I’m just finishing construction on my new detached woodshop. For the windows I installed Pella Proline casement windows in unfinished wood. The building is 2×4 framing and the jambs on the windows are made for the 2×4 framing with 1/2″ drywall. Unfortunately after the drywallers were complete I discovered that there are areas around my windows where the drywall sits up to 1/4″ proud of the the window jamb. I want to install Craftsman style wood casing around the windows but I’m at a bit of a loss as how to get the casing to meet up with the jamb and still sit parallel to the wall so that it doesn’t look cockeyed where the butt joint meets the stool of the top casing. I’ve considered trying to scribe a filler piece, or hollowing out the back of the side casing (kind of like a stool) both of which would be very time consuming. There must be an easier way.
I’m not sure if the trimmers just weren’t straight or if it’s just poor drywall work, but it’s driving me crazy. As an experienced woodworker I figured casing the windows would be easy, but this has thrown a bit a wrench in the works. Any help would be appreciated.
Here’s a link to my blog about the shop: http://lumberjocks.com/jocks/Loogie/blog/3244
Replies
One way would be to buy oversize extension jambs, then scribe each one. For example, if the wall was 2 X 4, buy the jambs for 2 X 6 and scribe the excess to match the contour of the wall.
It's hard to tell where the extra thickness is coming from sitting at my computer but there are three possile contributing factors.
1 - jack and kingstud out of alignment. if the jack (or trimmer) is not perfectly flush with the king stud the wall gets swollen right off the bat. 1/8" misalignment equals 1/4" swell in the assemly.
2 - if the crew cut out the rough openings with a sawzall rather than chalked them and cut neatly with a skill saw or used a plunge bit on a router the resulting fuzz can prevent the window from properly seating on the house wrap.
3 - If the insulation is fiberglass and is face stapled (per energy star ie. correctly) the tabs and staples can contribute to holding the drywall off the studs and cause some minor slack in the fit of the drywall.
What to do? try pulling the sash and using a couple of bar clamps on some 2x4's to snug the window in tight against the sheathing and to snug the drywall in tight against the studs and jacks. If this brings the jamb extension out to flush with the drywall you'll have a solution, if not it's in the framing and the only thing to do is rip up a bunch of 1/4" x 3/4" jamb extensions. (ugly) Is this paint or stain grade work?
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
As it turns out, the drywall is proud at the tops of all the windows but it's pretty much fine at the bottoms. It looks like the windows must lean out just a little (poor installation technique I guess). When I used a clamp, as ShelterNerd first recommended, I was able to pull the top of the window back in flush and I drove 2 1/2" finish nails thru the jamb to hold it in place. Everything looks fine now. Thanks for all the help guys! I knew I came to the right place!
Edited 3/15/2008 9:01 pm ET by loogie
I'm dealing with the same stuff on a trim job (casing doors). The drywall is all over the place, up to 5/16ths proud in some spots, and in and out at the headers and trimmers. I didn't want to scribe uneven tapered pieces to flush up to the drywall, partly because it would be time consuming, but also because the resulting surface would have been splayed all over, and the trim on that surface would have looked wonky.
I just found the measurement where the drywall was most proud of the jamb and added furring strips that I ripped at that measurement. So then the furring strip/jamb was flush at that point, and proud everywhere else. To solve the uneveness, i put a straight edge across the face of the jamb/strip (top and bottom)and put a drywall screw in at that depth, just inside where the casing edge will go on either side. I then put my straight edge on these pairs of screws, which gave me a reference depth to set a bunch more screws to support the outside edge of the casing all the way up, every six or eight inches. A hand screwdriver helps to get the depth close enough. Shims would work too, but this seemed quicker.
My casing then sat perfectly flat on the jamb and the screws all the way around. There's a wonky gap between the back of the outside edge of the casing and the drywall, which I'll fill with a paintable caulk, and paint the same color as the wall. I'm more comfortable with the wonkiness there because my trim looks great. And the problem is revealed at the drywall, which, after all, is where the problem is.
I noticed the obvious drywall issues before I gave an estimate, thank god. There's a great article in the Journal of Light Construction 12/07 issue about troubleshooting the framing before the drywall goes up for just these reasons. Check it out.
You just have to treat it as if it's renovation work in which the window jambs rarely match the wall surface.
Measure the difference at each corner and rip tapered jamb extensions, apply either flush with inside of jambs or with a 3/16"-1/4" reveal, and then attach the trim with another reveal. Ends up looking classy.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Another couple of ways to deal with it is to rabbet either the the casing for the drywall or the drywall for the casing. If the casing isn't too wide you can back-cut a very wide rabbet--up to three inches or so, just by passing the casing through through a table saw on edge. This works well if the difference in thickness is pretty consistent.Or you can do the reverse and rabbet the drywall to receive casing. Position the trim on the wall where it's going to go, cut the paper face of the drywall with a utility knife, then use a surform plane to scrub away as much of the drywall thickness as needed. The latter is pretty tedious--not to mention messy, but works well if you don't have to go too deep into the gypsum. I usually wind up doing it this way when the thickness differences are inconsistent, and not too deep.In either of the above instances you might want to start with thicker trim stock to make up for how much is going to wind up buried. Or you can glue a little strip to the edge of the stock if you don't want to pay for the extra thickness for the whole board. But time is money.Or just go with tried and true jamb extensions, or some combination those three tactics. If they are all shy of the drywall, but inconsistently so, I usually do jamb extensions to the thinner part, then shave the gypsum on the thicker parts. No easy way out. It's all tedious.Steve
there are areas around my windows where the drywall sits up to 1/4" proud of the the window jamb.
This is a common problem in finish work. I've tried just about all the methods described so far: shimming, rabbeting, and using moldings with a relief ploughed into the back.
I'm not proud to say this, but the easiest way I've found in dealing with minor imperfections is to smash them down with a hammer. It's quick and it works. I expect the majority of your problems will be less than 1/8", and the hammer will take care of that pretty quickly.
If the problem is more significant, I'll cut off some of the rock's paper face. Just score it first, so that it won't show after your casings are up --- keep this destructive work about a 1/2" or so away from the outboard edge of the casing. Once the paper is off, you can even carefully scrape out some of the gypsum if you need to.
Using a wide casing (1x5 or 1x6) will help lower the angle of error and get things to lay closer to being coplanar with the wall.
The biggest problems occur where the rock is butted and the mud then has to be floated up in a big belly seam. I never install rock this way (nor are you supposed to), but unfortunately, many hangers do, and it makes a big problem down the road for the finish work.
Thanks for all the replies guys! It looks like I have my work cut out for me. I think I'll try to pull the windows in with some clamps first. They are only attached at the the sheathing. After that I'll take some measurements and start with the more destructive techniques. I'll post a couple of pictures later. Live and learn I guess. I'll keep you posted.
loogie,
Smash the rock, otherwise known as tenderizing, or in my company Ray-izing to fit.
Just yesterday I was casing a door where the walls were heavily scim coated from previous "remodels". I chiseled out at least a 1/4 inch of mud in line with where the casing landed.
Been there, done that. It sounds unorthodox but I wonder how many here have done it. I worked on a house once where 90% of the windows (0ver 30) were like that. The walls had a veneer coat of plaster. Windows were ordered to accommodate this. Yet almost every window had the condition of proud wall. Ended up using every trick in the book to make it look good.
It sounds unorthodox but I wonder how many here have done it
I have to think that just about every experienced trim carpenter has! We probably all go through the same process in our minds, trying to figure out what to do when the damn rock is proud of the jambs! Eventually, we try to remove some of the excess rock, and find a hammer works well.
The above advice is all good.
In the case of wavy walls, my plastering skills take over. I give myself a straight line with a jamb extension that comes out no further than the proudest point of the sheet rock. Case the window. Tape the outside edge of the casing with blue painter's tape burnishing the tape nice and tight. Now float a plaster mix on the wall and feather accordingly so you have a nice straight line between casing and wall.
If the difference is not all that bad, I just tape the casing and caulk.
loogie
I would tenderize (or remove) the Sheetrock to get a good fit between the casing and the jamb. That will be sufficent alone if you are mitering your corners which I don't think you are.
You are using a craftsman type trim 4 1/2" casing and 5 1/2" headboard with a stool?
You are concerned that the side casing mate perfectly with the stool?
Do step 1 (tenderize) and then hand plane the back of the casing to mate perfectly with the stool.
Your casing may be 3/4" at the bottom and 1/2" at the top but it won't be as obvious as a the casing looking cockeyed on the top of the casing.
Rich
I've installed Pella Prolines before. Just pop off the extension jambs and make your own.
I usually scribe mine, or i'll just average the difference. As long as gthe depths of the Extension jambs match at the corners it shouldnt be too bad casing them.
If it was easy no one would need us.
I'll throw in my two cents. Cut your jamb extensions about 1/8"proud then put a 5 degree bevel on the outside so that your extension is actually higher than the sheetrock on the inside but lower on the outside. Move your casing in from the sheetrock onto the extension until you get your 3/16 or whatever reveal. You can fine tune where it hits the extension with a small block plane. Your situation does not sound severe enough to start rabbitting your casing or fudging the sheetrock. As already mentioned, your extension should have about an 1/8" reveal on the factory extensions. Done properly you should have a nice snug fit on the sheetrock.
I do nothing but renos and this is pretty much the only way I've ever done them. A little patience and a sharp block plane and you'll do just fine.
Good luck
Gary
Cut your jamb extensions about 1/8"proud then...
That's a great approach, but I don't believe the OP is/was planning on using extensions. It sounded to me like he ordered the window frames at 4-9/16".
At this point, beating back the rock would be much faster.
Gottcha
Gary
I'm not the OP but I agree with you completely. I do the same type of work as you. I'd go nuts hoggin drywall all day. I'd much rather alter wood wxtension jambs.
At least there's two of us. We'll be finished long before the others and have a nice job to boot.
Gary
I'd go nuts hoggin drywall all day.
FYI, using a hammer takes about 15 seconds to take care of something on the order of 1/8".
The problem is that its tough to evenly cut the DW back and you need to be real careful not to cut (hammer) beyond the casing or you're screwed.
Jamb extensions don't solve the problem if the projection varies from top to bottom or left to right. What was some proud drywall in spots is now some proud jambs in spots, which will have to be addressed with yet another step. All you've done is moved the goal post.Steve
Thats why I said that you have to average the extension jambs. As long as the corners match you can manipulate the jamb depth to AVERAGE around the window.
Honestly its a window by window thing. If its not a big difference I have cut back dw on occasion. It really depends.
Agreed.
That's true about moving the problem, but i'd rather have my trim flat and perfect, and show the defect behind the casing at the dw. The client is going to evaluate me more on the casing to casing connection, since that's entirely my work. If i hack the dw and the casing isn't all in the same plane, it looks a little wonky. I do work t&m, though...
Anyway, someone nailed the question with the advice about Pella's flanges.
k
K,Agreed. Whatever method you opt for has to, in the end, leave the trim flat and in the same plane. I usually asemble the tim as a unit with kreg screws on the bench and istall as one piece, so it has to lie flat and stay perfect, no matter how I deal with the flaws in the wall.That's one reason I don't do the hammer smashing thing. If I do scrub the sheetrock, I score the paper at the proud parts exactly at the edge of where the trim is going to be, scrape or peal paper away as needed to speed things up a bit, and then scrub gypsum away till the casing will lie flat. I'm essentially rabbeting the sheetrock. It's an annoying process and messy too.If it's a fairly uniform amount of discrepancy, then it's jamb extensions or rabbeting the casing. Depending on the trim scheme, and how muc hmaterial has to be removed, rabbeting the casing is often faster and more polished looking than the added layer that jamb extensions introduces. Either way, then I squeeze a little mud or caulk into the resulting gaps between the casing and sheetrock, if it's objectionably large.If it's for paint, sometimes I just screw the trim to the wall, pin it to the jambs, leaving a little gappage here and there at the casing/jamb joint, caulk those flaws, and paint.I'm glad I caught this thread. It never occurred to me to try pulling the windows in. Most times I'm dealing with non-flanged windows with 5/4 exterior trim, screwed tight to the sheathing and framing from from the outside, so once they are installed, they are probably not going to move. But for the occasional flanged window I deal with, this will be a good thing to have in my bag of tricks.Can we all say "beating a dead horse" now ;-)Steve
Edited 3/16/2008 5:27 pm by mmoogie
you would be suprised how much you can bring the window in.
It seems to be a problem inherent with Pellas.
Of course by now you have realized I don't like Pellas.
Are you kidding me?It's a problem inherent with any flanged window. the flanges have more movement than brickmould.It's also a problem inherent with lazy framers and job sups who can't be bothered to check anything
Barry E-Remodeler
That response is uncalled for
I pointed out to him how to fix a problem inherent with the brand of windows he installed.
In my oppion I think that all new homes with flanged windows should have the gc's pay to have us shim them also. This would eliminate the window and extension not protruding into the wall enough or too much
uncalled for?only if one is a lazy framer. ;)
Barry E-Remodeler
Insinuation
all, right, let's calm down people .......Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thank you Mike
Only dealt with Pellas once, a couple of summers ago. Stacked them up the back of a church from about 1835. 6-foot wide double doors, topped by a transom, topped by a pair of casements, topped by yet another transom if I recall. Don't have a picture. About 18 feet high total, I think. Wall was out of plumb by about 3 inches top to bottom as well. Installed the doors perfectly plumb. Made for some trickery unifying all the trim on the outside.They were OK, but yes flanged. I don't much care for flanged.Steve
its tough to evenly cut the DW back and you need to be real careful not to cut (hammer) beyond the casing
Sorry for being a bit smart-alecky; maybe I need to explain what I do in more detail.
I don't try to cut the rock back evenly; all I do is smash down the rock (using moderate hammer blows) so that the casing doesn't "high center" on the proud edge of the rock. What this accomplishes is basically the same as using a casing which has a relief ploughed into the back; it allows the casing to "bridge" between the jamb (on the inboard edge) and the wall surface (on the outboard edge).
Usually, it is extremely fast and easy to knock down a few localized problem areas, provided that the magnitude of the overall problem is within about 1/8".
One way you can avoid visible damage to the wall is to draw a reference line. I'll use a piece of scrap casing to draw a line about 1/2" inboard of where the casing will eventually be nailed. But I seldom need to draw a line. It's only really necessary when I need to get fairly aggressive with the rock.
There is certainly a time and place where rabbeting casings or using extensions is the best approach. For example, if the mismatch between the finish wall face and the jambs are uniformly off by more than an 1/8", I would correct the problem via woodworking.
The real benefit of "tenderizing" the rock is that it is a quick and easy way to fix localized problems with the wall surface.
Edited 3/16/2008 3:59 pm ET by Ragnar17
Loogie: what a name.
the experience with proline windows is that the aluminun nailing flages needed to have been pulled to a greater angle.
Our fix. One guy outide pushing the window in, the other guy inside with shims and trim gun.
When the window is flush on top shimm and nail.
This in my opimion is one of the problems with Pella's
Something else he could try that has worked for me.........
Use a good stiff piece of 1x6 (poplar is good) long enough so that it extends past the RO at least 6" or so on either side. Put one at the top and bottom of the window.
Now run a couple of screws into the window jamb while at the same time pulling it inward or having someone push from the outside.
Once you flush it up (hopefully) then shim and nail if you can to the framing.
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Edited 3/15/2008 5:28 pm ET by EricPaulson
typical Pella