built 2 sets of stairs off 2 decks, each staircase has 8″ risers and 13″ treads. Strangely, this guy is experienced, although, not in stairbuilding. I informed my bro of the correct stair formula(2r x t = 24″ to 25″) and told him to have his builder rip ’em out and rebuild ’em. Would you reccomend the same? Seems a nobrainer to me.
Edited 3/5/2005 9:06 am ET by tim
Replies
tim.... these are exterior stairs...
seems to me they are pretty nice.... the 8" is maybe a little high... but they work well with the 13" tread
are they uncomfortable to climb ?..
i like a broad exterior stair.. they often become seats ...
bottom line.... no, i wouldn't rip them out... it sounds like the builder was trying to build some elegant stairs
Edited 3/5/2005 8:41 am ET by Mike Smith
usually when I do a broad exterior step like that it is no more than three stps or maybe four, and I go to about 14.5" run. This is popular where you have little old ladies. They take one step at a time anyway, and the braoder platform is more comfortable for them. The 8" rise is as bit more challenging though.
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If I'm going to use a 13" tread I"ll adjust the risers to 5 1/2 " to 6", my point is the tried and true stair formula (2 r + t = 24" to 25") is there for a reason... to use ... sure you can vary slightly , but this, to me is not a slight variation.
Right, I been thinking and all my broader steps are about 6" rise
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Mike, they just don't feel right, to me, my brother, his wife and don't know about the 3year old. I've been in the bus. for 20 years and I never would have built with that riser and tread combo, 8 x 2 = 16 + 13 =29 . I think he screwed up, he could have had 7" risers and 10 1/4" treads and had a similar run, plus they would have followed the formula. Why is there even a formula ? To me it's a matter of right versus wrong, and i think he's wrong, is there ayone out ther that agrees? Thanks for the feedback though.
"To me it's a matter of right versus wrong..."
And how long did you say you had been in the biz? What about a situation that requires a wider tread to conform to the grade? What about the "little old lady consideration" that Piffin points out? What about handicap considerations? What about every other consideration known to mankind that can... and will... be thrown at you?
Yea.. the riser is too high, IMO. And while I haven't looked up the EXACT code and variances for your area... my guess is that it is probably too high by code. But that formula you quote is a "rule of thumb"... not code by my edumicated guess. If I used every "rule of thumb" in every situation... I would have the funkiest looking and disfunctional PITA stuff out there. And I probably would violate a code or 15 along the way.
Would I have them redone? If they violate code... yes. If they feel funky... yes. If they don't meet some "rule of thumb"... no.
Rich, why is there "a rule of thumb", I think the reason is that it's a comfortable number for most people in most applications. I said there is room to vary! The grade had nothing to do with these stairs, the ground is flat. The builder picked a tread and riser combo and built them, he was given a rise of 49",and a pad was poured at 60" at it's furthest point. he has basically 2 options- 8" risers and rake some dirt to take up the extra inch or 7 " risers, my preference would be 7". he now has tread considerations he chose 13 , I would have chos en a 2 x 12 ( 11 1/4" ). My formula # is 24 1/4", His 28", is there a right vs. wrong here, Yeah, I think so.
If the customer does not like the steps, then he/she should have them replaced. You are not the customer, it's not your call.
A rule of thumb is used as a general guide to something. It's a memory aid to get you in the close ballpark. It's not gospel. You seem to be trying to hang too much on the rule of thumb formula.
Was it a permitted installation? What did the inspector say?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
i'll agree that there is room for variation, and the stairs may be in conformance( they sure don't feel right). I would never have built those for my clients, and I would have informed them of the stair #'s (formula) to see if that was acceptable.
so did anyone review the plan / design with the builder?
your brother/ the city / you/ ?
Or did you rely on his expertise, left it up to him, you know, as a professional, to provide the best product he could come up with?
If it don't comply with code, rip it out. No question.
But if it don't "feel" just right, blame the designer and move on. Live with it or pay him to produce another set of stairs, designed by other, that achieves the feeling you want.
Sorry guy's, but this ain't a dress shop. I ain't gonna build something so you try it on to see it fits you right.
Proper planning on paper.................................
He relied on his exprtise. I would have talked with my clients before building them, asked them what they wanted... I still think that code or not they are unacceptable. If they were my stairs , he's rebuilding them. If I have any doubt, i ask my customers, i talked to my brother today and he told me the builder said my stairs wouldn't work, I'll get more detail when he visits later today.
Ed, You are right! I admit it. Has'nt gotten the c.o. yet
Edited 3/5/2005 10:32 am ET by tim
I'm definitely with you on this one... with 49" of rise the 7" tread is so obvious it's painful. If he had 16" of rise then I would understand the 8" as opposed to 5-5/16", but exterior deck stairs are meant for leisurely climbing and 8" is too high for that. The builder either doesn't know what he's doing, in terms of how stairs feel and are used, or he does know and he just did it wrong and doesn't want to rip it out.
It's bad form and bad customer service. If the inspector will pass it, then he has half a leg to stand on... but it's the wrong half.
I built a deck for some folks some years back, and had a similar situation. There were only four or five steps, and I had the option of maiking the risers about 8 inches, or 6 3/4 or something. I thought one less tread would look better, not sticking so far out from the deck. So I used the higher number and built them. The homeowners came home, took a couple of trips up and down the steps, and didn't like them. "Too high to step," they said. They said they would be carrying groceries from the car to the house via the back deck, and that they would much prefer more shallow steps. I tore them out and replaced them.I always try to stay around 7 or 7 1/2, but if I have to decide between going higher or lower, those steps I built twice always come to mind, and I go with the lower steps. Especially if there is an elderly person in the home, or who visits. As others have said, this is your brother's call, and guidelines are merely guidelines, but 8 inches really is too high to build a step when you have a choice. If your brother and his wife feel uncomfortable on it, he should tear it out and build it again.
Allen in Santa Cruz
That is high for that many treads, especially if there is ever snow or ice there.
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three things:
1) the 8" is a tad high for exterior... my favorite is 6"
2) the IRC code says max 7 3/4".. but in Rhode Island this is amended to 8 1/4"
3) Architectural Graphic standards has a chart (think it's termed a "nonograph" ) for the relationship between treads & risers...
it says the MINIMUM riser is 5"
also it breaks stairs down into interior and exterior.. on exterior here are SOME of the relationships..
R5 / T 16
R6 / T 13 1/2
R7 / T 11
they also state an alternative formula for EXTERIOR stairs:
[ 2 (riser ) + tread = 26 ]
eg: 6" riser....... 2x6 + T = 26, so tread would be 14"
bottom line.. if your code allows 8" riser, then your brother's builder is in conformance, and has gone in the direction of exceeding code..
if your code doesn't allow an 8' riser , then the stairs are not in conformance
if you want a copy of that nomograph.. send me your fax #
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
my irc (2000) gives max riser of 7 3/4"......(192mm). irc #314.2.
What's the total rise of the stair?
here on LI in NY code for normal stairs is 8" rise..(although they can be shorter..treads are usually 12"
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
Tim, I subscribe to the theory: " if it feels right, it probably is right.".
IF it feels wrong, then you probably should change them. You might use the building inspector to help you out on this one. Are they technically correct for your locale?
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Why didn't your brother just have you do the job?
i live an hour away, which is no problem. i originally had the job 1200 sq. ft. two story addition, but was diagnosed with cervical stenosis and herniate disc at c-3 c-4, had fusion and was laid up for 3 months
Given that info, are you sure you aren't thinking with your emotions and from frustration and back pain or meds here? It gets harder to see your viewpoint as objective in this thing.While the layout is marginal, if it is to the local code, and they relied on his judgement to build them, and if it were me building them, I would have to get paid again to rebuild, especially with a waylaid BIL inspecting and advising behind the scenes.If it feels wrong, it is right to rebuiild, and depending on the customer and their attitude, I might re-do it for free. i don't generally make the wrong judgement call on this kind of thing, but you can bet your bippy that I would not tolerate being told to cedee to demands at the advice of a family member who might be nursing frustrations of his own.
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yeah it's the meds .... that's funny, I don't know the local code he's gonna check monday . Actually the guy's quality of work is definitely very good, I'm just harping on this .... as of now i'll let it go, i'm back to 100% and working again.
glad to help, hope to hear the outcome.
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I think Tim is an actual competent builder but I can't resist: I always love it when my client says his brother wieghed my work and found it wanting.:)
Alan, I never find anything wrong when I casually inspect my friends or familys work that was done. Nothing good can come from it. All they will do is find out that there house is substandard and then have to live with it forever. If I'm not willing to fix it myself using my own money for repairs, I just keep my mouth shut and find things to compliment...after all, when they ask my opinion, that's all they want to hear anyways!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
c'mon guys, the guy does do really nice work, it's the stairs i have a problem with... you guys are tough
If you knew the answer... why did you ask?
Seems to me the "summary" consensus is that if it doesn't muster code... the builder rips 'em out and replaces them gratis. If the design called for something different.. and he ignored the plans... he rips 'em out and replaces gratis.
If they don't feel right... rip em out and replace 'em... then pay the man for the new set of steps.
Contrary to popular belief... builders are not perfect. We sometimes have to make a call on something... and it might not be the best call... but unless we are out of code or we are doing something that is so outrageous that even an amateur hack would laugh... we get paid.
In this case... I believe that each of us agrees with you that the riser is too high... but not to the point of outrageous. I DON'T agree with you about the width of the tread being too wide... I like wide steps and so does every customer that I have built a wider tread for.
Bottom line... if your family folks don't like them... change them. But if you try to convince me of a discrepancy on my part... when I have met code and have followed whatever plans are given me... I get paid for the change.
Now... if you are polite when you explain that you simply don't like them, and would like them changed... most likely I do it for the cost of materials and my labor is free. If you try to present some cockamamie "rule of thumb" and "expect" me to make the change BECAUSE of that rule of thumb... there is no way I will be receptive.
If that makes me a tough one to deal with... so be it. You mentioned above that "right is right"... well in my book, "right" is sitting down with me and simply explaining you don't like the steps and wish to have them changed. In that scenario... I will bend over backward to make you happy. In a situation when someone says "this rule of thumb says you are a POS builder and I demand they be changed you scmuck"... that is wrong, and doesn't even come close to the definition of "right is right". Add in "my brother says" into that scenario... and I will be even less receptive. Bring brother into the sit-down... and I will be in complete shutdown mode... as I did not contract with the brother... I contracted with my customer. I had no idea I had a construction supervisor in the mix. If I would have known that... I would have bid 10% more on the job (IF I took the job in the first place).
In case your wondering... many many of us have had the "brother effect" used to try to leverage us into this that and the other thing. Some of us have even bent to such before... and found out that it opens us to the never ending stream of requests for freebies and such. To the point now... when a potential customer says "my relative is a carpenter (builder, insulation worker, "been doin handyman work for 20 yrs")" ... I recommend they hire the relative to do the work and most times walk away. I'll never make them happy by "brotherly standards".
Edited 3/5/2005 5:00 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
Rich, I feel your pain about that "brother" thing.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I apprenticed with a gentleman who would often state;
"By the time we get done talking about it, we could have had it done."
..........nuff said.
Eric
edit: that was meant for all.
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Edited 3/5/2005 8:13 pm ET by Eric Paulson
I've just "been there, done that" one too many times...
I have no problem if the "pick your relative" wants to sit down with me at the beginning and go over details. In fact... I would welcome different perspectives. Same if the "pick your relative wants to be involved in the process on a pre-scheduled basis for reviews... no problem.
However.. when the "pick your relative" only wants to criticize at a distance.. that is where I get more than a bit upset. The "pick your relative" has not been privy to discussions with the customer; is not familiar with the full scope of the work; has not been there when the lumber truck was stuck in the mud; was not there when the plans were approved; was not there when the inspector was two days late (and the customer was blaming me for the delay); was not there when the portajohn was set in the middle of the lowest point on the site the day before a major rainstorm; was not there when the drywall driver shows up with no helper at 5:00pm (delivery included lumping the drywall into the structure)... and the drywall crew was due at 8pm for a "trade-free" hang-n-mud session; was not there for the tirade from the inspector about his last inspection.. then takes it out on me by failing a plumbing rough for a piece of copper not being foamed in... even though the foam was put in WHILE the inspector was there; was not there during any other situation that would make "pick your relative" pee-pee in his pants.... however....
"pick your relative" wants to be a construction supervisor without experiencing all of the fun that comes with the job!
Like I said... IF I take the job with the knowledge that "pick your relative" is a carpenter/framer/builder/hardware salesman/.. or even worse... correspondence course home inspector... I add 10% on the front side... and maybe a "consultation fee for outside consultants".
Edited 3/5/2005 8:27 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
Edited 3/5/2005 8:28 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
That was awesome!
Sit down and catch your breathe now!I think the Earp brothers just rode into town.
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I missed the part about the home owner/check signer actually having a problem with this too ...
I have a little saying .... "if I wasn't there on decision day ... I'm gonna try my best not to nitpick" ...
this brother has no idea what went down.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
in hindsight, i wish i had posed this as a ..... what stair dimensions would you have with a deck 49" off the ground and the concrete pad at 60" out from the deck. i think if the majority had looked at it this way , you would not have been so defensive . i think the majorityof you would build the stairs closer to " the rule of thumb"formula than this guy did.
Re.. you last post.
Maybe very true... but still. I bad judgement call doesn't always mean it should be done over on the contractor's dime. I hope everyone is happy with the rest of the work. If a couple deck risers are all that there is to ruffle feathers.... seems like things are pretty close to being a success.
Tim,Around here in NJ the max is 8-1/4" Rise 9" min Tread for interior stairs. I would assume it the same for exterior, I know 8-1/4" rise is high but if it's Legal from where your brother is from this guy dosen't have to rip anything out, Period.If your brothers deck is 49" off the ground then the rise would be 8-3/16" Rise and 13" Tread, I doubt the "Rule of Thumb" thing will hold up. If the step is Illegal then he'll have to rip them out. Yes, he could've made them more comfortable but he didn't but if they're legal for him to rip out two sets of stairs and railings and replace them is probably not going to happen and nobody can make him do it.If this guy feels that he wants to satisfy his customer and wants their recommendation for another job and wants to replace them then it's up to him but again you can't tell your brother to tell him to rip them out if they're legal and think the contractor has to do it even though you or I wouldn't have done it.Joe Carola
Sure we would, but we'd have called every single play in the superbowl just right too. Just ask us.
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Tim, we are tough because we all probably have had to deal with third party advisors like you. You wander in with your own set of beliefs, after the fact, then stir up a hornets nest. Then, the contractor is stuck arguing the entire situation with them, while you are holed up somewhere sukking down beer and watching football.
If this is a tecnical code violation, then say so. If it's your preference, keep your nose out of it.
Tell me, do they like the stairs? Did they raise a concern, or did you offer it? Did you offer a "helpful" criticism without being asked?
I'm still looking to kick one customers uncle in the balls.....that guy cured me of my desire to remodel and I never met him! Did he know anything about houses? No...he was a Big Three auto employee but they believed everything he had to say about housebuilding.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!