Today’s news brings another government entity that wants to help reduce foreclosures….the city of Seattle. Lately we are hearing noises from our state government wanting “to do” something, as well. And, yes good old Congress and the prez…throwing money at everything and everyone (except me, social security).
Is this a feel good fad that everyone (generic) seems to want to jump on?
Greed, ignorance and impatience created this problem. Greed from the bottom up. Buyers who were enabled by a system that encouraged them to overextend themselves without regard for personal responsibility. A real estate industry driven by bloated valuations and ever larger fees and commissions. Bankers racking up their tally of paper scores for their column. Wall Street investors in bed with each other and juggling everything to look good and pass the risks around like an outbreak of the clap.
Now that this is beginning to affect our neighborhoods, people we know and our own property values and tax bases, do we see an urgent need to “do something”.
I may be hard hearted by I find it difficult to sympathize with someone who didn’t save a little, learn to read a contract and understand what they were doing. What is so tough about understanding what the word “adjustable” means? Depending upon where in this nation one is, these folks are signing for tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. I know education has been slipping in many ways, have we that many stupid people graduating?
Now the city wants to extend no interest five year loans to these folks. The state? Who knows yet what these bozos will do in an election year. I would imagine these types of fixes are being considered elsewhere.
I’d like a no interest five year loan. Guess what, I don’t qualify because I own my home, paid my bills and taxes and actually managed to save a little while working hourly and raising a family with my wife. I’m just the taxpayer that is going to end up eating their screwups.
You guys are in the front lines of this with your businesses and trades. Some of you are probably victims and some may have had a share in creating this mess. I’m guessing there are probably at least a trillion dollars in this mix. Will this nation ever learn? I hear nothing from any party or candidate addressing this situation and I don’t think it is going to go away before November.
I can’t really grasp the enormity of it and yet it is there like the elephant in the room.
Where to next?
…The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain…Be kind to your children….they will choose your nursing home.…aim low boys, they’re ridin’ shetland ponies !!
Replies
>I may be hard hearted by I find it difficult to sympathize with someone who didn't save a little, learn to read a contract and understand what they were doing. What is so tough about understanding what the word "adjustable" means? Depending upon where in this nation one is, these folks are signing for tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. I know education has been slipping in many ways, have we that many stupid people graduating?<
The education factor has been one of my rants for a while now. I think that if the highschools would teach banking in the first year of HS explaining the costs of loans/credit, what it takes to live, how to figure a budget and a little forecast guessing they might crack the lid open on keeping kids in school long enough to graduate sice they hopefuilly have a better understanding of finances and the their McJob can't provide enough for them. Teach the same class again in their final year. Knowing what it takes financially to live ought to keep more kids in school. But as of now there is no one telling people with even the basic understanding of how banks & loans/credit work.
No, I don't think you're being hard hearted. Look at the new house that people move in and in the first month all the brand new toys and Hummers show up before they even get their first mortgage payment.
Ever see the rats with a choice of food or cocaine ?
Yes it's not good being a rat but if you look up you might see some puppet master controlling the experiment.
There is the ongoing need for a symbiotic relationship between checks and balances.
Yes. Many years ago in a town where we lived a few of us tried to get such a program implemented in the local curiculum. It fell on deaf ears. After all, what did we know? We did not have teaching credentials.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
While I too would love to see personal finance taught at the high school level, that would likely change little. The current crisis is the result of a culture that celebrates excess and rewards deceitful and failure in business.
True, that.
The lending institutions could help a bit if they weren't so greedy, not that the buyers that can't / won't read and honor their contracts deserve help, if any.
Mr & Mrs Joe Bozo signed up for the ARM. Now they're getting ARMed, so to speak. The bank or whatever says "it's right here. We can now charge you this."
Yes they can but in some cases you gotta wonder. They can make payments at "X" $. It goes to "Y" $ and they can just make it. Then it goes to "Z" $ and they are out.
Now, legal and right is one thing BUT, does it make sense to force them out when you're making money at X or Y? By enforcing Z you get zero. What have you, as a business, gained by doing so? The B/S, legal fees, bad PR, stress on everyone concerned. It seems ridiculous. If they do it for a greater tax gain then the whole tax system is so F----D up that it has to change. This, (most would likely agree), can't happen soon enough. But will it????????
I am no good at economics, but, for the life of me I do not understand this scenario that is happening as we speak.
Funny how the economists talk about "trickle down" when it comes to profits and living wages. When it comes to bad times it turns into a torrential storm with the bad news getting down there at warp speed....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
gotta start somewhere... education seems a good place. People talk about banks being greedy, but their business is making money as best they can, just like you and me.
John7g - don't want to sidetrack the thread from the original point of this economic mess we're all in......but felt I had to respond to your suggestion of teaching banking in the schools.
I used to do it. Have a math degree and taught high school math for four years, including what I called "Personal Finance". Taught how to balance a checkbook, calculate interest, figure out the real cost of a loan, develop a budget, etc. Most schools don't have structured curriculum set up for this, but it's not hard finding time to work this stuff in if you want to. I knew of other teachers who did the same. But as you indicate, they're the exception, not the rule.
If you want stuff like that happening in the schools, though, the real problem is how low teacher pay is, especially if you're a math/science teacher. I couldn't afford to stay a teacher. There's a real shortage of math/science teachers because the schools can't hold on to them. Like me, they find it's too easy to find higher paying jobs in the private sector. Right now I'm making more money than my older sister (by 7 years) who's been a teacher for 20 years and has a master's degree. Don't know whether you've noticed, but Education's usually always on the short list of things to cut when state or federal budgets get tight.
My 2 cents.charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
Charlie,
Don't know if all my theory came across in the posts but do you think the fiannce clas would open some eyes to the real world if it was taught in the first year to help explain the costs of living and 2nd andavneced form of it again in the 4th year? My theory is that if the kids know what is required to live a decent life they'll go drive on and finsih HS instead of dropping out. Here in GA the state average is @ or below 50% for graduation HS. Pretty pathetic.
7g
simple answer to the graduate rates is to not allow them to quit school.
Frammer52 - you're really dreaming if you think you can somehow "not allow" a kid to quit school.charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
This would not be a dream if you taught kids to follow laws. If kids were picked up when truant or skipping schools, and belived that the authorities meant for them to attend school. It is a shame that some parents can't control their children.
The dropout rate in GA is not actually as bad as you have portrayed and the graduation rates have been steadily increasing.
http://gov.georgia.gov/00/press/detail/0,2668,78006749_96092832_96288157,00.html
Of course there are other agencys with other numbers out there but all the stats I have seen are higher than the numbers you threw out.
Personally I beleive parental involvement has far more to do with grad rates and overall education than teacher salaries.
I do think a basic finance course is a good idea.
Edited 2/2/2008 10:19 am ET by TomW
Edited 2/2/2008 10:20 am ET by TomW
Interesting and thanks for the correction. The number I stated was from something I read in the AJC last summer. I wonder what I'm thinking about then... Lemme see if I can figure it out...
Amen to a lack of responsibility on the part of parents! They expect teachers to turn their lives around, and when there is a need of discipline the only involvement of the parents is to claim their child is innocent and a victim! Parents have a duty to instill discipline and responsibility in their children. (And that includes financial responsibility). The teachers can reinforce what has been taught in the home, but they can't do it alone.
We have raised a generation of young people that want instant gratification. They want to move into a house that is nicer than the one their parents have. They want two fairly new cars and be able go and do anything they want when the mood strikes them.
This generation wants to make a good salary without going to college or trade school. They "deserve" a $20/hour job and maybe they will learn something on the job so they will be of value in a few years. In the meantime, they want health care, sick leave and vacation time.
Sorry for the rant, but I see this every day. I have been a banker for 30 years so I have seen hard times before. This group of twenty-somethings are going to get an education, but it will be at the School of Hard Knocks.
amen
Yes, I think the type of class we're talking about should be taught and required. That's why I taught it to anyone who ended up in my class, whether it was algebra, geometry, or whatever. Your idea of having it first and last year in high school at a basic then advanced level is a good one. I can tell you that all my students paid attention and liked it when I went through Personal Finance stuff.....they WANTED more stuff like that and groaned when we had to get back to the algebra or geometry. charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
now let's diagram a sentence.. although my MIL says they've dropped that part of English class.
Please don't blame school districts lack of teachers pay for this mess. Just read NEA Jan. bulliten, in which they were bragging that average teachers starting pay was way up in several states. (35000-50000) teaching used to be a calling. That pay is for a job that works 180 days a year, 6 hours a day. Please don't tell me teachers are underpaid, most young teachers supplement there pay with second jobs in there summer vacations etc.. In exchange for lower pay we give teachers tenure. Try firing a teacher after getting tenure.. Now, I graduated high school in 1972. In my senior year, one elective was consumer economics, this should be a requirement for all to graduate. I was not the smartest or most motiavated but I only had 1 study hall in high school, because they were waste of time. Few less study halls and more requirements would help these kids become better educataded.
Frammer52- We agree on some things and probably never will on others. Don't know if you're a framer but I wouldn't dream of telling a framer how good or bad working conditions are in the world of framing.
As a guy who lived in the teaching world long enough to know, here's the world of teaching as I see it:
1) Teachers are underpaid. Period. Yes, most teachers (they don't have to be young) supplement with summer jobs. I taught summer school. That still left one month with no pay coming in. Paying the bills that month usually meant credit card cash advances. A lot of teachers here in Central California hire on at the canneries.
2) You're dreaming if you think teachers only are working 180 days/year and 6 hours/day. I was working about about 10 hrs/day teaching, preparing lessons plans, grading, etc. That's not unusual. That's 1800 hrs/year....which is about the same number of hours I'm at my desk as a Sr. Financial Analyst for a hospital (I'm on vacation or holidays about 200 hrs/yr, which unlike teaching, I get paid for).
3) "In exchange for lower pay we give teachers tenure". There's so much wrong with that belief I won't go there. Let's just say we should get rid of tenure. A teacher should be able to be fired at any point in their career, just like most everyone else. You want another group of people the same way? Fed/State/County Government employees. Try firing them after they've been on the job 5 years or more. Practically impossible. Change that too.
4) More requirements/higher standards would be better. You're about the same age as me. Requirements were stricter for our generation...more reading, writing, math. We need to shift back to that. Typing should be required these days.
5) Parents need to be a LOT more involved with their kids' education. I had about 175 students each year. And each year I only saw about 5-10 parents on school night. And they were always for the students I had that were acing the class.
Teaching is a calling. I still tutor friends and relatives for free and have done that all my life. But you're not going to keep teachers, especially math teachers, the way things are right now. When I started out and was substituting while looking for a teaching job, I was subbing math classes practically every day. Why? Because I was about the only sub in the entire Sacramento area that actually knew math and had a credential in it. Hate to tell you what all the other subs in math classes were doing, but it wasn't teaching...it was babysitting.
charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
Edited 2/2/2008 12:14 pm by charlie4444
sir: the work year is 40x52=2080 hours per year useing your figures(which I don't agree with) that still leaves 280 hours short of a full year. Yes, for the last 13 years I worked as a framing carp. Before that I was in business 12 years. Previously I worked in large corp. as salesman, this was after graduating BS degree. I grew up in a family of teachers. Now you have bought into the belief that teachers are underpaid. What I tried to commucate(sp) was that teachers have time to earn other money. Also, I have never worked less that 40 hours week, more like 50. Multiply that out and you will see that teachers don't work that hard. The other point that I was making is that teachers don't have to put up with layoffs etc, that private industries have.
What do the teachers in your family think? Do they agree with you that teachers don't work that hard and aren't underpaid?charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
yes
Amazing. I've had a lot of different jobs, and I found teaching to be the most demanding, emotionally consuming job I've ever done. Also the highest stress level of any job I've done. It was the most rewarding for those times that everything clicked, but it was the most punishing when things went awry.
I did at times observe other teachers who probably would agree with your family that teachers don't work hard, but they would have been some of my first candidates for removal after throwing out the tenure system. Along with them would be a lot of the teachers who are 5 years from retirement and don't care anymore.....they just take attendance and hand out the ditto.
Ah well. As I said, we agree on some stuff, and not on others. Tell you what, if the housing slump hits you, consider subbing in the schools. All it requires is a bachelors degree which you said you've got, and the daily rate isn't too bad. It might require a separate general knowledge exam also, but they're usually not anything insurmountable. Once you've done a month of subbing let me know what you think. Who knows? You might like the pay for "not working hard".
Take carecharlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
Right now, I'm totally disabled, due to car accident. I have looked into subbing, but I don't know if I could keep my temper under control. I know that teaching is very rewarding mentally, but can be extreemly frustrating. People who start teaching should be prepared(SP) for a lower starting pay. If you are not happy with that find another job. The advantage to teaching is the security, the knowing that your job will be there year after year. It is a trade off. that is the reason for tenure(one of them). Teachers have a hard job. Dealing with kids who have not been disaplined at home and have a hard tine with authority figures.
"I have looked into subbing, but I don't know if I could keep my temper under control. "That would be easy if you had access to tools that disciplined those that needed it."Dealing with kids who have not been disciplined at home and have a hard time with authority figures."The system allows these kids to be disruptive. The system fears losing the money attached to their head more than they fear the behavior. Also, the system contributes to the problem by creating a curriculum that caters to the masses and expects square pegs to fit into round holes. Opening up the system to outsiders would fix it in a hurry. By keeping the money internally and trying to solve the problem within a framework of a government monopoly guarantees a significant number of failures. I'd guess that 1/3 of the students are forced down the wrong curriculum path but no one cares as long as they get the money and they get to keep their "class size". Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Locally my son was given a student handbook dealing with dress, behaviors etc.. The school district doesn't enforce them. This sends a message that rules aren't enforced, then they wonder why they think that when they get out of school rules aren't important. This is why young employees have a hard time showing up on time, obeying what their bosses tell them to do. If the rule is important enough to be made, enforce it.
Teaching may not be as steady as you think. I know quite few teachers who's jobs are in jeopardy due to cut backs in education spending. One actually comes to mind, she was an engineer who lost her private sector job due to economic down turn and got into teaching thinking that it would be safe. Guess what she just lost her job because of cut backs, and she has a masters degree. Another friend of mine spent a lot of time and money earning her teaching degree only to not find work as a teacher, at least in her home state. Other states were looking to hire teachers but the pay could not justify a move. My point is teaching goes up and down with the economy and demographic population shifts just like any other job.Hopfully you will have better opportunity than they did, best of luck to you.
these examples are reachers that have not gotten tenure. Once that moment has been reached,good luck trying to lay them off.
If the person really wanted to teach, move where the jobs are. This is like a carpenter learning then refusing to move where there are jobs. Very few teaching jobs have anything to due with economy. Most of the time they have more to due with demographics.
I agree, but moving was not an option for my friend. She is married to a guy who has a good paying job and supporting the family outweighs her desire to teach.
"Hate to tell you what all the other subs in math classes were doing, but it wasn't teaching...it was babysitting."That statement tells us more why the teachers are leaving the system. Highly qualified people will now work in a system where the inmates are running the show. Money is not the biggest issue. Politics is a much bigger factor. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Taught how to balance a checkbook, calculate interest, figure out the real cost of a loan, develop a budget, etc. they taught that in my fifth grade class.two ways to screw up concrete 1) concrete driver 2) concrete finisher
Good! but 5th grade to graduation is too long of a time for most people to retain it. Needs to be just before they're a working independent adult.
Don't understand or don't want to understand?
There is a talk show host that used to be an active attorny. IIRC he said that he has not practiced since the early 90's. So this is an old problem.
He used to do closing on loans. Now he never said what kind of loans or reasons for the loans. Reading between the lines that they weren't new purchase mortgages from a mortgage company, but might have been home improvement loans or private first mortgage because they did not qualify for standard loans.
More than once he got sued because the HO claimed that they did not understand that they could lose their homes.
Each time that happened he sent there attorny a copy of the audio tape that he made at closing where he explicity warned them what would happen if they got behind.
Never heard from them again.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
yet it is there like the elephant in the room
Not at all helped by what appears to be decent evidence that the majority of the "at risk" notes being held by would-be flippers, who were looking for a fast buck from little or no effort, and have "nothing to lose" if their "get rich quick scheme" goes tango-uniform.
That puts the underwriters for the bank notes at risk of holding an asset which is really a big giant loss. Now, there's a lot of under-capitolized institutions out there. There's some money in underwriting such places. Sadly, there's also money in holding such places "short," too.
Now, for hard-hearted, I make no apologies about the 6&7-figure types boohooing that their balance sheets will be off for either holding too much money in RE/lending speculation, or for not shorting the market "enough." Boo-hoo, they may have to cut back a jar or two of beluga. Smacks far too much too me of trading in others' misery (even in those cases where it was self-inflicted).
Interest free loans are only putting off the inevitable. Eventually the mortgage is going to be re financed an then what happens if there isn't another interest free loan.
Someone mentioned about "a puppet master" and I think that is a pretty good anology. The trouble is, is that there are so many puppet masters and all the strings are getting mixed up.
Wall street looks like a feeding trough for the very few. I think it was around 1996 when the Dow went over 4000. Now look where it is even after a bad few weeks!
What used to be somewhat (or at least appeared to be) a free market system is now anything but. The Savings and Loan debacle and then the Dot Com #### and now the Sub Prime thing are all "made in America" and done by a very small group of people. These are over and above what is considered the normal up and downs and the odd crash.
Where on earth are the regulators that allow all this? Then again if it is really greed out of control then I guess everyone is getting their just desserts.
The dazzle of Wall street has been exported around the world to other countries and it has come with a huge price. Similar to the plague.
Maybe I'm a doom and gloom sort of guy but I think unless something dramatic is done(and money ain't going to fix it) the U.S. is on a spiral down.
roger
Where on earth are the regulators that allow all this? Then again if it is really greed out of control then I guess everyone is getting their just desserts.
Well, that's the problem, it's not all just apples or oranges, but an entire fruit basket with avocados and tomatoes in there too. There's lots of mortgage regulation out there that gets winked at (like not reporting that loan from your rich-in-law to be able to put 20% down).
The 80/20 note market is not all evil--it has some real good, like a small developer who can convert his spec lots into houses quickly. The "subprime" market also was a good way to get people out of the "upside down" that renting can wedge them into. Like in my area, where rent rates outstrip the mortagage rates per s.f. (about 25¢/sf more to rent).
Now, the bozons out there who bought empty houses with 80/20's and tried to flip them for $50/60K of profit after only a coat of paint (since that's all the tv shows did, so it has to be easy)--they are going to be the crux of this problem. That's because there will be some of those who counted their chickens before the eggs were hatched, and "leveraged" their own new homes with flip properties. Now, the flip properties are stil ljunk, but junk used as collateral.
Those folk will see the "rest of the herd" just dump their inconvenient flips and walk away. Only to find out, no, you did mortgage your own homestead away, and yes you are out on the street like a bum, cryin' kids and un-paid for stuff, too. Which will "play" on the evening news O so very well . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You forgot to mention the mortgage broker who took their 3% fee right off the top of every transaction they handled .
Not much incentive to talk people out of the sale by mentioning the reality of the way it all works now is there. Caught an article here about how much income the brokers have lost since this all started. Poor babies were whining about how their income dropped what with the loss of the subprime market.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
how much income the brokers have lost since this all started. Poor babies were whining about how their income dropped what with the loss of the subprime market.
I'd just might have a tad more sympathy if a lot of the brokers out there looked a lot less like commodity speculators (and with similar interests/practices).
But, maybe I've heard one too many talk up how they sold off their less-well-secured "tens" (from 10/10/80 notes) . . . Gee, I'm all warm and fuzzy there, chief; you found somebody more gullible to pick up notes you "shorted"--that'll be helping. It can be like hearing bookmakers whining that they can't find anybody dumb enough to lay off their lousier bets with.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
sir: there is nothing wrong with making money, where the problem exists is when people don't have the morals to do the right thing. For example people thinking they deserve something for nothing . too many people took advantage of weak or nonexistant standards, in aplying and receiveing mortgages. Unlike yourself, I don't believe people are inherintlly(sp) good. There has to be laws. IN THIS CASE people who should know better, didn't stop to think what there actions would or could do. Our country is strong and rich enough to overcome these occasional glitchs. I have been nice enough to call you a socialist, i could have called you marxist. Neither of these has proven to work in the real world, again lack of morals.
""i could have called you marxist"" I am ""there is nothing wrong with making money"" sure there is , that is called counterfeiting. ;-) (note the joke symbol) There is nothing wrong with Earning money .
""For example people thinking they deserve something for nothing "" As in corporations demanding and getting property taxes forgiven when they move into an area? As in tax write offs for buying SUV's and calling it a business expense? As Haliburton et al for not reconstructing Iraq? Morals or lack of are certainly not confined to the lower economic classes. The history of this country is replete with examples of people with no morals stealing more money from those who have little of it all in the name of profit.
What is that old saying : Let the Buyer beware? I take that to mean that if I am the seller I have the right to charge you far more than what something is worth and justify it in the name of "profit"
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I just bought my house then paid it off saved for the next one then paid that one off, Everyone else had new trucks, big TVs ,nice vacations, They thought i was foolish and maybe i was to frugal and even i wondered sometimes but now im very glad to live debt free , Well not all the way cause of college loans.
Today "everyone" wants everything now. No waiting. No working for and saving for anything. Borrowing for more than asking price to finance closing, taxes, new cars, furniture , etc in one package.
They have no equity in anything, so , they walk away and guess who pays?
People will do what they are allowed to get away with. In this case I believe the real cause is with the lenders. They issue the funds and say yea or nay. Then the regulators. They aren't regulating, are they? Rules are being bent or obscured or just ignored.
Will this all really change the way things are done?
"Why should we care?", a neighbor asked me. I asked him about where his pension fund was getting some of it's money. He had no answer. Hmmmmmmmm................The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
"""Why should we care?", a neighbor asked me. I asked him about where his pension fund was getting some of it's money. "" Bingo!!!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"They have no equity in anything, so , they walk away and guess who pays? "
I don't know how it works in the U.S. but up here in Canada a friend of mine walked away from his house in the early nineties.
Nearly 10 years later he gets a registered letter from the bank saying he "owed" x amount of money because they (bank) sold the house for less than the mortgage. Now apparently the bank must sell the house at fair market value. Yeh right!!!!
The legal fees and extra (super expensive) bank fees were also added to the pot which would curl your toes.
To be honest, that is the first and only time I've heard of this happening but..............who knows.
As much as I detest the banks but if they kept the people, who agreed to mortgages, responsible, well after awhile, word would get out and it wouldn't happen as often.
roger
>>Nearly 10 years later he gets a registered letter from the bank saying he "owed" x amount of money because they (bank) sold the house for less than the mortgage. Now apparently the bank must sell the house at fair market value. Yeh right!!!!<<
Thats the same way I see it going down here, might be 10 years later, or 10 weeks. Whenever they catch up to you.
Bank puts the house up for sale, it might sell. Most reasonable offers are taken.
If the house doesn't sell, then it's auctioned off.
If there is a balance due from the sale then you are responsible for it.
The bank breaks it off in you when there is a difference. Woods favorite carpenter
It gets better in the US. The banks are writing down bad loans and selling for what they can get. The up side for them is, it's a tax write off. Profitable companies will also buy up loan companies at bargin basement prices because their losses have tax value.
Now the kicker, in order to get the loss, lenders must 1099 the defaulting party. Example: you owe $600,000 and walk away from the house. If the house does not sell in the lenders tax year you will be 1099'd the entire amount, which means at 25% Uncle Sammy wants a check for $150 grand.... NOW! Typically it takes 1-3 years for IRS to catch up with unreported 1099's but they do catch them.
You ain't seen nothin yet.
You ain't seen nothin yet.
Too true.
Especially when some walk-away flipper had taken the note out in the wife's name to take advantage of a "first time buyer" note, then divorces her for a newer model.
Talk about great TV, divorced (probably single mother) and here's an irs bill for a house you did not know about . . .
Hmm, just think about all of those vacant houses with paint-n-papered over problems lurking out there . . . undiscovered leaks, mold, mildew, painted-over hazmat . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
It's basically the dumbing of american, more people watch ameican idol, survior and dancing with stars than the news. Did youns see the article about the couple in SD Calif..... sueing their real estate agent because all the houses where going for 100k something less than they paid. Both professionals (one a college professor) and they didnt check the comps. I have a two year degree and thats the first thing I ask for when I am looking at a house. When are people gonna take responsiblity for own actions. People will spend more time researching when buying a TV, stero, even a car but the biggest purchase in their lives they trust the so called experts to handle it for them. Let the fools suffer.
Dan
"Let the fools suffer."
I actually agree with that but, and it is a big but. The lenders should also suffer for enticing and taking advantage of idiots. That is what laws are all about: protecting the public from being taken advantage of.
Organized crime works on the same basis: give people what they want and charge them for it. Sounds almost like capitalism but somewhere along the line, every country in the world decides that a little bit of socialism(my interpretation;government control) is needed in that rules are made to protect the country/people. As an example, whether it is state run oil companies or government strict rules on oil companies are pretty much the same thing. Control for the betterment(?) of society.
So, in summary: the idiots who took the loan should sink and the guys who gave out the loans and put the debt out into funds should be crucified. (Gee, does it show I'm an athiest)
roger
Bobby,
I know you are a supporter, of sorts, for the man (GW) so I won't get in your face over it but, think about this for a second. Social Security.
I know, many will climb all over me on this but didn't he try to get everyone to ditch this program and turn all your future over to the same guys on Wall St. that cannot handle the mortgages?
Leave my SS alone !!!!!!!!! It is being used for far more than it was intended and still works. But, it won't for very long if we keep messing with it. That's a whole 'nuther' thread.
What I'm getting at is your leader wants us to trust what little many people have left to the same bunch of snakes that can't (won't) protect your communities' biggest assets.
We have to look at the overall picture and how all this ties together. Can you (as in Youse guyz) handle your own finances better? Probably. But, to make them grow we have to trust others to do it collectively. I don't see too many people out there that I'm willing to gamble upon right now.
bum
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
I wont disagree with you on that
I gotta' go bring in some dry firewood between the rain squalls, snow showers, hail & thunder, then do some old retired guy stuff and walk to the PO box. Sun's out now for a bit.
Catch you later....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
This is the way untruths get started. GW did not want to take all ss and turn it to the stock market. People over 50 could not take part in this VOLENTARY program. You are a victim of scaremongers. Over time investments in the market are consistant winners. Ups and downs occurs, but over time you do well. This would have removed the government from its biggest liabilities. By leaving ss the way it is you have saddled our children and grandchildren with increasing tax bills.
""Over time investments in the market are consistant winners."" Really? I put a modest amount of money into the market some years prior to the dot com fiasco. I have kept the records on my computer for all these years despite the fact I finally sold every item off at a loss. I think right now it shows a 63% loss. Better clarify that statement of yours to say every investment that doesn't lose money in the market is a consistent winner. The rest are losers. I know , bad choices on my part . yada, yada, yada.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
If i rermember correctly, the choses were in index funds only, or funds that US employees could invest in. These would not be individual stocks.
Right, you have the freedom to invest in the market, but only in the portion of the market that makes money. gimmeee a break. That would last until it doesn't .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
since 1920
you think that income redistribution ias better (taxes)?
Yes I do .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
then as a socialist why don't you live in a socialist country?
I do .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
sir: no one said that
I was confused. I thought that you said that the stocks one would have been able to invest in under the proposed alternative plan for SS would only be those stocks that made money. My mistake. and My apologies.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
individual stocks are where the average person loses money. The average person is better off buying index fonds or ETFs. I told you individuoal stocks are for people who have the time and money to research before buying. I bet you bought stocks before you spent 3 hours minimun researching. I have also, but they tend to be large cap stock with the intent to hang onto for a long period of time. Money market funds would give you a better rate of return than SS.
Of course it is much better to own stock that make money. It becomes easier for persons to buy and sell.
""By leaving ss the way it is you have saddled our children and grandchildren with increasing tax bills.""
Putting personal politics aside, that statement alone ignores the obscenely large debt we are incurring daily on behalf of a "push for world democracy" by our current leader. With all that is going on, this war isn't even being factored in to any of the nations ills, YET! If SS is saddling my grandchildren with debt then what do call the fight against "terror" debt? We will have to face this new debt soon. We cannot ignore it and relabel it as something else.
As I said, that's a whole new thread.
I know, MY social security won't be affected but that is no reson for me to support any kind of plan that will place further stress on individuals. Not a legacy I'm likely to encourage. At this point I completely disagree with the idea....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
t his obscene debt is not large in relation to GDP. It is like you using a credit card. Do you know the what holds the largest debt of US?
The problem with SS is the government borrowing from it and putting in a an IOU.
You see the IOU is yours to pay back, the government is in the collection biz.... they are not a profit center.
So you get to pay taxes to repay the loan for the money you borrowed from your SS savings. Kinda neat how that works, isn't it?
The problem with SS is the government borrowing from it and putting in a an IOU
Except that the system is not that simple. The first year benefits were paid out, there was no "balance" to pay from, so the system is in the classical "arrears" of any federal budget item.
So, it becomes a tax on the employed to support the retired. Not a big deal if there are 7-8,10 employees paying in per beneficiary. Get the number down to 1-2 per beneficiary, and it's not quite so sanguine.
Especially since there really are only three things you can do at that point. Reduce the benefit paid to benficiaries. Borrow money to pay the difference between collectable and owed. Or, do nothing and pretend Rome is not afire.
To pay a benificiary minimum wage with only two employees per benficiary winds up being right about $520 per month taxed from the employees each. That $1040 per month is not very much for the beneficiary to live off of, either.
That's why a state-operated 401(k)-style account system, using only 6% (half what is collected) of pre-tax income would make a much more palatable system.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Just look at your front yard (or is it back yard) at Galvaston.Years ago govenerments could opt out of SS. And Galvaston did.IIRC they invested in a guarantee income plans (basically bond funds and the like) with the equivalent of the amount going to SS.Retires where getting more after retiring than they got when working.Later that option was removed so that they could "boost" the number of people working per retiree, but that just makes it worse at the other end..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
govenerments could opt out of SS. And Galvaston did
Yep, and it was far too sucessful. The Public Employee unions hated it beyond description, not least of which for the lack of power the union could offer people free to plan for real retirement. The power-that-be were perennially unhappy to not have a giant pool or retirement money to "borrow against" for muni projects the electorate would not vote for, too.
I've runn the SSA numbers out. If I wait until 67.5, I get half what I make now, potentially to the end of my days. Now, subtracting a house note, but adding in saving for the tax bill, and factoring in inflation, without a real source of 40 hr/wk income, I'd be right out in the street. That's some security.
Put my 6% into a plain-jane IRA every year, and that $1800 a year would add up to something useful to me.
Oh well, keeping junior aides in off-the-rack designer suits probably a better use of my money . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)