Here in Bakersfield, I don’t think I could get away with charging for estimates. No one does, and I’m usually underbid as it is. I get maybe one out of 20 jobs I bid, and this on small repair/remodel/handyman jobs. The bootleg economy is strong here – you know, no license, illegal help, cash under the table, firemen and welfare recipients doing this on the side, etc., etc. OK – I actually don’t know how these people do it, but I know I figure my bids at $50/hr, and I just barely survive to pay my overhead for another week.
But I’m getting really sick of people calling for bids when they aren’t even in the ballpark of being serious about realistic costs. Recent examples from just the last month: Got a call from a guy who wanted a kitchen gut and replace all cabinets, with new granite countertops. His budget for labor and materials complete: 2k!
Another guy wanted a labor only bid on an office addition to an existing commercial building. Small, 10′ x 12′, – I figured: draw it up, put together a materials list, accompany him to purchase materials (his idea – he said he was a fanatic about using only the highest quality materials), excavate, form, pour and finish slab, framing, rough elec., hang door and install three windows, sheet metal siding and roof, hang and finish sheetrock inside, paint, finish elec. Bare bones, yeah, but he acted like I pulled a gun on him when I said 5k. Come on, is that really so high?
A lady wanted a bid on gutting a closet, adding a work countertop with upper cabinets, some new elec. for computer etc., task lighting under the cabinets. She was a repeat customer, so I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Drew up some cabinets, took them to my cab. guy for pricing, met the elec. on the job to show him what I needed to add and where we could tie-in to existing, figured my time and materials, final price painted and complete came in just under 2k – She said Wow, no way am I ready to pay THAT kind of money!
A guy fixing a beat-up old victorian (with an outbuilding that had a screened patio) to sell wanted me to paint both buildings inside and out (including the patio), some minor remodeling inside (remove a few walls, add a few), open walls for new elec. and patch upon completion (lath and plaster), hang new doors throughout using old jambs (dutchman in all the old hinge mortises because the hinges were about 100 years old and don’t match the size of new hinges), strip the sheathing down to the joists and re-sheath the floor in a couple of rooms, pour a new concrete stoop and steps in the back building, build a new wooden rail and handrail for the front porch/steps, remove all the windows and install new retrofit double-pane windows (provided by him) throughout. My bid was bare-bones at 10k, he asked would I do it for 8?
So I’m thinking of saying Yeah, I’ll give free estimates/bids if you let me know what your budget is for the project. That way, if the budget is ridiculously low, I won’t waste my time on a bid. And if you’re just asking because its fun to yank my chain, but you’re not serious about paying to get it done (i.e. have money available for the project), then I won’t waste my time. If you’re serious about paying for the work, have a rough idea of what you can afford, then I’ll invest some time into nailing down my bid price.
Otherwise, these tire-kickers are eating me alive. Am I off here? Any suggestions from you seasoned pro’s? (Remember, in spite of being in Calif., and in spite of recent growth, the economy here is largely depressed, an entirely separate economy from the rest of the state.)
“he…never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too” – Mark Twain
Edited 4/15/2006 5:06 pm by Huck
Replies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But I'm getting really sick of people calling for bids when they aren't even in the ballpark of being serious about realistic costs.
First thing is you need to figure out a way to qualify your customers. If they're getting 6 bids and let you know that upfont, don't bother. Ask them who you're bidding against. I have several competitors that I don't bid against as a professional courtesy. Use that as excuse.
I can't charge for proposals since I rarely do design (I do get paid by architects for consulting occasionally). But, if someone wants a price for a copper roof on a mobile home, I'm not to likely to bite. Don't be afraid to ask what the budget is for the project. If it's realistic, do some cyphering - if not move on.
My best business decision ever was to make myself available as a sub to the best GC's around and provide great customer service rather than buy a bunch of advertising and make promises I can't keep. I have a number of contractors that keep running plans across my desk that I have to bid (that also are maybe not the type of job I lust after), but I've been able to distance myself from the tirekickers. Point is: If you can find a couple of GC's that'll sub you for the type work you enjoy or excell at, try hooking up with them.
Good luck.
http://grantlogan.net/
First thing is you need to figure out a way to qualify your customers.
I agree - I'm working on finding ways to do just that.
Don't be afraid to ask what the budget is for the project. If it's realistic, do some cyphering - if not move on.
That's what I'm thinking - except I need to do it tactfully, without scaring them off.
If you can find a couple of GC's that'll sub you for the type work you enjoy or excell at, try hooking up with them.
Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. My past experience with GC's hasn't been all that positive, so I've been avoiding working for them. Maybe I could put some effort into finding one or two good ones I could work with (or for)."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Man, I feel for you. I hear the same thing from other friends of mine in the more rural areas of calif. The labor rate are all over the place. People are willing to work for $20 per hour, some will work for $15 cash. In the past, I have heard the same complaints about firemen (and teachers) too.
When I worked in SoCal, in an area near a senior retirement community called Leisure World, these people would go to ten or more places to get a bid on cabinet work. They had the money but would not spend it. They were stuck with the mentality of prices from the 50's and 60's. One guy once told me that they really did know what the value of things were, they just used it as their leveraging tool. I finally quit bidding work in that area.
How about trying to rustle up work with the local real estate companies? They usually want a reasonable price, but punctual/responsiblitly is thier first priority. Again, even some of these agents don't care if the "handyman" is licensed as long as they do the work.
huck.... huck ... huck....
on the old remodeling forum, there was a guy who would price the jobs right in the customer's living room.. he had a price book and everything broken down.. he'd walk them thru it , adding up the parts.. then he'd give them a proposal and ask for a deposit
no deposit and signature... he was all done
seems to me thta the type of jobs you're going out on could be pricved as you stand there... and don't be afraid to ask for a Premium Price
but it's just like the Yankees and Johnny Damon.. " Johnny, here's our best offer, but if you leave the table , the offer's gone"
Johnny thought it over.. he really wanted to go back to the Red Sox and see if they would sweeten their deal.. but he knew the Yankees were serious.. so he took the deal
if you don't have the self confidence to ask for a fee to prepare a Proposal, then you have to do something else..
1) qualify the lead over the telephone.. ask a lot of questions.. set the stage.. they gotta WANT you to come out to their job
2) ask a lot of questios as you tour the site and develop the scope
3) price it in your book RIGHT there.. any parts you're in doubt over.. double your worst guess
4) write up the Proposal and ask for the signature
5) if they want to think about it, tell them the next time you have to come out there will be a $150 Proposal fee.. they already got the free visit
6) what you are doing isn't working..... stop doing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>5) if they want to think about it, tell them the next time you have to come out there will be a $150 Proposal fee.. they already got the free visitWise words from a wise man. Make yourself the prom queen instead of the guy that want's to date her. Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery?
http://grantlogan.net/
Rick R. He was advertising his system for sell in one of the mags for a while. good concept, harder to implementRick, Sonny, the banker, Peter, Candi and some of the others on the old Remodeling Forum, That was some good schooling.
Barry E-Remodeler
that was them... what bunch of bananas that was...
good info and good threadsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
on the old remodeling forum, there was a guy who would price the jobs right in the customer's living room.. he had a price book and everything broken down.. he'd walk them thru it , adding up the parts.. then he'd give them a proposal and ask for a deposit. No deposit and signature... he was all done
I guess I need to develop some means of quick bidding. As it is, I've always done detailed breakdowns of labor and materials, even for small jobs. Which is time-consuming.
but it's just like the Yankees and Johnny Damon.. " Johnny, here's our best offer, but if you leave the table , the offer's gone"
Yeah, I like that approach. If I give a good offer, I resent them shopping my bid with the promise to call me later if they can't find someone to lowball me. Which happens a lot.
Qualify the lead over the telephone.. ask a lot of questions.. set the stage.. they gotta WANT you to come out to their job. Ask a lot of questios as you tour the site and develop the scope Price it in your book RIGHT there.. any parts you're in doubt over.. double your worst guess. Write up the Proposal and ask for the signature. If they want to think about it, tell them the next time you have to come out there will be a $150 Proposal fee.. they already got the free visit
I can see I have a lot to work on, but it all sounds like good advice. Thanks!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I also offer free estimates
to me, free estimates are not a proposal or bid, its an estimate
A lot of the time, I will go to thier home, after a little prequalifying on the phone.normally I dont like giving prices over the phone, but if I get a call, and its from a mobile home park, and they are calling to find out about a 50k sunroom, Ill give them a price right up front, and what Ill hear is,,,,,well thats half the price of my home, forget it
you know , tht spending 2 hours at their home would have been a killer of time
or if it si more then a 40 minute drive to the possible job, Ill ball park something over th ephone
otherwise
In most cases I can tell a homeowner, right there, in thier home, a pretty good starting price. And I ll let them know its a starting price, and it will be good meaning farily realistic.
we can tell right there, if its gonna be in budget, without asking them directly
Ill also let them know the difference, if they need drawings, itemized materilas ( such as brand names of toilets , faucets lights) and they want to pick those out, if they want wood floors, what kind, same with tile, . For me to take that kind of time, that costs money. And Ill let them kow that
example:
Yes we can do this kitchen, it will be approx 10k for oak cabinets and formica counter tops, about 3k will get you pretty good appliances. Stainless steel sink and moen faucet , a few recessed lights, , dryall repair, vinyl floor covering, we can be near 25k
Now if you want to upgrade or downscale from that, we can price out granite counters, cabinet options, stainless appliances, under cabinet lights. But for that we will need to get a contract going that pays for the time invested in figuring out your final cost and getting a calender set up and locked in with the sub contractors etc.
I have had it backfire, I think, asking them up front, in a direct way, what is your budget, as for me, if I went into a car dealer and said, well I can only spend 25k on a car, that car is gonna be 24,999, and Ill wonder if Im getting burned. I think alot of homeowners are the same way, feeling, if they tell you up front, I only have 25 k for a kitchen, they might feel your gonna say 24,999
So I think, with my method, listening to them, telling them what is a starting price, youll know ,right there if you have to adjust down ( and maybe walk) or lets go higher, youll have agood idea what theri budget is, with out saying, "well how much you got"
of course those are all my opinions, and Im not a rich guy, so I can be way off
just my 1/2 cents worth
A lot of the time, I will go to thier home, after a little prequalifying on the phone.normally I dont like giving prices over the phone, but if I get a call, and its from a mobile home park, and they are calling to find out about a 50k sunroom, Ill give them a price right up front, and what Ill hear is,,,,,well thats half the price of my home, forget it. You know that spending 2 hours at their home would have been a killer of time.
Prequalifying on the phone. That's what I've got to learn.
In most cases I can tell a homeowner, right there, in thier home, a pretty good starting price. And I ll let them know its a starting price, and it will be good meaning farily realistic. We can tell right there, if its gonna be in budget, without asking them directly
Guess I need to develop my skills in this area.
I have had it backfire, I think, asking them up front, in a direct way, what is your budget, as for me, if I went into a car dealer and said, well I can only spend 25k on a car, that car is gonna be 24,999, and Ill wonder if Im getting burned. I think alot of homeowners are the same way, feeling, if they tell you up front, I only have 25 k for a kitchen, they might feel your gonna say 24,999
OK, I see your point. I wondered about that, and have lost a few by asking up front what is their budget.
So I think, with my method, listening to them, telling them what is a starting price, youll know ,right there if you have to adjust down ( and maybe walk) or lets go higher, youll have agood idea what theri budget is, with out saying, "well how much you got"
Good info. Thanks for responding."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Huck, you have to start asking a whole lot more questions on the first phone call. That call should take at least ten minutes and up to 30 minutes. It could end in as little as one minute if you don't like what your hearing when you ask your first question.
Draw up a script of the pertinent questions that you should be covering in your initial phone call.
Some of the questions should be fluff...bridge builders. Some are dream builders. Some are financial. Some are finding out where the lead came from. Some are determining the budget.
We offer up budgets on our roughs before we take the plans and I can do an estimate on most plans in minutes. Sometimes I can do them in 30 seconds but I still want to know what they are thinking.
blue
you have to start asking a whole lot more questions on the first phone call. That call should take at least ten minutes and up to 30 minutes. It could end in as little as one minute if you don't like what your hearing when you ask your first question.
OK, this is where I'm going to start. Improving my phone questioning skills.
Draw up a script of the pertinent questions that you should be covering in your initial phone call.
Sounds like a good starting point.
Some of the questions should be fluff...bridge builders. Some are dream builders. Some are financial. Some are finding out where the lead came from. Some are determining the budget.
OK, thanks for that overview. Helps me prepare what I want to ask.
We offer up budgets on our roughs before we take the plans and I can do an estimate on most plans in minutes. Sometimes I can do them in 30 seconds but I still want to know what they are thinking.
Wow, my work is so vaired I've never been able to work that fast, except on a few items I do frequently. Thanks for responding."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
I do mainly small jobs also. I try to qualify on the phone where I can but it isn't quite as simple for those of us doing stuff under 5k.
The reason is you have so many variables of translation at that price level. But.....doesn't mean you can't make it better.
Bob Kovacs told me about having a ready made price sheet for bathrooms. We do quite a few of those in the mid price range so I made sheet that tells me what a vanity, based on size and finish, costs installed. And all the other items in a bath. I can figure one in 10 minutes right at the house and carry a short contract that I can fill in the blanks on site.
I also have a list of standard items that I price and will give an amount over the phone. These prices are a safe price since I can't see it. Example; ceiling fan, we will install one for $100 plus any material needed. We can usually hang one in 90 minutes sometimes 2 hours.
Drywall and such you can price by the sf. I figure $2-3 a sf. Higher than the guys doing 3 rooms but we rarely do. Same with trims etc. Once you get the price sheet made up you can take an hour or so and update it from a home center web site. Anytime I see we are starting to do stuff on a regular basis I try to add it to the sheet.
This still doesn't cover the closet into an office type job but when you are figuring your prices on some of that stuff you can still cut time by using your price sheet. It is really valuable when you are busy as hell and have little time for quotes since it really speeds up the process.
Also since you have a computer I have in my favorites the most of the places or manufactures sites that I can go to to price something at retail. Often (like faucets) I know the multiplier so I go to the site, identify it and figure the price. Hope this helps. Sure has made it easier on me. DanT
Huck, everyone's given you excellent information, but let me give you a couple of ideas that have helped me eliminate the "tire-kickers".
First, when I was remodeling and doing additions in specific, I would always ask a few questions after finding out what they wanted, how large, etc.: 1. Do you plan on pulling a permit? (Required) 2. Do you have plans? (Required for #1) 3. What is your budget? and 4. Will this be a competitive bid or are we the sole contractor? If the answer is yes to the former, I ask how many bids. If it's over 3 bids, I ain't wasting my time b/c in all honesty they're price shopping.
I always ask them if they planned on having the permit pulled because the contractor has to be licensed to pull it; no license means no permit (and no guarantee of legitimacy), not to mention it may signal they're trying to get cut-rates on labor (especially in trades like roofing). I ask for plans b/c there is no way I can get a permit without them, and no two bids will be apples-to-apples.
It was hard at first to ask up front for their budget, but since most of my clients are referrals they know I'm not raping their wallet, and like others have said, it's not worth even pursuing if the prospect's budget is unrealistically low.
The last question I don't always ask, but sometimes I'll play it, like if they say "Well I already have 2 bids and they were cheaper" or something like that. Or if it's a particularly large or detailed project--I'm not giving a free estimate on a 2,000 SF turn-key addition...not in this lifetime!
I've run long on the tooth, but good luck and don't be afraid to ask the tough questions!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
There's not one of us Breaktime readers who couldn't learn a bunch from reading this thread.
I respect ya'll's opinion, greatly!
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
When a potential client invites me to submit a quote, the first thing I ask for is a copy of the plans and specs. If they can't provide these, then we're not really talking about "estimating" - we're talking about design and spec writing. No one in their right mind should be doing this for free.
I explain to the client that I will - for a fee - provided them with a detailed breakdown of the scope of work. They may use this to shop for quotes from as many contractors as they like, and be confident that they're comparing apples to apples. This is money well spent, and puts me on their side whether I win the project or not.
As for whether to bid, it depends on my sense of the client's priorities. I explain up front that the clients who do hire me are people with high expectations of quality and service, who insist on working with a LEGITIMATE contractor. Look for their reaction to this (verbal or otherwise).
If they seem skeptical, or indicate that PRICE is their top priority, then I pass on the job - but nicely.
now here's a story that will cheer up all them folks that has been underbid.....Didn't happen to me, I heard it from the fella who percipitated it.Seems like , in another place and time, folks would come into this glaziers shop (Certified journeyman, bonded locksmith, general all round honest person) and ask for quotes on window replacements. V would give em, but never close, and being a small town, soon found out that his "businessman" competitor was "winning the bids" It didn't take him long to clue into the scheme. The fella was taking v's quotes and saying "I can beat that by 10% no sweat", and folks bit. So one day, perhaps in a foul mood, V got asked to to a quote on replacement of a house of windows, which he dutifully and diligently went out and measured, and when he gave the fella the price, the client asked for a written quote. Now V had some kinda inkling that this was a "shop around" type of fella, so he said no problem, but he deliberately misspecifieded the sizes. He didn't get the job. Next spring, he drives by this fellas place and sees a plethora of windows laid out on the front lawn and at least 4 people running back and forth from window to window with tapes in hand. Turns out that his "businessman" competitor had beat his price by 10%, but hadn't even bothered to come out and measure. took the measurements offa v's quote. V laughed and laughed and laughed. His real sharp and clever competitor got caught with his pants down dancing to a 5 figure tune......Sh*t sometimes happens to them that invite it.Eric in Cowtown
Huck, I sypathize with you, the bidding and pricing can be the hardest part. My method, not liked by many, but works okay for me, is just quote them hourly rate that you are happy with, plus whatever materials cost. You won't get many big fat easy paychecks, but won't lose much either. It sounds to me like you need to weed out the customers from the cheapskates. Emphasize insurance, licenscing and reliability. If that don't matter to them, you probably don't want to work for them anyway. Good luck
Dan