Can any of you pros explain to me why some drywall hangers still nail it up instead of screwing it? Most of the drywall in my 2 y/o house was nailed and glued up and you sure can tell by walking around and seeing all the nail pops. Several people I work with have the same problem. Is it really that much cheaper to nail instead of screw?
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Those who only nail, or nail and glue in the field are doing it the old way. You'd be surprised how many still only nail. It depends on the area of the country you are in, here in New Jersey all new homes, well at least $150,000 and up, are screwed and nailed.
It certainly is not quality work - use more glue and less screws/nails results in less pops. These people need to be informed. The price for the nails is a little cheaper than for screws, about $10.00 for 8,000 pieces.
There should be definite instructions on how to do it the best way, unfortunately, there isn't.
Lets get back to my original question:
"Is it really that much cheaper to nail instead of screw?"
Here's an example; I have a 1,500 sq ft, 4 bedroom cape cod with 8 foot ceilings. How much more would screws and glue be rather then nails and glue?
I couldnt tell you what the cost difference would be, but If you get call backs to fix nail pops, or get bad word of mouth going around because of it, its probably actually cheaper to screw
MDG King,
Sorry for the curved wall, I was thinking of another thread!
You have about 230 twelve foot boards in your house, the extra screws may have cost about $8.00 more for the house, not worhth it at all. They should have glued it heavily and only one screw on the walls studs and two on the ceiling.
Don't know why the first floor celing went bad - could be that it got cold that day and the glue did not bind well, maybe the framing was bad and it dried too much or the floor/ceiling is flexing, or that the rocking crew had a beginner nailing it or maybe just too much weight on it or maybe they had the propane heater underneath it and choked the drywall.
One thing thoiugh, when you repair the pops, use tape over them - that's the optimum way of doing it. Just hitting them with a hammer and then finishing them may come back to haunt you as the rock underneath the pop nail is damaged.
Thanks for the great repair tip. I've already had a couple of returning nail pops. One of them was a nail that didn't even feel like it was into anything, so I pulled it out this time and repatched it. Should I use paper tape or mesh tape to cover the nail pops? (I know, a real amateur question but I don't want to have to fix it again)
Thanks.
Mfg King!
Use paper tape, mesh tape is garbage! Also now since your so cooperative, after you bang in the pop, clean it out with razor knife, then use all purpose finishing compound (the heavy one not the light one), on the first two coats. Really wanna go 200% - use Durabond on the first coat, then apply tape with Durabond for the second coat, and them skim coat them with a light finishing compound.
It's like a tooth with a decay - ya gotta clean out the damage before you repair it.
CAG,
screw them always :-)
Thanks for the great tips Zano. I'll give them a try and I'll let you know in 2 years if they work. I don't mind the extra effort of dollars, as long as I only have to do it once.
Hangers make more money nailing. If the job was glued then they had a poor job of nailing. I prefer screws alone. Screwing and gluing is over kill. Your main problem is a poor hanging job and often times the same hangers will hang most of the houses in the addition of homes. [ The reason for your neighbors]
Screw off what you have popped now . Hammer in the loose nails . Spot finish and paint.
The extra expense is the labor to answer your question. But its not too bad. .02 cents per foot labor here. .05 other places I've heard.
Tim Mooney
Tim,
You say screwing and gluing is overkill - how is that? When you glue a wall versus only screwing it, try to pull the rock off the wall that was glued. With screws only, the entire board pops off in seconds. When one glues, the entire stud and board is secured to eachother, when only screwing , all you have is is a few thousands of an inch difference between the screw shank and the screw head - not much holding power there.
How many screws do you use in the field - 3 or 4?
When using glue, the proper way to glue is in a "V" pattern, one screw in the field. PLus glue evens out the framing for a straighter rock job.
The best way to rock is to glue heavy and then remove the screws - I have done that in my house - no pops!
I know guys who can screw faster than others can nail,.
Glue it or screw it ;-)
Zano,
As a remodeler I love drywall only hung with nails comes off in seconds :) Screws arent to bad, but damn that glue, taking it down is pain in the arse!
When I have to hang it I use screws
Cag,
Ya need a grinder and a dust mask!
Mfg King,
Go to this site, read it and weep:
Also should have mentioned the greed factor. Either the builder or the drywll contractor does not know better or if he does, they don't care about quality. A carton of glue costs $26.00, an average house takes about 4 to 5 cartons, that's money in their pockets cause you didn't know if they used glue or not. Now for you to repair the pops, suggest you wait a full year, will cost a lot more and your new house is not what it what should be.
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/detailing_for_wood_shrinkage.html
gluing on drywall? never heard of that in 20 years
pity the poor renovator in 25 years
CAG,
Hope you only nailed them for your "friend" ;-)
"Friends come and go" - let go of those!
lol, no screwed the drywall there
Appropriate word isnt it....screwed
You threw out quite a bit at once. However we may be on separate wave lenghts.
Hanging is one of my trades. When I did it full time I was interrested in production. Im a builder now and Im interrested in production , with a low overhead. We nailed it for years and it worked. Done properly ,it still works. Too many hangers that werent finishers caused the nailing process to fail, not the nails. If framers did their job and the lumber was straight we wouldnt have the "Butt Hanger" . Same principal.
The fastest way for inexperienced hangers to make money is to screw off after its hung with nails. Simply because hangers arent finishers. Screwing after its hung is just as fast you are correct. I put four screws in the field and thats not counting the two nails in the edges. Four centered up in the sheet.
Glueing and screwing is the very best application there is ,bar none. Its the slowest method of hanging there is to date. It pays extra, but the bottom line suffers. Same example would be that when my feet leave the floor taping , my bottom line suffers although I charge more .
When I get a job done there are no popped nails or loose nails. Now lets separate loose nails and popped nails. Loose nails would be my fault . Popped nails later could be a number of things. I can frame a floor that is straight with 2x12s yp. By the time it gets around to ceramic tile its not straight. Obviously the lumber moved if the base didnt under it . After the wall studs cure in the wall , it will move also. The trusses will always move . One year lets the foundation settle if its going to. Not all men are created equal and neither are their standards. Point is the footing dug on up and what strengh was the concrete? Was there a soil test done? All truss makers arent in the same boat . What grade of lumber was used at what percent of moisture? The list goes on ,..... One heating season and one year to settle will tell some of the story. You might could have nailed your house and had tight rock. Ive done it too many times. On the other hand the job you have could have went to hell in a hand basket on another house.
I think this will answer your post , if not , we will try it again.
Tim Mooney
MFG King,
Exactly what is the height and width of this curved wall? Now, I see, it comes down to the butt joint!
Tim,
I agree with you in that wood shrinkage is the main culprit for pops and as that article on the link that I pointed, it all depends on how much the lumber has dried and what type it was. However, from my own experiences these are the reasons why screws are better than nails:
- When nailing the sheetrock hammer head destryos the sheetrock. When the hammer head hits the nail, twice at least, the rock underneath it is little bits and pieces. The integrity of the sheetrock has been destroyed. Sheetrock gets it's strength from the facepaper on the drywall, but when one hits it with the hammer, the rock is pulverized and the facepaper no longer is bond well to the rock. Now the screw does not do this because the bugle head of the screw compresses the rock. Also the area around the screw that is demeaned is not as large as the area is around the nail.
- When nailing in the field, if you put the nail dead center in the stud, it will hold well. However, to place the nail near or dead center in the center of the stud is only by chance as the wood is hardly ever straight. When the nail is at the end of the stud/joist or near it, the nail shank will chip the wood off and the nail does not hold. With a screw near the end of a stud, the screw holds better.
- Framing wood dries in its width not on its length. Since a nail is longer, and when the wood is drying it will pull the nail further in than a screw does.
- The main reason for pops is the drying/shrinkage of the wood. The less nails or screws used results in less pops.
- When using only glue, if we only could, as the wood dries it does not have a nail or screw to pull in. When a nail or screw goes past the facepaper of the sheetrock, that when a pop occurs.
- The best way to avoid pops is to use a double layer and laminate the second layer with glue or setting ccompound and remove the screws from the field.
For these reasons, I think, it's best to glue and screw as you mentioned. If the MFG KINg's house was glued and screwed, he would not have thiis problem. He may have a few here and there but not to the degree that he has now.
Uh, there isn't a curved wall.
Most of the pops I have are in the ceilings on the first floor, so truss movement doesn't make sense to me. I can't really find any upstairs. The reason I know it's glued and nailed is because I knocked a hole in a wall in the kitchen to build a pantry and the drywall was glued and nailed. My downstairs bathroom has (I've counted) 13 nail pops in the ceiling!
The article you offered clearly says "Pops are fewer and less pronounced with screws versus nails" so I wish all the hangers would use only screws.
Edited 2/6/2003 1:50:02 PM ET by MFG_KING
Actually Tim, some of my neighbors are nailed and some aren't. It seems to depend on the builder around here. I'm not sure the cost of the house has anything to do with it eather; My sisters house cost $300,000 8 years ago and she has more nail pops than I have nails! I wish Michigan building codes would demand all drywall be hung with screws. I can't even imagine how much time is WASTED fixing nail pops that could easily be avoided.
"Actually Tim, some of my neighbors are nailed and some aren't. It seems to depend on the builder around here."
Ive covered that in my reply to the other poster..
Tim Mooney
Living in michigan I have seen both nail and screw applications. I have seen just as many pops with nails and glue as compared to screw and glued. Most pops in the ceiling I believe are from the movement of trusses and framing material in the first 18 months. that is why nail pop repair is not enforced by the state. If installed properly I think nails and glue work just fine.
" Most pops in the ceiling I believe are from the movement of trusses and framing material in the first 18 months."
You are correct .
Tim Mooney
TIM,
I KNOW OF ONE TRUSS COMPANY THAT RECOMENDS TO PUT 2X4 BACKERS BETWEEN TRUSSES ON NONE BEARING INTERIOR PARTITIONS. AND NOT TO NAIL WITHIN 12" OF THE CORNER SO TO ALLOW MOVEMENT IN THE TRUSS WITHOUT CAUSING THE CEILING JOINT IN THE CORNER TO CRACK. THIS ALSO WORKS WELL WITH SCISSOR TRUSSES WHERE THE WALL FRAMING DRYS IN THE WINTER.
Glue doesn't work with a poly vapor barrier, and that's pretty common construction in my area (CT).
Still, for me it's screws only. Nails are banned.
Screws are a neccessity with green lumber, though by the time it's ready for rocking, the framing has dried out quite a bit.
Screwing doesn't have to be code, it just has to be written in the contract and the rockers have to be told FACE-TO-FACE. You'll still end up with some.
Most effective? "A single nail and there's no tip."<g>
As stated before a foundation will settle, lumber dries up, shrinks when the heat is turned on, a lot of things can happen to make nail pops - it's a new house! It has to settle! The lumber needs to dry - the whole building is a living organism it expands and contracts with the temperature changes in & outside the building. I don't think people realize this. It's like they want to instantly BLAME somebody - I'm not saying there ain't no shoddy contractors or subs- I just think sometimes people can have unrealistic expectations. I've heard of the glue method, but I've NEVER seen it. Homeowners don't hear about it till they get nail pops & then they say how come they didn't glue it off - well it costs more $$ - yeah the materials are cheap but the labor sounds like a total disaster & the hurry up & get it done because the painter is coming next week & the typical schedule is cut to close for the whole job . Now that they have the nail pops they say they would have paid more for it to be done, but reality is when the rock was going up there was no way they wanted to pay extra for anything in fact they try to get the absolute cheapest rock/spackle price out of you so gluing is out of the question. On top of that I don't know if gluing can guarantee zero nail pops.
I sure hope somene mentions the fact that "time is money". As in, the interest the contractor pays on the borrowed money to build the house in the first place. That's one big reason framing gets covered as quickly as possible, many times before the framing reaches ambient moisture levels.
Closing the walls in too soon is a contributer to framing movement, which is a contributer to nail pops. So is rocking the building before the siding is applied.
Hang it with nails, screw it off. Whatever you do, take your time and think it through. Ask yourself "what will be the best investment over the expected life of the building?"
Heck, what IS the expected life of a house anymore?
Disposable razor, disposable diaper, disposable house.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
The other...proper application of risk.
"time is money".
Jim ,that was part of my post about" bottom line suffering".
The builder wants to make as much money as he can make . The owner is normally trying to show how smart they are to save money. Seems thats the conversation of most folks building a new house. Their peers talk about it to them. Why dont they have those discussions about doctors? Of course I want as much money as I can make. Now the glue and screw thing effects my check book. I think the home owner could gain valuable experience hanging 5/8s firecode 12s on their 10ft ceilings and walls gluing it and screwing it . They could save all that money !
Gluing and screwing doesnt work a lot of the time anyway because its backasswards to haning procedure. If a hanger follows normal procedure the glue adds nothing because the hanger wants to screw the house later thus the glue being setup. To accomplish it right you have to screw every sheet while the cut man waits for you to move and give measurements. The fastest way to hang is get the hanging done and then screw off, just like roof decking.
In God we trust all others pay cash. And lots of it.
Tim Mooney
Edited 2/6/2003 11:07:41 AM ET by Tim Mooney
This is a little off the main track of discussion, but glue seems to be a regional thing, as I recently found out. Seems in Vermont, no one has heard of gluing. The owner of the largest rock supplier in the area has not heard of it being used and does not stock any adhesive. Whereas in Pa. it is somewhat univeresal. So if someone has to learn to use glue in their production situation, it's going to cost a lot.
Ken
It does not require a lot except for the cost of the glue. While one rocker cuts the board, the other glues it, takes only about a minute. They have this orange quart gun that's a breeze to use. Further, since you use less screws, that also makes up the time.
Mfg. King,
Pleasure to help you out, just sorry that your new house looks that way. It's definitely a shame that many do not do the best they can, or are cost conscious . One of my pet peeves is that there is no written guideline on how to best install drywall. If someone asked me to install it without using glue, I would not accept it, it's just me, I want to do it the way I would do my own house.
So you thought that the Enronian philosopy is only in big business or on Wall St., heck no, look at the EIFS fiasco - it was the installers who took shortcuts and what a mess they made.
Sounds like a nice place to live.<G>
Tim Mooney
Tim,
I'm a dyrwll sub, we do steel stud framing, drywall, ACT, install doors.
I was reading the archives last night on drywall, the discussion with the guy from Michigan who said they don't use any nails or screws in the field when they glue that was a goodie! He was right, but I'd put a few in the field and then remove them in a day or two.
Noone pays here more for screwing rather than nailing.
I meant to reply email and madea mistake . The reason I deleted the post .
I had a problem with GCs putting more and more of an unpaid load on the drywall subs. Here they have been fighting paying for metal returns since they started wrapping windows. Long story.
Welcome to Breaktime.
Tim Mooney
Edited 2/7/2003 11:06:43 AM ET by Tim Mooney
"It depends on the part of the country you're in..."
Two words about fastening sheetrock; Earth Quakes
In Alaska I was taught never to glue rock, as it may have to come out 5, 10 years down the road, or tomorrow, from leaks in plumbing behind rock (or freezing pipes). Down here in the tropics, I love to glue rock because of high humidity. But always screws, for as long as I've been able, both locales.
"If left is wrong, then right is the only thing left, right?"
This about nail pops. House is 2 1/2 years old, 2 story. 2x10 southern yellow pine joists for 2nd floor, 2x8 SPF ceiling joists above 2nd floor. There are nail pops along almost every exterior wall that the joists butt into on both 1st and 2nd floors. The pops are all right at the wall where the ceiling rock is nailed into joists. There are none where it's nailed into deadwood, Around here, all sheetrock perimeters get nailed and the fields get screwed off later, no glue. I'm not seeing the physics in this, but I sure do see the pops. Howcome this happened, and how would I prevent it in another house? EliphIno!
Go with doug fir lumber instead of pine - pine is too soft and too wet! That's the best that I can answer