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TinaG:
Some good suggestions for wood above but if you’re looking for other alternatives:
1) Epoxy flooring. Often used in commercial kitchens. Can add your choice of aggregates, very fine synthetic aggregates, to make the color and texture you desire. Absolutely limitless color range, durable, various textures.
2) Mat/Carpet. I’m thinking that something like Johnsonite “Terra-turf” flooring. Comes in tiles too. Limited color selection. Made of recycled truck tires and the like. Has special yarn-like fabric encapsulated/looped into the top. Durable as all heck. Needs ocassional cleaning to keep the appearance looking new as dirt can get buried between the strips. They use the stuff in foyers of large buildings and atheletic complexs.
I wanted to say that the strategy in commercial buildings for keeping dirt out involves varying the walking surfaces so that the materials take the dirt off of the guests as they progress thru the buildings. This usually starts w/ synthetic matts outside the buildings. OK!
Replies
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If the epoxy floor is too out-of-reach, you might also think about rubber (well actually synthetic) flooring. It too is usually commercial product, there is some very high design stuff out there, especially from Europe. Very, very durable, resiliant, easily cleaned, practically limitless range of colors/patterns/textures, chemical resistant, sound deadening, etc. Some comes in sheets, some in tiles.
I am also interested in this epoxy stuff, sounds like a new version of terrazo. Got more info?
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Lisa. Was just cruising web, found this site:
http://www.hitechflooring.com/benefit.htm
What do you know about the rubber?
*Tina, I'm curious as to why concrete is out of the question. Back issues of FHB have had homes with patterned concrete dyed or stained. To my mind, not bad looking, the cost should be reasonable, and combined with radiant heat, comfortable.
*I agree with J Callahan. Stained concrete(and maybe even stamped in a decorative pattern) may be just what you are looking for. No wood product or even tile would ever be as durable and you would be amazed at the results if done by the right person. Check out the following web site (www.decorative-concrete.net).
*I used to see end grain wood block floors in old factories and machine shops.Some had taken abuse for close to 100 yrs. and still looked good. (if you ignored the oil stains from machine tools)Recently i saw the same type of flooring in a museum...very upscale.I was absolutely amazed at how fantastic it looked.I would like to think that somewhere in between these two extremes is a level of expense that will fit your budget( if this is really a priority with you)Good Luck,stephen
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TinaG:
Used "a resinous" (I called it epoxy on an earlier post) flooring product made by Key Resin Company. KRC, Batavia, OH phone: 513.943.4225 or fax: 513.943.4255
Specified for a church foyer and work area >> KRC "Key Quartz" Nantucket Blue w/ 450 Topcoat.
Do a search of Resinous Flooring, there are hundreds of manuf.
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Here is another decorative concrete web site with good pictures of some possibilities. (www.thestampstore.com) Page down to the link labeled "New examples of decorative sandblast stenciling" for some extreme examples of what can be done with modern concrete techniques.
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Tina
Take a look in the archives, around about Aug 21 for a bunch of pieces about wood block flooring.
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Tina, as I understand the problem you want some flooring that will take an abusive beating. What do you have in mind? Were you intending to call it names while you beat it? Whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks!
Seriously, I might suggest maple flooring, with about a dozen coats of poly.
Sorry for the bad joke, but I just had to do it.
*I'm putting this up because Tina mentioned dismissing tile because of her concern re: a slip/fall accident. I agree, she is right to be concerned with this hazard, but I wish to point out that all the flooring materials mentioned are quite capable of inflicting injury. Rather, floors don't hurt people, people hurt people. If the potential for a slip/fall is a priority, then you should choose a floor based on it's COF, or non-slip qualities.This is a common complaint--that it is too hard a surface or may be too slippery--I hear about hard surfaces (tile) yet it is somwhat misleading. It is misleading because often the selection of different tiles has not been examined. It is also misleading because you have to consider the alternatives in order to determine what is the best flooring for a given task. Soft surfaces (carpet, vinyl, etc.) can present a soft, sound deadening surface but they require more maintenace and do not last as long as hard surfaces. Tina has already stated the requirements for her flooring so a soft surface won't do. What she, and many others, is trying to do is weigh the factors. It must be durable, aesthetically pleasing, have a low coefficient of friction (non-skid), not too hard, not too soft, not too expensive, easy to maintain. To be frank, has anyone heard of such a material? Some may consider a rubber mat floor to be goodlooking, but they probably spend alot of time in a commercial kitchen. And a seamless rubberized overlay is going to cost alot of moo-la. (Get it? MOO-la. Cattle ranch...cows, moo. Ah, forget it.)A viable alternative would be a hard surface with strategically placed area rugs. This has already been mentioned by Jay.In my home, I have highly polished maple floors in most of the house and ceramic floors in the bath and kitchen. We also live in a rural ranching area. And, to boot, I sometimes don't feel like taking my const. boots off, ya' know. Yet the floors are very much like new. Runners and area rugs are the answer.I'm wandering, I know, but I still feel durability--especially in a place like Tina's--is key. To dismiss a material before fully investigating that material draws down the choices of suitable flooring materials. It makes the selection process that much more onerous.But, then again I could be wrong...
*Ok, Ok, so you guy like abuse (or at least one of you ... Can I say I'd be floored if you didn't?)...To the subject at hand. We use throw rugs all the time already and that's not a problem. We've ruled out the concrete idea mostly because our closest concrete is between 35 and 70 miles away and costs us close to $90/yard. Epoxy/resinous stuff also looks good but probably hard to get anyone reasonably close by who a) knows what it is and b) could install properly. From the very beginning we've wanted to used wood endblock but found it (properly aged/dried timber) pricey (yes, too much moo-la). So we're pricing conventional wood flooring now.Also, someone has suggested floating cork panels. Any comments?BUT...we had an idea this morning...what if we put down inexpensive vinyl now, then bought as much 6x6 timber as we'll need and let it dry in the barn for a couple of years. How would we be able to determine the moisture content, then? Could we lay it over the old vinyl (which by that time should have taken plenty of abuse).And Rich, we're still also looking at tile (which was our first choice before we heard about endblock (in FHB 1997)).So let's hear it on our last idea...moovelous? or just plain bull?
*Assuming that you're going to take those 6-by's that you "home-dry" then slice them yourselves in two years, what's to prevent you from doing something similar to that today?What I'm asking is, what is the price differential between writing a check today for green 6-by's AND paying for vinyl, vs buying kiln dried 6-by's today and slicing them yourselves?End-grain flooring seems to be your first choice. Since you're passionate about it, do all you can to get it today. The flooring will "make" your room, and make you proud. Vinyl will be something you'll be apologizing for until you finally do get what you want...and by then the prices may have gone up enough to have you again waiting for "just another few years."You have a terrific idea. You're not afraid of a little work. If you can get KD stock and slice it yourself, you'd save a substantial amount of cash. You would also have one less worry in trying to match the floor height (thickness) differentials between todays vinyl and tomorrow's wood.If you do choose to go the 2-year drying route, you can purchase a moisture meter to measure the MC of the timber. If you can't borrow one, they're not terribly expensive to purchase and you can recoup some of the cost in a resale.Cork is beautiful, somewhat resilient, but I have seen it get scratched/shredded by grit. A nearby gravel pit has it in their office. You want tracked in grit? They've got it.After Armageddon, one of the few items remaining undamaged may be Pergo flooring. While it lacks warmth, beauty, and every other desireable characteritic known to mankind, it does fascinate some. Durable. Bomb proof. It pains me to offer it to you, as I don't want to insult you, but thought I'd toss it out.In the end, it all comes down to wants, dreams, desires. End-grain block is that and more. I hope you're able to swing it. If so, post some pics when you're done.
*Mongo, you're sure turning out a steady supply of great posts lately. Thanks for the effort.Rich Beckman
*Ditto on the hot streak Mongo .
*The irony is that I thought I'd get jumped for being "mean" to Pergo!Thanks much for the kind words, I really do appreciate them.Mongo
*Maybe someone here is an expert on drying wood. I was wondering ... rather than buy the timers now and let them dry in your barn for two years before slicing them up, why not slice them up now? Surely the slices will dry out a lot faster than the original timbers. Maybe the risks of cracking would actually be less with the slices because they would dry almost uniformly whereas I would guess timbers would dry on the outside (and shrink) before the inside dries.Tina, you didn't say what kind of construction the house is, concrete slab, framing over crawl space or framing over heated basement. Of course, the concrete slab would be an ideal base for any kind of tile treatment, whereas the others might not be stiff or strong enough for a heavy tile job. Also, is this going to be a DIY job, or are you going to call in the professionals? If it's going to be DIY, do you already have some experience with tile, wood, vinyl etc? Large and irregular "Mexican" tiles can be tricky to lay smoothly, whereas some of the mass produced ones are very uniform in size and thickness and are easier for us amateurs to lay. Mongo mentioned some concerns about tiles being slippery. I think there can be quite a bit of variation. Some tiles like you might see on a shower wall are so slick they would probably be too dangerous on a floor, but we've used other tiles on our bathroom and laundry floors that have a "tooth" to them, almost like they were sprinkled with fine grit during the glazing process, so they feel quite secure even if you walk around with wet feet. In fact, I think there is some kind of a traction rating for floor tiles. Also, our tile floors are low gloss, so they don't show dog drools too much. And of course, it helps to choose tiles and grout that are already the color of dirt, especially in the areas near entries or where they will get the most traffic.
*We have framing over basement for half the house, framing over crawlspace for the rest. Basement will have hot water/hydronic boiler (no in-floor heating) and possibly a baseboard or two in the basement, because we'll have workshops and a kennel down there.Not a DIY job. Our contractor or subs will do the work. On a slightly different subject, I want to make sure basement is finished correctly (See related query under Construction Techniques). Ever since contractor put housewrap inside the OSB sheathing, I've upped my attention to detail. Not sure all the local "customs" (and apparently the housewrap thing is one of them), are in best interest of house and occupants.Back to the floor subject...as I understand it, tile is tough to lay on a framed floor that's not on slab? Needs a muscled-up subfloor, right?To all you folks in general out there who respond to all the questions on this site, I just wish I'd found you a year or so ago!
*"A hot water/hydronic boiler but no in-floor heat." That is like going to the best steak house in town and then ordering hamburger.
*No infloor heat for variety of reasons, one being lack of plumbers experienced in such way out here in boonies.Also, as cattle ranchers, we know all too well that a burger can be better than a steak, especially if it's prime beef and the steak is only choice. Same for homebuilding....it's only as good as the quality that goes into it, no matter how simple or sophisticated, right?
*TinaG: what happened a "year or so ago"? Do tell.Okay gang, the Slapfest has had a change of venue; it's moving to Tina's. Don't forget your tools. We have a gal with a real need. Think of it; flying into the dirt strip--every ranch has one--at 8200' for a wild beef BBQ with all the fixins. Tina'll be more than happy to supply all the beer and cow, right Tina?Besides dwarf tossing, there'll be cow punching. Or, mebbe' cow tippping--depends on what part of the country you're from. (Sorry AJ)
*Rich, With the thin air at 8200', will any records set in the dwarf toss be considered official? Also, when tipping cows, do they get the standard 15%? Maybe Patrick (sacred cow tipper) can answer the latter.Without the sense to delete this, I at least have the sense to head to the fridge for a beverage.
*Well, Tina; I guess all the advice you're gonna' get has dried up for the time being.Mongo; hee hee
*Tina:OK, so you like end grain. Simple is generally better, so maple flooring while available, simple, long lasting, easy to install and has a proven track record is just too easy for you. I understand. You want something novel, unusual, and unproven. Got it.I did one and only one end grain floor, and it turned out average. I would not recommend it except for a particular room like a kitchen. Here is how it worked.I took 2x4's and built a jig on the site for my cutoff saw. Chopped until we droped. Installed over plywood subfloot using epoxy mastic with a 3/8" notch. Beat them down with a rubber mallet, and let dry for about a day. For grout, I used epoxy and some sawdust (light on the sawdust). To finish, I used a heavy duty commercial floor sander to even the whole mess out, and then finished using poly.Advantages: Unusual looking. Will wear forever.Disadvantages: Surface is uneven, and end grain will absord moisture. Due to epoxy, I doubt you will ever get this up. Don't even think about changing the flooring, as you will have to rip out the subfloor. Requires refinishing with poly fairly frequently. I thought it looked ugly. Homeowner loved it. Oh well.
*Um, how much time d'y'all think a 6'4" Army flyboy named "MongO" spends worrying over getting "jumped" for his taste in floor fashion? Pergo will definitely scratch under these circumstances, anyway.Tina, the concrete and tile still sound like the worry-free options, with wood and/or carpet in the evening-inhabited rooms. A $90 yard of concrete will cover a lot of floor as well or better than the alternatives -- most cost a few dollars a sf. There are commercial-grade traction tiles. A client has the commercial-style TOUGH rubber matting in the kitchen and likes it (an earlier architect-owner's idea), though I think it looks hideous. I'd go with stamped steel before I'd use that rubber stuff.Put some steel grates at the entrances to knock off most of your boot debris.P.S. Where are you from ABQ? I've only really flown over the area, have some relatives in Taos.
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Tina: I have to assume that the 90$yard of concrete is for a
cubic yard, enough to cover approximately 54 square feet of floor
space, minimum. That, at less than $2 per Sq ft, is by far the
cheapest floor mentioned in these posts. Throw in a couple bucks
per foot for finish work, and you have a beautiful floor. If
your concrete costs $90 per square yard, you are about to enter
the cement business, retiring soon.
Dog
xx
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Yee haw, all you cowpokes. I don't know about cow tipping (all I know is sign I saw in restaurant that tipping is not a city in China), but the rest is a bunch of bull. If you can find us, you can come (if you build it, they will come). Hot air rises fast out here, so y'all should feel right at home. ANDREW D-- Actually, we're about 200+ miles west and south of ABQ, almost into Arizona.
RICH -- we've been designing/planning this house for at least 3 years (I've the misfortune of a long-ago nearly-completed degree in Architecture -- a little knowledge is a dangerous thing). We had one contractor to choose from out here (actually 2 -- the first one put plumbing into our cabin ... without a vent stack...phew!). If I'd been onto this website back then, I could have researched and reached some decisions, gotten all your suggestions and the wisdom of others experiences, so we could have avoided some mistakes by us and by contractor. (No one out here has ever seen housewrap used according to mfg directions...they put it inside the sheathing/osb. We're making ours redo, especially since the Hardie boys insist on it so for their siding).
Now, about those floors. I think we've reached conclusion that the endblock is for the Ted Turners of the ranching world. (Shame on FHB for tempting me so). Concrete looks good on paper (or on screen), but is it really as simple as all that to pour such a big floor? (Entry, laundry, mudroom, kitchen, living, dining = approx 1200 sf.) And what's involved in the coloring process? Curing? Sealing? Subfloor/forming? Isn't it awfully heavy? How thick? Really just a couple of bucks labor/sf? Tell me more (or come do it yourselves. We'll provide beef and brew, you provide labor and conflicting opinions...)
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Tina,
I've resisted replying, but now I'll venture in.Concrete will not be as cheap as it might seem.Plus, you'd better get a good concrete sub because taking it out would really be expensive.
At two inch thickness you'd need eight yards ,then multiply eight times three thousand and you'll have the rough weight of your floor.Kinda depressing.We usually pour over 2x10's or 2x12's, twelve inches on center with a 3/4 plywood base.
Hard troweled floors can be slip hazards when wet so you'd need to get the appropriate sealer to avoid that.Color can be mixed into the load or placed directly on the fresh concrete. Having the plant mix in the color is more expensive but has two advantages,color throughout (in case of chips), and more consistent color control.Placing color on fresh concrete will save money but also lets you mix colors for alternative effects.
Cost? Being out in Egypt I think your labor cost would be significant.What if they needed to pump the concrete because of doorways or stairs? How far will this crew have to travel? Interior flat work can double or triple exterior rates.
I'd look into porcelain tile http://www.italgraniti.it and consider heating under the tile with electricity instead of hydronics(because any electrcian can do this) http://www.easyheat.com.
Porcelain tile is as hard as granite and very slip resistant. They are duplicating stone now, so there are many choices. I did the exterior of a restaurant with it. In winter it gets snowshoveled and salted, and it's held up great.
If you go with concrete, talk to a good engineer about structure and concrete mixes and additives, and keep an eye on your pour!
Hope it helps!
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Wouldn't an authentic floor for the region be hard-packed dirt, or maybe some throughly worn planks over dirt? Gotta consider aesthetics here.
*Army? ARMY?Them's fightin' words. No offense to the ground pounders, but the army doesn't fly. They beat the air into submission with helo's. Air Force, andrew...Air Force. Ex-USAF, anyway...BTW, still a fan of the wood block.Going off into the wild blue yonder, Mongo
*Oops. I thought the Air Force only used insanely expensive jets to shoot trucks. :) One of my law classmates was with you in the Gulf. My apologies.
*Oooh, I like the hard-packed dirt idea. Now all I need is sod for the walls and some good thatch for the roof.PAUL THOMAS -- thanks for the input...I suspected that a floor that sexy had to cost (uh, oh...try to control yourselves, guys, I can hear the comments now...). Also, electric heat is out...we are WAY off the grid, and all our power comes from solar panels (with backup propane generator). Will go check out italgraniti.it.
*Yesterday I went to an auction at a site that had been manufacturing heavy machinery (an old Caterpillar site - Cat had just sent all the jobs off to Canada and Mexico...). I was interested to see that the factory floor was done in end grain wood blocks. The building was about the size of two football fields and was used for welding and fabrication of dozer blades among other things, yet even in high traffic areas, the blocks looked in surprisingly good shape. I don't know how recently they had been replaced, but they all looked like they had been there for a while (the building looked to be from the 40s or 50s). There was one area where they had repeatedly dragged large dozer blades that was somewhat chewed up and was being replaced. No one was working on it at the time, but there were pallets of 4x6 by 2 1/2 thick blocks of what appeared to be softwood that had been pressure treated. There was a can of hydraulic roofing cement which appeared to be what they were using to attach the blocks to the floor, a three pound sledge (well coated with hydraulic cement), and a solid steel "brick" that was the same thickness and just a bit larger than the blocks.There were some concrete sections and the blocks appeared to be in better shape than the concrete, which had suffered from the heavy steel having been dropped on it. The one negative was that it had absorbed a lot more oil than the concrete and that the steel particles and from grinding, along with the oil and steel shavings, had filled all the cracks, make it somewhat messy between the blocks.
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Tina, you'll need to let us know what you finally choose. The cow-tipping first reared it's ugly ..... in the "First Annual Breaktime Get Together and Gab Fest" thread. Feel free to join in the chaos. As for Andrew, come on over to the Tavern and make him buy you a virtual beer, dirt floor indeed!
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Sheesh. No one can take a joke around here...
And I do miss the wide open spaces (mountains included) of the West. Sometimes on the East Coast it just feels like people are crawling all over you. My aunt and uncle have a cabin north of S.F. without electricity ... but you'd hardly notice with the gas fridge and potbellied stove.
Tina, try Homepower Magazine, recommended in another thread here. Neat stuff.
*Sure, Andrew. Your comments about the open west read something like this: "Of course, I like _______; in fact some of my best friends are ________."
*Hey, that's nonsense! I don't have any friends. So there.
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No Andrew, you just have us. And if that isn't just deserts, I don't know what is.... ;-)
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We live in the land of lava rock and clay mud/lava cinders. We're cattle ranchers, so our new house needs a floor that can take those kind of muddy boots, muddy dogs, dropped tools, etc. Since a concrete slab with a big drain in the middle is out of the question (but don't laugh, we considered it), what's left that's also cost-effective, or at least not outrageous? Tile is too cold and hard. Vinyl? Laminate? Engineered wood flooring? Has anyone out there heard of/used Award Hardwood floor with new Wearmax ("advanced ceramic finish")? Or the new Bruce wood floor- Natural Reflections - that's supposed to glue or staple down and has a 25-year warranty? I think Bruce also has an engineered flooring called Wearmaster? Obviously, we're open to any ideas y'all have out there!
*How about tile, but with throw rugs here and there; the type you can take outside and hose 'em down. Of course, you still need the structural provisions for tile.Another possibility is end-grain wood blocks. There was a discussion here on that just a short while ago. They can be warm and rustic, which might be in keeping with the look you want.Sounds like your biggest problem will be the grit that you and the dogs bring in (our dogs do that too) so I would be afraid that vinyl or laminate would soon lose its surface finish, and once that happens the maintenance can be a nuisance.
*A tile floor with radiant floor heating laid in under the tile can be comparable in cost, beautiful--wide choice of tile colors/textures--as well as durable. My 2nd choice for your situation would be old plank flooring.
*TinaG:Some good suggestions for wood above but if you're looking for other alternatives:1) Epoxy flooring. Often used in commercial kitchens. Can add your choice of aggregates, very fine synthetic aggregates, to make the color and texture you desire. Absolutely limitless color range, durable, various textures.2) Mat/Carpet. I'm thinking that something like Johnsonite "Terra-turf" flooring. Comes in tiles too. Limited color selection. Made of recycled truck tires and the like. Has special yarn-like fabric encapsulated/looped into the top. Durable as all heck. Needs ocassional cleaning to keep the appearance looking new as dirt can get buried between the strips. They use the stuff in foyers of large buildings and atheletic complexs.I wanted to say that the strategy in commercial buildings for keeping dirt out involves varying the walking surfaces so that the materials take the dirt off of the guests as they progress thru the buildings. This usually starts w/ synthetic matts outside the buildings. OK!
*Thanks Jay, Rich, PRP. We've considered tile, but as we're getting on in years, fear it might be hard if we fall. But we'll take another look. Our first choice from the start was wood endblock, but properly dried material seemed expensive -- 6.50/sf, just for the wood, before labor and grout and finishing. PRP -- will search web for info on the epoxy flooring...any sources you're familiar with, or ball-park costs?
*
That's right. Kick me when I'm down. ;)