Yesterday I came home to find that the GFCI for my bathrooms had tripped and wouldn’t reset. The house is only two years old, and I haven’t been playing with any of the wiring that is on that circuit. The only two things that have happened out of the ordinary lately are:
1. It was raining all day yesterday (I live in Las Vegas, so the rain is fairly unusual), and it is still raining today.
2. I was up in the attic running TV cable and power to an LCD TV in the master bath for my wife’s Christmas present the night before this incident.
I rechecked all the work I did, and nothing involved the wiring for the GFCI. For the power to the TV, I simply ran the supplied power cord behind the drywall and into the attic, then I plugged it into an ac outlet in the attic (not on the GFCI circuit). The holes I drilled were not near any of the GFCI wiring. I also looked all over for wet spots in the attic, and outside the house where the power comes into the house. Nothing was wet. I REALLY don’t think that either of the two factors above were involved, but I could be wrong.
Anyway, not being too smart about troubleshooting electrical shorts, I crossed my fingers that the problem was a bad GFCI outlet, went to the store, bought a new one and installed it. Apparently that wasn’t the problem, because the new one wouldn’t reset either. At this point it was late, so I decided to sleep on it and ask this forum how to troubleshoot the problem in the morning.
This morning I got up and went down to the garage and tried to reset the GFCI (although the GFCI protects the bathrooms, the actual outlet is in the garage next to the circuit breaker panel, so I also lost my garage outlets). Well, it reset and it has stayed reset for an hour now. Although I am hoping that the problem will stay fixed, I want to know how I could troubleshoot this problem in case it reoccurs, using a standard voltage meter. I can identify each item that is one this circuit, there are: 2 outlets in the garage, two outlets and a light in the master bath, one outlet and a light in the kids bath. Oh, and a fan in each bath. It would not be a problem to pull any of the devices out from the wall if that is required to troubleshoot.
I am willing to bet that there is a systematic way to find out where the fault is, so please help! Or, if you have ideas about why this fault popped up, and then disappeared, I’d love to hear from you.
Franco
Replies
Don't know why it tripped, but each bath should be on its own 20 amp circuit.
Bear
"For the power to the TV, I simply ran the supplied power cord behind the drywall and into the attic, then I plugged it into an ac outlet in the attic (not on the GFCI circuit)."
FIRST - THAT IS A NO, NO!
You should NEVER run an appliance cord (lamp cord, extension cord) behind the DW. It should only used where it is in plain sight.
What you need to do is to extend a circuit into that area.
There are "old work" boxes that you can install in DW and then run a romex cable to an existing circuit (such as that receptacle in the attic).
I suggest that you start off by getting a book or two. The first would be Complete Home Wiring" and another would be Rex Cauldwel's book. Look at HD or Lowes.
They will show yyou the basics of adding a circuit and also GFCI's.
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That is common practice in older houses where they used one GFCI for "everything". Code allowed it.
Newer code requires either one 20 amp circuit for all bath room receptacles or one 20 amp circuit for each bathroom (and can have the lights and fans on it). That at least limits the number of receptacles on one circuit. But they can still put the garage, basement/crawspace, and outside recptacles on one GFCI.
My guess is that there is one or more outside receptacle on the circuit and that got wet.
Also when they do this you get equipment that is GFCI protected that does not need to be.
The lights do not need to be GFCI protected. Nor does the bath fan unless it is over the tub or shower.
The best thing to do that this point is to "rewire" the circuit so that you have individual GFCI's at each receptacle that requires them.
I just had to do that yesterday. They had one GFCI for the garage and powder room. But it also controlled the garage door opener repectacle and when the opener jamed and overloaded it took out the GFCI also.
In the garage GFCI I am assume that you have two cables. One is the supply and connected to the LINE input on the GFCI and the 2nd cable went to the next outlet in the circuit and connected to the LOAD output from the GFCI.
Then what you want to do is to connect both cables to the LINE side. That allows the power to go to the next outlet without GFCI protect. But that receptacle will be GFCI protected.
Then replace each of the othe receptacles on the circuit with GFCI's. It is simple in concept, but can get a little tricky when you get to the bathroom depending on where they split off power to the lights and fans.
You pretty well covered all the bases. Salute.
What Bill said about putting in individual gfi's makes a lot of sense, the things are cheap enough to do this and you are about at the limit of devices "downstream". When they first should up some of us electricians got gfi testers to rat the nuisance trips. I had wired a friend's house and he had repeated trips in the master bathroom, I'd replace the outlet, he get mad, it would keep tripping, his wife would really get mad, I'd look at her hairdryer and curling iron,that sucker would keep tripping, just one outlet on the circuit. A couple of months after he stopped talking to me he called me up to get a beer....the guy had a temper so I figured he wanted to clock me one, nope a littl ways into a pitcher he confided that his wife had a secret adult toy with bad brushes and that outlet would trip at real inopportune times, so she would be loaded for bear when he came home and he turn around and unload on me.
Another reason to stick to battery powered toys. A shock, even the milder ones before the GFI trips, in some delicate areas could be traumatic. Developing a serious case of 'gun shyness' could be detrimental to familial peace and tranquility.As an electrician I go into peoples homes. The sights you see. More than a few times I have moved a bedside cabinet or chest of drawers and found 'mama's little helper'. Had one cute lady go through every hue of red I have ever seen. Hers was the size of the working end of a baseball bat. I quietly moved it away from the receptacle I needed to work on.Once moved a bed and a large roll away box underneath, lacking a lid, was exposed. It was stuffed with various toys, restraints, leather, rubber and whips. Her husband was a preacher. Crosses and Biblical saying scattered around a very neat and conservative house. I wondered what the congregation would say? Not that I would say anything that would come back to them. It would be unprofessional. None of my business. They called for help with an electrical problem not a judgment on their lifestyle.
Remember I'm working my way into going full time in this biz. I never found any of the things you have found (so far I haven't) but that you've found these need little "toys" all I can say is.....is THAT what I have to look forward to as far as stuff I've yet to experience???? Holy Cow!!!!
I guess like you, especially in the "preacher" segment of your post, I should do as you do, no judgement calls, but perform the service you were called for, laugh like the devil inside, and go about your biz. If came across a "toy" of such proportions as you found it might be a bit uncomfortable asking the poor female (and hopefully it is a female) to kindly remove it from my view, otherwise I won't be able to work from laughing at seeing it all the time. As far as the preacher who was into that stuff....while it's not funny......I can't help but LMAO. Just goes to show you never know about people even when you think you do.
What Bill said . . . outside outlet got wet. I had this trouble in a detached garage at my mothers house. A little extra attention to the outside boxes with some good caulk and it all worked fine. Isn't it funny that a little moisture will kick a GFCI ? ? What could they be thinking ? Looks like they could design them better than that ! ! !
;>)
Greg
Most likely your house is wired like ours, with both bathrooms and an outside outlet on a single GFCI. This would have been the norm during the 70s. Rain blew into the outside outlet and caused the GFCI to trip.
Get a cover of some sort for your outside outlet.
Fanco--
It's probably a nuisance trip. Could be one many reasons, and most are easy enough to fix:
1. Long runs of cable protected by a GFI, where the cable tightly stapled with uninsulated steel staples. It's a possiblity if the GFI is protecting a long cable run. This can cause enough capacitive coupling 'tween hot or neutral and ground to cause an imbalance in the current and trip the GFI. It's worse when the cable is wet or the humidity is high. The fix is to reconfigure the circuit so that the GFI doesn't protect load-side outlets, adding new GFI receptacles downstream (either at each outlet, or so that a GFI protects only another receptacle or two that are close by).
2. Similar to above, tight stapling or maybe a nicked cable, except there's actual insulation damage to the conductor insulation. This can cause a slight ground fault that only leaks enough current to trip the GFI when it's damp. This isn't good, as it may develop into a serious ground fault, and arc or heat up, causing a fire. The only way to diagnose this is to test the conductor insulation in each cable segment with a megohmmeter. A multimeter will not do the job. Megging out the cable is rarely done--usually only when all other options fail, and it'd be difficult to re-run cable for the circuit. But it offers the advantage that only the bad cable segment needs to be replaced (assuming that there's only one).
3. A combination of normal dust and moisture. This can allow enough leakage current across the receptacle face (or between the plug blades if there's something plugged in) to trip a GFI. Some GFI outlets are on the sensitive side. You're more likely to see a nuisance trip like this when the humidity is high, and it'll be worse if it's long string of receptacles protected by a single GFI--the leakage adds up. The fix is to either try replacing the GFI, or rewire & install additional GFIs as above. Sometimes, cleaning the outlets face(s) will fix the problem for a while; cut power to the circuit and give each outlet face a shot of the right kind of electronics cleaner, and let dry before powering up. As someone said, if there's an outside outlet protected by a GFI receptacle, the outside outlet is the most likely one to be the cause.
4. Bad GFI. You covered this by replacing the GFI. There's always a chance that the new GFI is bad, or on the sensitive side. Specs say that a GFI ought to trip at 5mA +/- 1 mA, within a certain time (something like 40msec, IIRC). A good quality GFI will be less likely to be overly sensitive. Buy a spec or commercial quality GFI receptacle, and expect to pay $12-15 for it. Some small hardware stores and the big orange box sometimes have real cheaply made stuff, and sometimes, a crappy GFI will trip if you look crossways at it. All of the units in the batch will be the same way, so buying two from the same store, at the same time, won't make any difference.
5. There might be a box in the circuit where the bare grounding wire and the hot or neutral wires are touching, and there's a nick in the insulation. When things get humid, the GFI trips. Not as dangerous as #3, as it's in a box. The fix is to take all the outlets protected by the GFI out of their boxes, and reinstall them, taking care that the grounding conductor is tucked away from the other wires. And look for obvious nicks on the insulation. This cause is prety common. There's no way to tell for sure, though, because pulling the outlets out of the boxes means you can't tell if wires were touching enough to cause a ground fault with high humidity.
I'd guess that because the problem coincided with the rain, it's one of the humidity-related things. If it doesn't recur, then that's that. If you want to do something about it, I'd reconfigure the circuit so that each GFI protects only itself, and add GFI receptacles to the circuit. Unless you think you damaged a cable during your work in the attic...nah, what are the chances of that?
And BTW, I second the advice not to run a low-voltage wire from a stepdown transformer inside the wall. Against Code, because it's not safe. As recommended, add an outlet and plug the wall-wart in near the T.V. If you want a clean install, there are ways.
Good luck,
Cliff
Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful replies. I want to answer the mail about the power I ran to the TV set first. I thought it was OK, because the power is 12 volts, it has a power cord with a transformer which is plugged into an outlet in the attic. The only portion of the cable which runs between the drywall is 12 volts. Then the cable comes out of a small hole in the drywall and into the tv. That's not OK? What exactly would I need to do to make it legal? I have no desire to put an electrical box in the wall there, and if I did I would have to find a way to take the proprietary Sharp Aquos plug, terminate it in the box, then find another cable with a proprietary plug to run from the box to the tv, a distance of about 2 inches. This would be ridiculous, IMHO.
Second, I just discovered that there is an outside outlet on the GFCI, too. It has a large plastic cover over it, but it is in an area where lots of water runs off the roof (no gutters here in Vegas). Maybe that's what it was.
Also, it has been very humid with the rain, so the associated problems detailed above could also be the problem.
Franco
Since the wire is only 12V, you're probably OK. The cord just needs to be fire resistant. I'm guessing the transformer qualifies as a Class 2 power-limited supply. It'll probably say so on the transformer itself. So long as the cord is listed for CL2 applications you should be OK. See Article 725 in the NEC.
Since the wire is only 12V, you're probably OK. The cord just needs to be fire resistant. I'm guessing the transformer qualifies as a Class 2 power-limited supply. It'll probably say so on the transformer itself. So long as the cord is listed for CL2 applications you should be OK. See Article 725 in the NEC.
Fire resistant? Is that something that would be standard for the cord that comes with a TV? It looks pretty much like every other appliance cord I've ever seen! These LCD TVs are frequently mounted on walls like a picture, so I'm sure I'm not the first to put the 12 volt power cord behind the drywall.
Anyway, since the GFCI reset two days ago it hasn't given me any more problems. When I was first troubleshooting the problem I made sure that all the outlets were not in use, EXCEPT I didn't realize that my two outside outlets were also on this GFCI. One of those outside outlets has two things plugged in at all times, my backyard stereo and the transformer for the landscape lights. My suspicion is that water or dampness got into that outlet, even though it has a plastic cover over it..... I guess I'll have to wait until it happens again to find out.
Franco
Your orginal statement was "2. I was up in the attic running TV cable and power to an LCD TV in the master bath for my wife's Christmas present the night before this incident."Now I don't have an LCD TV so I assume that was a 120 appliance cord. But several people have assumed that it was low voltage.Does the TV have a standard plug on the end that goes into the receptacle or does it have a transformer (wall wart) that plugs in to the 120?
The TV has a transformer. I plugged the transformer into a regular outlet in the attic and ran the 12 volt line behind the drywall. None of the 120 volt line is behind the drywall.
Frank
My guess is you have an appliance or power strip with a leaky or oversized capacitor that's shunting enough current to ground to trip the GFCI. Unplug everything from the circuit -- if it still trips them you might have a defective cable run with some bad insulation somewhere along the way.