I am preparing a bid for a large residential alteration/restoration. The architect is calling for all bids to be submitted via his bid forms. These forms require a $ figure to be entered after each breakdown item. Example: Roofing $______. The plans call for synthetic slate(no manufacturer), the roof would require about 200 linear feet of copper riglet to be cut into the existing brick facades and many other copper flashing details. Obviously, there are many ways to handle this item: (Roofing). We propose to use a synthetic slate from DaVinci: $600 a square for material, 20oz copper on all flashings and all hand made gutters and leaders, copper/stainless steel nails, etc….. None of these items are clearly identified on the plans. This goes on throughout the plans which are very detailed in most areas but lacking in others.
The Bid Instructions/Bid Forms clearly state that all bids must be submitted on the architects documents. I feel that my Bid will be substancially higher than everyone elses because of the quality we are providing. This would be easy to convey if I were able to present my proposal face to face with the clients. These Bid Instructions do not allow this. Any suggestions on how to present my detailed bid while conforming to Bid requirements? Does anyone have an “attachment” format they use for these types of documents?
Sincerely,
Bobby S
Replies
In these cases, I just attach my regular proposal form and write "see attached Proposal #0001" in the $________ space. Make sure the attached proposal spells out the specs in a fashion understandable by anyone who reads it.
If the potential customer is just looking at the bottom line, you're only going to get the job if you're low bidder anyway.
The last 3-4 times I've done this, the powers that be have decided to have everyone re-bid to the specs I created. However, I haven't always gotten the job.
Good luck.
copper p0rn
Thanks,
Exactly the simple format I was looking for. It is true that the work description that we author benifits everyone else. We can only hope that our attention up front is appreciated by the client. If not, we probably want to move on to the next job anyway.
Bobby S
Hey, this is a useful thread and all, but it's just not funny, in the way I look forward to with reading you.
Couldn't you, like, speak New Jersey or stream-of-conciousness in all lower case or something?
Tighten up!
Forrest
ah, but does 'bobby s' = 'bobbys'?"there's enough for everyone"
ooooh, good catch!TFB (Bill)
Wait - are you saying, like, made-up names, like Deepak Chopra and Tupac Shakur, are different people, too?
Them ain't even words.
Forrest
and Taj Mahal too!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdSf_wiMVMc&feature=fvw"there's enough for everyone"
I wanna call my self, six pack shaker and see if i can get a rap gig.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Thats not me i just bid 50 bucks lower then the last guy!!!
"Thats not me i just bid 50 bucks lower then the last guy!!!"I'm looking for a roofer that will pay me for the privilege of working on my shack - it's been a problem - I finally got Grant here, and all he wanted to do was drink beer - but then again, he is a roofer, so I repeat myself - "there's enough for everyone"
LOL he knows where the good jobs are at!!!!. With my luck i would work with Walter or Piffen and they would serve ice tea!!!!
We would have hard ice tea for you big bad bobbys !!!
Whatchatawkinbout???. I sound just like this Bobby S imposter!!!!;]
Copywrite your proposals. Use the Architect style of copywrite, see if they twig to it.
Contact the firms that reuse your specs and see if they'll pay you to write their specs before they're let out for bid.SamTA Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right! Except when I'm not.
I've done similar with "See attachemnt AA" or whatever -0 sometimes several attachaments
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
can you submit two bids?
one the way you think it should be done.
one "cheap" bid.
have all your backup info on both available.
anyone with sense will want to know what the difference is.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
I like Grant's idea, but if you have the time I think it'd also be worth generating a memo to the archy telling him everywhere there are missing specs. You'll get a good idea about whether he gives a rat's by if/how he responds.
A nice 100 point memo outlining all the plans shortcomings? Hate to do his job for him and provide all the other bidders with my work. That's why I want to include my ideas with the proposal.
bump
What about a phone call where you ask for clarification on some points, and then turn the non-answers into questions about how the proposals can be evaluated?
How bad do you need the job?
Good points from David and others.
I have yet to succeed in winning a single bid when it comes down to an architectets bid sheet.
One reason is that, as already stated by others, low bid, which I don't think I ever was. Another is that trying in inform a homeowner through an architects bid proposal that is full of contradictions and lacks information will only get yours into the round file before anyone sees it. More like it's the "don't question the gods" thing.
Maybe not every time and every architect, but the ones I have worked with.
As for me, I'm trying to remember a time where I have won a bid through an architect unless I was brought in through a general contractor, designer, or homeowner. Even then, the architect made it hard.
Out here, many architects want "finders fees" over and above the fees they are charging the homeowner for jobsite consultation and project management.
You mean they want the "winning bidder" GC to pay them a fee??
Yeah, and no...These are the times I work as a sub for cabinetry and finish carpentry, among other things. I never bid as a GC to them. I only deal with GC when it comes to Architects.
Even some archies want their cut(bigger cut) and some of these guys are big time residential architechs. Odd how an architech/firm walks they 'grey area" and will supply services as a project manager, but fail to have a GC license when dealing with contracts
Do a government spec type bid, where every unclear thing is priced using the cheapest possible interpretation of the RFB, then after you've won and work starts, CO the heck out of them at the highest possible rate allowed.
Although I personally like Cu's style, even though his spec sheets get stolen and reused..
SamT
A Pragmatic Classical Liberal, aka Libertarian.
I'm always right!
Except when I'm not.
I yam Bobbys here already so your confusin me and others.
Please do sumpting like .
BIG BOB
By the way nice to meet you!!!
Maybe he'll need some help with this job !
I dunno, There has been different synthetic slate products and guys used them here in rain country and all have failed. Maybe thats one that works but one fellow i know went bankrupt using fake slate. It looked real good i must admit.
how about big bobby s?
You can use that but im reserving BAD BOB;]
That is fine but I'm taking BIG BAD BOB.
Why don't ya'll just share a name?
I'm on the other side of the coin, I receive bids from several contractors and then , make the selection as to who gets the job. My recommendation: use the architects form without any changes, or else he could consider it non-responsive and you would be disqualified. Submit prices for anything that is not specified, like the roofing, using the cheapest material and method that satisfies the requirements. Then attach an addendum to your proposal listing alternate materials with the corresponding upcharge.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I understand that including the cheapest materials would create a low bid filling the requirements of the specifications. However, I believe that certain clients only want the best products. If the man is used to eating steak don't offer him a burger. I am looking for a way to show them the quality being offered without disqualifying myself from the Bid.
Before anyone lays into me, let me just clarify that I am used to eating burgers and get thrown a steak once in awhile.
Edited 9/13/2009 5:05 pm ET by bobby s
The architect is looking to control the bid process. If you are going to bid, I would bid according to his format. If you are on the fence, I would call or write and plant your seeds of doubt as to the legitimacy of his process. Sometimes that will get you a favorable response, and if it does, you may not be wasting your time. If they stick to their guns then it's almost guaranteed you ARE wasting your time. Some architects sell their clients a three-bid process, but are going to steer the job to their favored GC regardless.
Wow, an excellent point. I don't believe that I am being used on this one because the architect is not from our area and I know that the only other builders that are capable of doing this job are not bidding it. I was referred to the owners by several past clients. I am trying to separate myself from the rest of the field.
If you have an opening to the owner I would try to explore it. Tell them you have been contacted by the architect to "bid" on their home, but you are concerned that there are problems with the bidding process and aren't sure the whole thing is worth the time and effort that will be required if you choose to submit a proposal. Put all of this into a casual conversation, don't make it sound like a huge problem. Most owners don't understand what bidding results in, and that they may be change-ordered to death later, as a few other posters discussed above. Anyway, if it were me, I would want to know how the decision was going to be made and by whom. If the owners are going to sit back and wait for the architect to bring them the chosen contractor then you're again likely wasting your time. If, on the other hand, the owner is sophisticated and will be involved in the choice, then you want to advance your case. These types of dealings can be complicated and there are a lot of subtleties.
My general rule is I don't want to bid to architects or even owners in a blind process. I won't fill out a bid worksheet or whatever they want to hand me unless I am very clear on who is choosing and what the criteria are. I have been able to swing these situations in my favor on occasion, and I have been able to determine that it's not worthwhile on others.... and on a bunch of others I have bid and wasted my time. I can get myself hired most of the time if I can establish the connection I want beforehand.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Great thoughts, Thank you. I have scheduled a meeting with the clients to introduce myself and to have them introduce the job to me. I did promise to keep it casual without discussion of the specifications. It's been my experience that some upper end clients don't really care about construction techniques, but want to be assured that they get the pretty picture on the drawings. During my presentations, I talk about planning, management and the use of artisans to create their project.
Writing that last response made me think of the last big job I did, a custom home. The architect had previously approached me for bids on plans, which I gave a few times. Then he called me and said he and the owner wanted to hire me and wanted to negotiate a price and terms without any bidding. We settled on a cost + fixed fee deal, and it went very well. Later he (architect) told me that a couple of his "bid" jobs went south on him when they turned into change order feasts. Owners got angry and felt like they were led down a path. Unless the architect is good enough to develop really solid and complete plans and specs the owner IS being led down a path.... either that or the contractor willingly donates his shirt to the job.
This is getting back to the crux of my original post. Not only am I trying to convey my intent to provide superior quality, both men and material, but am also trying to propose a realistic price for the project.
My experience has been if im called to give a bid the Architect already has a sub in mind but just wants 2 more bids to look as though he is looking out for the homeowner . Amazing to find out some of my bids never made it to the homeowner. So i sent the owner a copy to stop that. But after awhile just gave up bidding cold for Architects. Maybe there were jobs there but the percentage of getting one VS the BS involved made it a waste of time. I cant stand the There always right and your always wrong contract.