yankees!
whaadda ya think of a Cubs / Red Sox world series ?
Were you wanting to put some $$ on the Cubs? :)
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
I don't care who the AL representative is, but I'm sure hoping the Cubs are there for the NL.
I don't want the Lakeview Baseball Club to have to add another digit to their sign.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
my grandson is a Cubs / Red Sox fan
his mom is the Sox fan.. and my SIL is the Cubs fan
can't think of a better way to end the '08 season than Sox / Cubs
and I almost wouldn't care who wins... almostMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
2Paul,
I have been on the opposite side of the situation. I completely blew an estimate, miscalculated material costs, undercharged for labor because is was "for a friend." There was jsut too much work for me to do by myself for the price I charged.
I got payments and that covered material and paid me ok. The problem was the job was taking forever to do. So after awhile I jsut didnt have any money left to pay my bills, so I picked up another job. Figured the little porch would take me about a week and told the "friend" exactly that. It took two weeks. But I made money so now I can go back and work on the "friend job" until my money runs out again. Run out it did.
Picked up two other jobs, one for me to work on, one I knew I could sub out to a buddy. While working on mine the chit hits the fan with my buddy and the GC on his job, they have it out and he walks. Now I have to finish mine, then go finish his. Theres 3 more weeks with the "friend" waiting. All in all I ahd every intention of finishing the job I just needed money to support my family and keep a roof overhead. One thing led to another and unexpected things happened and the poor "friend was sitting there wondering what the F was going on. I F'd up at the start by screwing up the estimate and he paid for it with time in the end. Essentially I became the "contractor from hell" and it haunts me still.
If your contractor tells you he screwed up the price at the get go would you be willing to give him more money to keep him on your job? Probably not. But he might be out of options. No money, starving family. If it means his family eats then you wait.
Or maybe hes just a jerk!
That's a good perspective on the whole thing. You handled it well IMO.
If I hire another builder at this point I'm going to go way over budget - unless you know anyone who will apply 3100 Square feet of cedar shingles, frame three stairways, install five windows, three doors, and two attic vents, frame 6 interior walls on two floors, and build a deck, all for $8000!
i am somewhat baffled by what exactly you hired him to do. based on the info in your post, it seems that even if he finishes his work, your house will still be only about 40% complete.
carpenter in transition
Been thru it before?
Yes, a bunch of times - mostly as a lawyer but as a tradesman too.
You screwed up, no doubt about it. A contract is a binding agreement. It's meant to be there as a failsafe to tell people what they need to do when it hits the fan. I'm willing to bet that you signed his contract without running it past a construction lawyer. Saved a few bucks there.
Now, stop wasting time and go talk to a lawyer and find out what the contract really means and what your rights are in your state. Then, be prepared to deal with some hard choices. Most contractors who write this type of hard a$$ contract that is front loaded are judgment proof and not worth spending the time and aggravation chasing. Even if he is licensed, it sounds like he's got a solid contract and your money and there's not much you can do.
I'd be learning how to nail shingles.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
"I'd be learning how to nail shingles."That might be the best advice so far. I was kinda thinkin he might want to change the siding to vinyl. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Don't forget, 2Paul is the guy that had ripped down a bunch of the cedar shingles the builder already had put up. So... there may be another side to the story.
good catch makes ya wonder what is the whole story because when you put it all together it dosent seem like we have heard everything that needs to be said, yet hes looking for advice?
paul.... you should be able to do an analysis on this..........
View Image
first what do you have left on HIS contract ? $8000 against :
decks
exterior stairs
some windows
soffits
some cornice trim
set roof on tower
trim openings
correct various things
sidewall shingle
what's you GC's estimate of TIME TO COMPLETION ... in man hours, or man days
or man weeks ?????
what did you say ? 34 sq. RC ok best case sq/man/day 34 man days
$8000 / 34 = $235 /day
but... you first floor is stone veneer ... so all of the sidewall starts one floor up... everything is cut up.... your tower is 14' in diameter ... very slow going
anyways... it is going to be very difficult to do the sidewall in 1/2 sq/man/ day
so 2 carps, who know what they're doing 34 days ( 68 man days ) $ 118/day... not a carpenter's wage by a long shot....... 7 (80 ) hours weeks.... call it 3 months
then you have some complicated decks to build... and some exterior stairs... a two -man job plus the decking.... 3 weeks ( 30 man days ) to 5 weeks ( 50 man days )
finish the windows....... a week ( 10 man days )
soffits ... a week ( 10 man days )
trim the openings .. a week ( 10 man days )
set the tower ... a week ( 10 man days )
correct various things.... a week ( 10 mandays )
whatta we got ( 68 +50 + 50 )....... 168 man days ?
to get weather tight you need your windows..
agree on a price for the windows & remaining trim... and a completion date
part of that agreement is a release of both partys from the previous contract
have your lawyer draw up the new agreement
ok.. suppose that happens... and suppose it costs you $2000 ?????
you get to keep $6000... the contractor gets to walk away from a losing proposition
and you can try and get back on schedule , acting as your own GC and subbing the different tasks
one of the previous posters alluded to the shell being 40%... probably more true than false..... so ..... WHEN you get your shell complete , and the decks built and the stone veneer done and the siding done... you will probably still have 60% of your cost still to come
in other words.... do you have a realistic budget to complete the project ?... now is the time to stop and get this all down on paper
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/17/2008 4:15 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike,
Thanks very much for your input. I'm trying to arrange a meeting with my builder and see what his point of view is on this whole thing before making any moves. I hope we don't have to get lawyers involved. I've always thought lawyers were for people who could not settle things on their own. I've also started to do as much work myself as possible, as well as looking for local carpenters who need work. I finished shingling the tower roof a couple of days ago. That's one less thing on the list.
I had actually originally intended to do most of the interior finish work myself.
There is no specific budget, just a target of $125/SQ.FT., give or take.
Thanks,
Paul
IMO $125 sq/ft for the house in Mikes picture, decks included, seems very unrealistic!
vinyl siding, no stone, inexpensive vinyl windows, drywall returns on windows, laminate vinyl in baths, laminate countertops, standard plumbing fixtures, one piece shower/tubs, carpet, mdf 2 1/4" casing and 3 1/2" base, lower end cabinets, and a host of other inexpensive items then maybe.
"There is no specific budget, just a target of $125/SQ.FT., give or take."
did U plant a money tree on the first day?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
My shell packages have draw schedules "when delivered" or "when started" payments. I think your GC is nothing more than a lowballer carpenter pretending to be a GC. I would not build a shell for anyone without supplying materials for that job. My guess is your relatuonship is more like you're the boss and he's the carpenter and he F$%cked up the bid and now he can act like the paychecks stopped. Why would you allow a year on a shell anyway, that just doesn't make sense to have an exterior possibly stopping an interior completion.
Either renengotiate a new contract, renogiate you keeping the 8g and use it to hire out the rest or sue. No matter what you won't break even in this. I would keep the 8g and move on.
Edited 6/18/2008 7:24 am ET by shellbuilder
"Anyone been through this before?"
Actually, no. A large part of my job (as architect) is preventing most of the problems that you have described.
Jeff
Edited 6/17/2008 11:47 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Wait... that's the house that Jeff's gonna shingle easily for $8000??
I was figuring on something a little more simple ...
what with all the missing terms and schedules ... and budgets.
now the guy better make nice-nice with the missing contractor or he really is screwed!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
it may not make you feel any better but i have even more work then that to do on my own house but i dont have 8000.
As many have said your between a rock and a hard place!
Find out how stuck you are with the contract. Maybe offer a bonus to be finished within "x time" with it counting down the longer it takes.
Get a "non-involved" person to cost out finishing as to the contract so you know the full story of where you really stand with the house project.
From your post, I get the sense that your guy knows that he's in a bind but is trying to keep a happy face on the situation.
If you haven't already done so, have a heart to heart talk with the guy and lay your concerns on the table. He needs to show you how he plans to complete the work with the money that's left and still give you the job that he (probably) promised before he started.
I suspect that you're going to go over budget on this job, so it's really going to come down to who completes it, how much longer it will take, and at what price. If you like your guy and his work is good, you may be better off in the long run letting him finish even if it costs you more. You have quite a bit of leverage with him that you don't have with anyone else. If you hold his feet too close to the fire, he may just walk and the next guy isn't going to care how much money you've already spent.
The bottom line is that you're in the same pickle barrel as your contractor. Unless he has a few miracles up his sleeve, you're job is gonna cost you more than you thought - no matter who finishes it.
good point... seems like his work & progress were fine until he hit a bump with his employeesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
face it, you're going over budget. yours wont be the first project to go over budget
if he's working for an hourly rate you might want to have a "team" meeting to see how much he can get accomplished with what money is left.
then map out a plan with a tighter schedule to get the place fully dried in.
after that is satisfied I would guess you are free to hire whomever you choose, maybe even him again for additional monies. no one knows the project as well as him.
if you hire another builder to complete the project its going to get expensive. nobody likes finishing someone elses work unless it pays really good. most contractors are leary about stepping into projects that ended badly. it usually means the money got tight and the attitudes got tighter!
Maverick,
I don't have a budget, so I can't exceed it. I'm just trying to do the best I can given the circumstances.
All I have now is a contract that promised specific work for a fixed dollar amount. My builder hasn't totally jumped ship yet, neither has he expressed any concern (but I know he must absolutely be concerned), so we have to meet and set up a plan.
Paul
Did you say the target was $125/SF? I can't build anything custom for anywhere near that... think $200 and up... way up. Maybe you should be thrilled that it's only cost what it has.
Here in TX you can deliver a pretty nice house for $100 per foot plus the lot. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It's closer to $200ft here in MA.... and on up. View Image
Land is so cheap in TX that you can actually buy a new starter home, in a new subdivision near San Marcos for 89k. I think the house is about 1000 sf on a slab. Yes, it has some vinyl on it LOL. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's pretty awesome really. My house was a dump when I bought it....a 1000sf 60's ranch in need of paint, removal of the asbestos siding, a roof, and the lot was overgrown (an acre). The inside wasn't too bad at all though. Even still....$225K ish.View Image
Yes, it has some vinyl on it LOL.
I didn't see many with vinyl, most of them had a Hardi like siding, done very pizz poor I might add.
I went through some of those starters at $89K, about all I can say is they're building tomorrows slums today! Those things are not any better then a double wide, not the good ones either.
Doug
I never walked through one but I could guess that the quality of the craftmanship is similar to most of what I see here in Austin, which in some cases is not very good. And, I don't know if that area gets permitted or inspected, so behind the walls could be hidden nightmares. In any event, we all can't afford $300k McMansions so I think it's nice that those in the lower economic echelon can find "affordable" housing that is new and isn't a mobile home. I don't think your slum comment is particularly fitting if you are implying that it's the construction alone that causes slums to appear. Slums are more of a result of poor socio-economic skills rather than construction technique but only time will tell. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I don't think your slum comment is particularly fitting if you are implying that it's the construction alone that causes slums to appear. Slums are more of a result of poor socio-economic skills rather than construction technique but only time will tell.
The comment might have been a little tongue in cheek but one thing that I noticed down there in TX that I don't see much of here is that on the lower end of those trac's once they hit about 20-25 years old there doesn't seam to be any influx of remodeling/upgrading going on. They start to look tired, once that happens you start to lose the attraction to new and young homeowners that actually want to move in. You start to get people that have to for numerous reasons.
Up here I see those neighborhoods get the influx of young people that will sink some coin into a nice rehab and the neighborhood stays vibrant. Also up hear we don't seam to mind 25 to 30 year old places, hell some of us don't mind houses that are 150 years old.
When I say slums I often forget that I don't ever see a slum here in Iowa. I know you're from MI and have probably seen your fair share of them, the only time I would see a real slum is on TV or if I take the wrong exit while visiting a large city, so slum is a pretty strong word but I"ve seen neighborhoods in San Marcos, Austin, San Antonio that I didn't think the house was all that bad but the whole neighborhood looked run down, nobody taking any pride in there homes.......I don't want to buy a house in those places cause I know that my investment is not going to rise all that fast, or any. I'm sure I'm not the only person that thinks that while driving through.
Doug
It wasn't toungue in cheek.I really believe that all those crackerbox starter homes will stand for 100 years as long as they get updated. The studs in the walls are the same studs in the million dollar houses. It's the people in the houses that make a difference but I've seen lower income subdivions look better than new after 30 years too. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I really believe that all those crackerbox starter homes will stand for 100 years as long as they get updated
The key is "as long as they get updated" that's the part that I was talking about, some of these neighborhoods don't ever see any improvements. Right along I-35 in San Marcos is a neighborhood that has some trac home that are in that 25-30 year old range and the hood looks very tired, not many improvements going on, certainly not a slum by any stretch of the imagination though. I wouldn't want to own any property there unless it was rental. Would hate to live there myself cause no matter what I did to my place it aint going to look all that good if everybody else is letting theirs go to hell.
I think there has to be something to keep a neighborhood attractive to new people. some of those $89K houses are in neighborhoods that didn't necessarily get the ideal building location, maybe they put it behind a Wal-Mart or next to an old dingy factory.........never going to be an ideal spot, they saved the good spots for the higher end trac's. those are the ones that seam to stay nice for many years down the road.
That hasn't been possible up this way for over ten years,
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No, I'm saying $125/sf of interior heated living space for the entire house construction, not including the land, assuming I am personally doing all of the interior finish work after the plaster wall go in, and my labor cost is not included.
That's a goal, not a budget. If I set a goal for $200/sf, it would be easier to do, but I set a difficult goal for myself. I'm not running a business, this is my own house, I can afford to spend more on it (within reason), but I set the goal so that I could try to achieve it. Not an easy goal, but I know that.
Paul
You are off to a bad start I'm afraid. It only gets worse from here. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm saying $125/sf of interior heated living space for the entire house construction
Doable here in the rural midwest, but I would imagine that would be pretty ambitious if you're on the east coast. Nothing wrong with having an ambitious goal just as long as you don't get too obsessed about it.
Sounds like you've got a good handle on what to do next. A lot of that has to do with going with your gut reaction, but to cover your a$$ with contracts and such. If you have a good feeling about your current guy, my WAG would be that ponying up a bit more $$ will keep the wheels rolling better. The might also give you the opportunity to shorten that 1-year time frame down.
But if you don't have a good feeling about him, don't be afraid to find a way to bail. Hanging on to a bad builder is going to get worse the longer you hold on. But if it is just someone who honestly underbid the project, then I'd cut him some slack. Whether that means shelling out more $$ or subbing out portions of what is left or doing some of it yourself.
Gotta keep the wheels turning without getting too stressed or giving away the farm. What doesn't kill us only makes us stronger :)
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
I think I feel differently about this situation than most of you guys. A lot of you seem to keep suggesting that he should offer the "poor guy" some more cash so he can finish up the job.
I say that's baloney. The way I look at it is, of course, through my own set of filters. I'm thinking that this guy could be some clown that I'm bidding up against all the time. That's a cherry of a house there. A nice job that I know my crew could do some real justice to. And I've got the experience to get it done right for a reasonable amount of money in a reasonable time frame where both the homeowner and myself would come out winners.
But this guy blew it. He underbid the job. Oh f'in well. We all got problems. I say he should have the integrity to take his licks and finish the thing. Been there myself more than once. But I care about my name. I care about my integrity. I care about "doing the next right thing". If this guy blew the bid this bad then he had no business bidding on it in the first place. No wonder why a good solid contractor didn't get the job.....he was bidding against this yahoo... probably didn't stand a chance. And yet he got the job. And will probably end up finishing it for more money than a good contractor would have charged from the begining. Bull$hit I say.
I say if you're gonna play the game and bid on the nice stuff.... you ought to at least live up to the deal and finish it. You dance with the date you brought. Or you go home. God hates a coward.
Now of course none of this helps the homeowner. Not a bit. In fact it's probably in his best interest to schmooze the guy and get him to finish... assuming he's happy with the actual work thus far. But in principle.... it's wrong.
I don't feel bad for the "poor guy" contractor. Not one bit. He took food off my table from where I'm standing. In a perfect world the clown should get tossed out in the street on his butt and the homeowner should keep the last eight large. The homeowner just made a few tuition payments on the crash course of "read before you sign". And the "contractor" gets the idea that he's not gonna get away with this stuff. I wish you could post lousy contractor's pictures up at the lumberyard.... like the PO does with criminals. This way yahoos like this stop stealing work from qualified contractors. Or playing the bait and switch with a low-ball bid and then a pile of "extras" bills at the end..... or monkey business like what's going on with the OP.
I'm just sayin'.........View Image
I agree with DP. This is one of the strongest reasons my shell plan works well for homeowners. The framing and foundation could be completely screwed and they don't even know it. When a HO acts as his own contractor subbing out the pieces involved with a shell , IMO the chances of something major being wrong are near 100%. They could only get lucky to find a real pro like DP who could do the labor and make the decisions needed to get things done as they are supposed to be. Besides being ahead on draws, I would be curious to see pictures of this job up close.
I also think the OP calling this guy "his builder" has me confused too.
No framing inspection here until insulation is installed, crazy, huh?
Edited 6/18/2008 8:10 pm ET by shellbuilder
Edited 6/18/2008 9:13 pm ET by shellbuilder
"The framing and foundation could be completely screwed and they don't even know it."
In this case, the "they" are most of the subs I have hired. This is precisely why I wanted to be the GC, so at least the details of construction would be under my control and done properly or corrected. I have no way of knowing if a GC I hired would know the right way to do things. I don't know everything, but I know a lot, especially about what make a structure strong. What I don't know I read code books about and consult experts. I have found that almost everyone I have hired fails to understand some part of construction prints and notes properly, and miss key points that are important:
- Surveyors that don't hold the pole plumb and throw off the foundation points several inches.
- Foundation crews that don't understand the requirements for creating strong concrete in adverse weather conditions, or the importance of proper rebar placement.
- Masons who don't keep a wall plumb or know how to install wall ties properly or maintain an air gap.
- Framers who piece together structural members that need to resist bending and shear loads, and fail to properly support high load points according to the print.
I'm a Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer, and I'm wearing several hats on this job: Architect, Structural Engineer, Homeowner, General Contractor, HVAC designer, and Finish Carpenter. I'd also be Electrician and Plumber, but Massachusetts doesn't legally allow that without a license.
I hired a framer/builder to build the shell. I'm the GC, he's a sub contractor.
According to my local building inspector, my next inspection is after the framing, plumbing, and electrical work are completed, but before the insulation is installed.
I have found that almost everyone I have hired fails to understand some part of construction prints and notes properly, and miss key points that are important:
I've run into the same problem. Good subs are pure gold. The pros on here have already sifted through the rum-dums to find the gold, but for folks like us who just do the occasional projects, we tend to run into more of the rum-dums. There is really no way to know the quality of the sub without having them do a project for you.
On my current project, I've run the full gamit from guys you couldn't PAY me to have work on my house, to guys who I'm not only going to use again but will recommend to anyone who asks me.
As you've probably already figured out, here on BT we've got a high percentage of the creme de la creme. These guys are putting in their full work day, and then getting on a work-related forum... that tells you their dedication to their craft. Probably 80% of the pros on this forum fall into my category of not only being happy to hire/re-hire them, but I'd be happy to recommend them (I just wish more of them lived nearby).
Their take on problem GC/subs is always interesting. Since they're doing quality work themselves, they're more likely to have the source of a problem being the HO, architect, or such.
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Paul,
Forgive me, I thought you were a regular ole' homeowner.Hopefully this will get straightened out. Do you think the shell guy knew he was over drawing in the beginning and he thought he could leave when he needed to. It just strikes me odd that any "builder" would be labor only in any circumstance. Maybe if he did supply material, it might have been worse. Good luck, I 'll follow this to see how it goes
Brian
Couldn't have said it better
WE have all underbid jobs, that's just the way this game goes, but even if I underbid I finish the job, I don't short change em cause I wasn't paying attention.
BTW, don't care for the Red Sox's or those cheaters that you guys call a football team but glad to see the Celtics back on top! Been a Celtic fan since Bill Russel ruled the court - I think that's before you were born. :)
Doug
arlen spector says he has to get back to work.... decided maybe they ain't cheaters....don't tell jeff buckMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Who cares, well with the exception of Jeff, what Arlen Spector says!
Cheaters are cheaters, and how would a politician know!
Dont want to get into a discussion about an almost team anyhow, Giants settled all that.
Doug
hmmmm.... sounds like a little wager on gints / pats comming upMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nah, neither team interests me enough to wager anything of value on them.
Giants served a purpose and that's all.
Now if were talking the Pack that might interest me!
Doug
wow ...
first the Pat's cheat.
then Mike lies about what Arlen says ...
can't be a good sign.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
so.. you want the stillers against the pats ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
depends if they're playing a fair game or I'm betting against a stacked house!
ahh ha ha ha ...
buncha cheaters ...
Jeff
but back to your original question ...
yeah ... probably. Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
yeah... and they play rough , tooMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
How many points you giving for opening day Chumps vs. Pats?
Doug.....
Anybody who knows anything at all about how pro football works.... knows that EVERY team tries to steal signals. In fact a few years ago just about EVERYONE was taping signals. But the new commish decided to start enforcing some of those rules that had 'slid' for a long time.... and make a name and reputation for himself in the process. Belichick is arrogant and maybe even dumb for continuing to tape after being warned. But you all sore-losers are kidding yourselves if you think he's any different than any other pro football coach.
How many coaches and/or ex coaches (who didn't get their butts handed to them by the Pats) do you see whining about what Belichick got caught doing? Exactly zero. Not Parcells. Not John Madden. Not Bill Cowher. They all know that gamesmanship is part of the business.... and that Mangini is a dirty little rat.View Image
Brian
I'm not going to sit here and argue football with you on this thread but I don't believe for one split second that ALL coaches have cheated to win games.
I couldn't possibly care any less what guys like Madden say about the subject. There are legit ways to steel signals, eg, a guy on second base watching into the catcher to see if he can pick up the signal to the pitcher, That's considered legit, taping such as what went on with Belichick is not. And just cause others do it makes it OK?
I grew up admiring the wrestling skills and then the coaching skills of Dan Gable, he always wanted to wrestle the best wrestler, wrestle the best teams. His edge came in his preparation, not in some sneaky way to beat the opponent.
The comment about he cheating football team seams to have bothered you some so consider my apology for bring it up, didn't mean to hit a nerve.
But you all sore-losers
I've been a Green Bay fan since about 1965 or 66, no sore-loser here, you guys have to win what? another 7 or 8 (maybe more, not going to look it up but I do know that ya aint close yet) championships before you catch up!
Doug
I like what you have said about integrity and your good name, and about doing what you contract to do. I sure wish I could know ahead of time who has integrity before I hire them.
By the way, I did not select the lowest bid, he was a mid-point guy. Seems like he miscalculated.
Paul
You ever decide to move to the midwest, you can frame a house for me anytime.
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
Have you talked to the guy yet?
A contract is only a meeting of the minds, period. Another option is if both of your minds agree is to dissolve the contract. You must of been happy with the progress he was making other wise you would of not made the progress payments to him, At one point you stated the payment got off track due to bad weather. So consider what has been paid to cover work done. If you both agree go your separate ways, dissolve the contract.
Now you are paying all materials, right so 8000 is labor, right, 8K buys a lot of labor.
$8000 / $20/ hr = 400 hours
400hours / 40hr/ wk= 10 weeks left to do what you need done. sounds tight but do able.
Sound like even though it is not spelled out what you wanted from the start was an hourly employee not a GC. An contractor supplies his own material an hourly employee does not. You are suppling material he is not.
Wallyo
Hard to find somebody who knows which end of the hammer to hold for only $20/hr up in mass
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That is true with the north east, but I was taking that the OP was in Texas if I am right, just an off the cuff average on my part. But since the Op is paying for materials 8,000 still buys a good deal of man hours.Wallyo
No- Jim is in TX, the OP is in New England edit - in keeping with mike's request to stay on topic, The OP is a Pat's fan!;)
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 6/20/2008 11:37 am ET by Piffin
Thanks for the clearing that up. I thought the house looked out of place for Tx. So how many man hours do you think 8k would buy in New England on average.Wallyo
experienced productive independent artisans here are 26-34.
At twenty bucks an hour you get a guy with a nail bag and hammer but he needs pretty close supervision
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
around here I can hire carpenters all day for 12.00 and hour, but I can't afford to.........can't even get up enough cash to buy the beams to build a floor over my living room so's I can save propane this winter...........One guy came by and offered to put in 400 ft of fence for me (40 locust posts + wire) for 100.00.........I did it myself........Life is truely an adventure in the south east part of OH.....love it!
I forget - where is around here for you?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
uppa......Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Izzadat New Englandese for Upper Peninsula?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yeah... but i've never seen it speeled
i don't know if it's yuppa oruppaMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, Don beat me to it, but as a born and raised one, it's Yooper. And the folks from the lower half of the state, are called Trolls, atleast up here. :) If you can say hockey, without the h sound, you may fit right in.Brudoggie
lot of my cousins from Rochester moved to Travers City 30 years agoraised about 10 yoopersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
In post 99 in the last line he mentions Southeast OH.
on the other note, I've seen it spelled Yooper. There's even a singing group called Da Yoopers, IIRC. They've got some funny songs.
Don
I have been following this thread.
Do you have an update from your meetings with the nail banger?
Chuck S
I finally pinned him down today. He has taken another big money job locally that he was contracted to start on June 1st and complete by August 15. He said the contract stipulated that he will not be paid unless he completes it in time. He's even working on Saturdays to do it. If I had been more astute I could have had a clause in my contract like that! Live and learn. I'm not going to see him much until that job is over, but he said he will be back to do a couple of critical things when I need him, and said he'll be back to finish after the other job. It's a bummer because I'm losing two months.
We also discussed the interior wall framing today. He said it is not in the contract, only the load bearing and exterior walls are covered. I've never heard of such a thing. I read it over and it's not clear: "Complete framing of sill and knee walls in basement. Framing of 1st floor decking and walls. Framing of 2nd floor decking and walls. Framing of attic floor and walls. Framing of roof. All headers, floor joists, studs and rafters will be installed in locations with spacing and specifications as per plans."
He did find a guy that will be doing the cedar shingles for him. I met with him today and he's ready to start at the end of next week, and work from my specifications.
In the meantime, I'm working on all things I can do myself.
Paul
If your contract says that the walls "will be installed in locations with spacing and specifications as per plans", that begs the question.What do your plans and specs show for interior wall framing?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
My plans show all walls, interior and exterior. I drew them myself in Chief Architect and then in SolidWorks. My builder saw the whole package before submitting the quote. That means the interior walls should be included in the quote, as far as I can tell. At one point earlier in the project he even asked me for detailed drawings of the interior walls again because he lost my original plans. I think he's trying to dodge work.
Paul
me thinks you are correct!
time to make "another" deal.
Hey ... I'll let ya work those other jobs to catch up, and you'll actually build everything that we initially agreed on ... sounds fair to me!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa