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Need some help with plumbing

jermy1 | Posted in General Discussion on September 21, 2006 08:23am

Hello everybody,

I am remodeling my house (really more of a “1 wall remaining” remodel if you know what I mean). I have decided to plumb with pex tubing. We are going with zurn brand (let me know if you hate this one) and I am having an argument with my dad about using a manifold. He says that it is just a way to sell more pipe, I like the idea of it but don’t really have the experience to know what the best way is. Anybody have thoughts for manifold vs no manifold. Note: I am not putting in floor radiant heat with this, just plumbing the house. Thanks everybody!

Jeremy

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Replies

  1. DaveRicheson | Sep 21, 2006 01:00pm | #1

    Bump, and maybe Blumbill will be along later to give advice or logic fo or against mainfolds.

     

    Dave

  2. User avater
    IMERC | Sep 21, 2006 01:28pm | #2

    where do you plan on putting the manifold???

    will it be accessible???

    will they be for hot and cold main distribution or branch lines as you install???

    are you planning to up size the primary supply to mamifold and down sizing the branch lines or will all be the same size... 

     

     

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!

    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

    1. jermy1 | Sep 22, 2006 01:19am | #3

      Thanks guys, I have to confess to not knowing the answer to your question IMERC. I had planned on taking my 1" pex feeder line into my house, having a manifold there which would be accessable. From the manifold I would go out to different sections of my house and branch off as appropriate. I will take a branch to my hot water heater which will be hooked to my domestic hot water and also to a heat exchanger which then will feed my hydronic radiant panels heating system that I will have throughout the house. Again I am very green and open to all discussion. If the above plan sounds dumb please let me know. The brand of PEX I am using is Zurn the finished house will be approx 2000 sq ft with an upstairs and a ground-level main floor. Thanks everybody!

      Jeremy

      1. User avater
        IMERC | Sep 22, 2006 02:06am | #4

        the manifold and home running is a good idea...

        can't offer on the Zurn... 

         

        Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

        WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

        Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

        1. jermy1 | Sep 23, 2006 06:30am | #16

          IMERC, what is home running? Thanks for your time and info.

          Jeremy

          1. User avater
            IMERC | Sep 23, 2006 07:05am | #17

            A direct single supply line from the manifold to final destination would be an example... 

             

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      2. plumbbill | Sep 22, 2006 07:39am | #8

        Are you using your water heater to heat the radiant panels or are using a boiler to heat your hot water?"I'm here to chew bubble gum & kick azz, & I'm all out of bubble gum" Rowdy Roddy Piper

  3. User avater
    IMERC | Sep 22, 2006 03:08am | #5

    what say you???

     

     

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!

    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

    1. plumbbill | Sep 22, 2006 07:36am | #6

      OK was it a typo or somethin insinuated on Daves "Blumbill" LOL

      OK first thing Polyethylene crosslinked (pex) is pex no matter what brand, where they differentiate is how they are joined together.

      I think they all hold just fine, I am partial to Uponor¯ brand previously known as Wirsbo.

      Mainly I prefer the expansion tool verses the crimp tool by other brands, I find it easier to manipulate the piping.

      Manifolds = more pipe less fittings, & less labor---- for an average house.

      No manifold = bigger runs (diameter) more fittings, & less pipe---- usually more labor.

      Sub manifolds are good for house that have grouped fixtures a long ways away from the source.

      Draw back to manifolds on the HW , is hard to have a circ system, unless you plan on using double the pipe---- in general.

      The best for the DIY is to weigh those rules----- less money on material & more labor or more on material & less on labor.

      Hope this helps----"I'm here to chew bubble gum & kick azz, & I'm all out of bubble gum" Rowdy Roddy Piper

      1. User avater
        IMERC | Sep 22, 2006 07:41am | #9

        I knew ya'd know.. 

         

        Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

        WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

        Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      2. DaveRicheson | Sep 22, 2006 03:34pm | #10

        Typo,.... sorry about that.

        6:00 am and only two cups of java,...Iwasn't even in first gear yet. Ussually I'm on cup #4 by then, but I've had to cut back to two a day (got an upcoming appt. with doc. for lower back ack associated with kidney, bladder or other type problem).

        Maybe after the withdrawal stage is over I'll pay more attention :(

        BTW I still won't be able to spell (g)

         

        Dave

  4. plumbbill | Sep 22, 2006 07:38am | #7

    http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=78988.8

    "I'm here to chew bubble gum & kick azz, & I'm all out of bubble gum" Rowdy Roddy Piper

  5. Geode | Sep 22, 2006 04:51pm | #11

    Hi,

    I'm not a professional, but we're finishing up our new house, and we used pex for the water supply. We did a modified home run system. Meaning we had a manifold (made it ourselves from copper and pex fittings) coming off the water softener for the cold (and the water heater for the hot). Instead of doing each fixture indpendently, we did each bathroom separately, the kitchen by itself, etc. So we have maybe 6 branches on our manifold (clearly labeled!) in the basement, and then as the pex goes to the individual bathroom, we branched off for each fixture. Seems like a good compromise to me. We're not living there yet, but the water pressure is pretty good (3/4" off the manifold, 1/2" to each fixture).

    We used some zurn, and zurn fittings. Our local hardware store has crimpers for loaning, you might try your local one instead of laying out several hundred for expensive tools.

    Good luck
    Jo



    Edited 9/22/2006 9:54 am ET by Geode

  6. davidmeiland | Sep 22, 2006 05:38pm | #12

    Manifolds give you the capability to turn each side of each fixture on or off independently of all the others. That means that if you finish remodeling the kitchen but are still working on the bathroom you could turn on all of the water for the house but keep the bathroom fixture(s) shut off at the manifold as necessary. People like manifolds because of this convenience, because there are no fittings in the pipe runs (hopefully) to leak, and because there is apparently less labor spent installing. A manifold only makes sense if it's accessible, obviously.

    The downside from my point of view is that once you have gotten hot water to one fixture in the bathroom, you don't have it at the others yet. I.E. you run the hot water at the sink, and that fixture gets hot, but then you turn on the shower and have to wait for that to get hot too. Could be an issue if you have long runs from your water heater and/or your water supply is iffy (low-producing well) and you can't stand to run water down the drain. There would some variables to this... how much 1/2" vs. 3/4" you would use if doing manifolds vs. not...

    I have not seen manifold systems installed here, where we do a lot of PEX. Everyone is using it in the standard manner like copper pipe, with fittings. I installed a radiant system in my last house and bought ready-made manifolds for PEX from a plumbing supply.

    Here's a quick link from google:

    http://www.ppfahome.org/pex/faqpex.html

    1. RSmout | Sep 22, 2006 06:57pm | #13

      We installed pex in our addition and changed out the old galvanized pipe in the existing house. Everyone we talked to suggested getting a manifold with a separate run to each fixture. We ended up with the biggest manifold we could find. We were also told to use white 1/2 throughout instead of red and blue 3/8 because one friend said he had quite a bit of waste. He bought too much of one and not enough of the other. All white would have solved that problem. (So would accurate measuring.)If we had it to do all over, we would still use a manifold for the reasons listed in earlier posts (shut off part of the system and leave the rest working,) but we would have combine some fixtures where it makes sense. Most or all of the lavatory sinks can be combined, especially if you use 1/2" pex. I wouldn't do more than 3 on 3/8". All the toilets can be combined using 1/2", depending on the layout. The kitchen sink and dishwasher can be combined. You definitely want showers on their own run. The best thing with a manifold is if someone flushes or turns on a sink while you're showering, you don't get frozen or scalded from a quick pressure/temperature change.In a nutshell, plan your layout and get a manifold just big enough for your project. Group similar fixtures that are in close proximity or that can be combined into one run. Run high-volume fixtures independently.

      Edited 9/22/2006 2:10 pm ET by RSmout

    2. User avater
      CapnMac | Sep 22, 2006 07:06pm | #14

      People like manifolds because of this convenience

      It can help to think of the systems like panels & circuits, which only add to the convenience.  Note, that requires a certain amount of prior planning, just like an electrical system.

      So, if a person wanted a recirculating h/w system, you need a "neutral" (return) line "circuited" in with the rest of the piping.  Do that right, and the recirculation will match your "working" branch circuits.  All just a question of design.

      I still think it's a tad funny that OP's father is convinced that it's all a gag to sell more pipe.  Probably ought to send him over to the supply house to price the 3/4" copper . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

      1. jermy1 | Sep 23, 2006 06:28am | #15

        Thanks all so much. I have to confess that I still do not understand. It sounds like a manifold can save you valves at the appliance end of a run by grouping things together. Is that the only advantage? I am running radiant panels off of a hot water heater, no boiler to answer a question posed by one of the folks here. My dads perspective is less pipe equals good. I have to say that a manifold with runs to each individual appliance does not make a ton of sense to me as the same effect with less pipe could be achieved with a valve at the appliance end of the run. Please keep your advice coming everybody I really appreciate it!

        Jeremy

        1. User avater
          CapnMac | Sep 23, 2006 07:26am | #18

          It sounds like a manifold can save you valves at the appliance end of a run by grouping things together

          It could, I probably wouldn't do it that way.

          That, and the pex manifolds I have seen were not valved.

          Let us suppose a house with two bathrooms, a kitchen, and a laundry room.

          A person could take the water line coming in, and install a manifold on that , and lead whatever number of lines off to each fixture. which could be for our example here, 3+3+2+1, or 9 lines coming off.  The advanatge there is that each line could be about the same size, as each line is supporting exactly one "fixture unit" (to use the plumbing design term).  That's quite a few lines to run.  Especially after we add in 2+2+1+1 hot water lines.

          Alternately, the service entry manifold could just have four lines off of it.  The lines would lead to a smaller manifold, from which the individual fixture lines could then run.

          If a person were phasing, the smaller manifolds could (opperative word is could) make it easier, by allowing the small manifolds to be cited, but isolated with cut offs, or by simply capping the mainfold "outs."

          Now, a traditional copper system, you have to size the line so that it carries all the water needed for every single fixture "downstream."  This makes for needing to be able to artfully solder up assemblies of reducing tees and the like (which can be fun when you need to tap that 1 1/8" trunk line for a 3/8" ice maker line).  It also means having almost every diameter of copper line in the system from one end to the other.  Copper pipe is dear enough as is; every larger size gets even more dear, and there's no volume discount when you only need 11' of 1" line (unless you are a plumber with a warehouse and can buy by the bundle).

          That's where having twice the length in pex, but all off just the one roll of tube can be much simpler for a single project.

          four Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

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