*
How ’bout it?
I just don’t see bright, enthusiastic, young men & women making the above statement. More typical is someone waking up one day and declaring, “I need a job”.
The causes?
Society, how people perceive tradespeople?
Pay?
What do you think?
Luck
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Gee Mark I don't know what world you are living in but in mine I hear that kind of thing all the time. It may not be carpenter, it may be electrician, welder, plumber, or any number of other trades.
The big difference from the past is most of the kids I know want to master a trade, or two on the way to owning their own business. If they can't do that they want to run somebody else's. In that way they are smarter than most of us. They already know that to retire early and live well in the meantime you have to leverage someone else's labor, or find a high price specialized niche.
*Seems to me it may be the physical labor part of the trades. In today's computer driven society, things are big buck for little output. Granted some programmers and others have years of schooling behind them, but hey, don't we all in a way? I don't think it's the money. I know a lot of kids who say, "I want to work in Outdoor Education." The outdooor ed. field in general is very low pay. I worked as a guide for sea kayaking (summer) and dog sled (winter) adventures for about 8 years. Didn't make squat. But what a laid back lifestyle! Wouldn't do it again if you paid me twice what I make now.The trades just have a bad rap for some reason.Later. LJ
*I guess that is true, not many seem to embrace the trade way of life. Right now my little guys play fireman and carpenter all the time,but who knows in the future. I would think that the reason is the perception that a trades person is not and never will be an upper class person. TV and movies usually portray trades people as less than desirables with poor deportment and low education. The tend is to focus on "Plumbers Butt" or a lowly carpenter who is in the job out of desperation "waiting for something better to come along". The things the kids are exposed to are more of the "professional jobs" like doctors and lawyers and how exciting thier life is. There is also a great focus on the money end of these positions. Lawyers and doctors make the 6 figure salary, dress fine and have the beautiful wives and girlfriends. Indeed actual professions see themselves far superior to the trades and thier salaries and attitudes support this. Is a lawyer worth $250/hour? I guess some would say that any amount was fair if it got you out of trouble but then is not the homebuilder worth a decent wage-after all people could be killed from faulty workmanship and shoddy mechanical intallations.I pride myself in trying to do the best job possible (as would any professional) but still many clients are reluctant or can't believe that my skill could be worth any more than a mere simpletons wage. The irony is that these people (self admitted) couldn't pound a nail into a slice of bread and may need help plugging in Christmas lights. I don't know if there is a way to educate the public but the next Lawyer you spec a job for stick'em with a $150/hour labour charge and $5 for every local phone call and 15 for long distance and $250 for photocopies hahahhahaa
*I think the reason you don't hear kids say that they want to become a carpenter is because very few of them are taught to read a tape measure. Went down to the local lumberyard to have a piece of glass cut to fit a door and the kid cutting the glass is asking me if the small marks on the ruler are 1/4" or 1/16 of an inch. Finally he said that I should just go ahead and cut the glass my self.Why are the schools not teaching kids simple fundamentals of measuring? One other thing the schools are slacking off in is teaching kids how to tell time on a clock with hands. It seems that if they don't have a digital clock to look at, they don't know what time it is.President Bush claims he wants to promote education. I say he's got his work cut out for him.
*Front page of the main national Canadian paper the other day was a headline about a shortage of skilled workers, including the trades....the average age of a 'fully qualified tradesman' is now 50, apparently. Even with a shortage, still doesn't pay much, compared to other lines of work. Work harder, for less money, and risk cutting bits of yourself off as a bonus. Feel yourself excluded every time some goof is talking about the 'knowledge economy', and he's talking about people with six months or a years training doing high tech stuff, not people continuing a couple of hundred years of accumulated wisdom in how to build something useful from scratch. The training programs are constantly being cut back and the resources diverted to high tech programs. And you're dealing with a populace that is being trained that you can always get it cheaper and faster somewhere else, and who for the most part don't have the tools to judge the difference between good and bad work. Kids notice stuff like that. The ones that have it in the blood to build, will do it. Most are going to find easier ways to get along.I saw a TV journalism bit a couple of years ago, about the future of the trades; they were looking at tool and die makers, and machinists, guys making 70-80K a year.....to a man, there was no way their kids were going into the trades, they were all on the university/professional track. Makes you wonder.
*Maybe all kids are interested in making a ton of money by sitting behind a keyboard. If so, they will be disappointed, both by the money and by the job. That is their problem and there is only one thing we can do about it.We can enjoy our work and lead the type of lives that young people will find appealing in an old fashion sense. They will see hard working people of integrity producing work of enduring quality and contributing to the greater good of society in their work and in the rest of their lives. What we do each day may not seem like much but it is about all I can handle. Maybe someone is watching.
*Come on fellas. The world is changing daily, both in business, and in everything that effects our personal lives. Our magazines have been talking about this labor shortage for the last 3-5 years, and global business changes for the last 20 years.With those changes come different and new opportunities, both for the young generation and guys of my age. As for the young guys, can you blame them for wanting a career using their brains only as opposed to using their brains and/while busting their rear ends in snow, heat, rain, etc. Look at the kids still in high school getting $15,000 for one summer wowrking for the computer industry.Construction macho is out - nerd is in. Working with ones hands grasping a hammer or saw has been changed to using a keyboard.Get used to it since it will continue to get worse.Now - the $1,000,000.00 question is, what's the positive flip side?
*You ever looked in the home-improvement section of a bookstore? Check out some of the titles in the "picking a contractor" section. Most of them read something like "How to pick a contractor without getting screwed". It's embarassing. How did this image become so popular and universal? Are there titles like this in the "picking your lawyer" section? My wife works in a law office. I dread going to social functions with these people. They make snide comments about my profession and are simply dumbfounded at the cost of building or remodeling a home. This coming from someone who charged me $750.00 for doing what amounted to about 3 hours worth of work. That was to collect money. We build the houses their children sleep in and were not worth more than $20.00 an hour? I agree with Adrian,the ones that have it in their blood to build will do it, the others will find an easier way.
*If any kid came up to me and said he wanted to be a carpenter, I'd wash his mouth out with soap.If it was in his blood, he'd do it anyway.My family are all "professionals". College educated, know what wine goes with what fish, they eat in resturants with funny names where the only person there who gives me a rats ass is the buss help....you know the type. My own sister once said to me "Your business is doing so well.......who would have thought?" God I'm glad I'm not like them.If any kid really did come up to me and say he/she wanted to be a carpenter.........I guess what I should say is "Come back when your 18 and I'll give you a shot". What the hey, we can't all be doctors and lawyers.Long hours, low pay, no benefits, lousey weather, hard work, injuries, expensive tools........but I still love it.Ed. Williams
*Ed, after reflecting on all the negatives you still love it. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why?
*I don't see that any of this is a change from what has gone on for several generations. It is just another group of people "discovering" that society values professions over trades. It has been this way for a long time, probably since the Industrial Revolution.But, like I posted above, lots of kids want into the trades, but with a twist. They don't want to be a hand forever unless they find a specialized niche. This is a lot like many of the people who post on this Board. They have learned the trade and now have either moved into management/ownership or have found a specialized niche that fills their needs. Or, there are a couple who have dropped out and decided not to play the game at all.So, don't be too gloomy about this. There will still be kids going into the trades and there will still be people changing careers. But, for most they will do what many of us have done; move through being only a hand to owning the business and working more and more with the head and the computer.
*Oh, come on, Fred..Don't you read the trade mags. or the business papers?The HBA is going as far as investing money to create charter high schools to channel kids to the trades. The Unions of all trades are going inside high schools to recruit kids as they graduate. Every master Tradesman I speak with is worried about the future. There will be T.V. commercials romancing the trades just like the Army did a few years ago. (be all you can be) on your set soon. I think what you are talking about in your post is entrepreneurs, hell, this is America. There will always be those.I'm talking about 8:00-4:30 tradesmen/women.Luck
*Oh come on Mark this is no different than any one of a dozen other occupations. Lots of businesses and industries are recruiting and setting up their own schools. There are at least a couple reasons for this.First of all way too many kids in high school aren't literate. They can't read or write at any useable level and many can't at all. So, if someone wants decent workers they must train them. Then there is the problem of getting the kids to work at all. Lots of them have no idea what work is. Again a school need is formed. I can go on and on about this lack of quality in schools. That is one big reason lots of businesses and industries are developing their own schools.As far as the person whose total life goal is to always be a hand; you are right. I know very few of those. The one's who want to work and know how to work and have the smarts you can trust them alone on a job also know that being a tradesman forever is the way to being poor forever. That is why they are like I described in my first post, wanting the skill but moving on to owning their own business.So, if what you mean is that no one wants to be a wage slave forever; you are absolutely right. If what you mean is that no one wants in the trades; I think you misunderstand today's kids.
*Hey Peter,That's a good question and one I asked myself in a very serious way many years ago.Freedom.I know my trade, and I'm free to do it where and when I want. I can work here in Dallas, or pack my tools and go anywhere in the world and do what I do.My father was a chemist for Eastman Kodak. He had the only job in our small East Texas town for what he did. He couldn't go down the street and do it for someone else. He was stuck. There is an Eastman Kodak chemical factory in Longview, Texas, and that was it. They recruited him after WWII and he was there until he had enough and took an early retirement.I'm free.Ed.
*Coming from someone "new" to building (3 years) and having done that after leaving graduate school, I have to whole heartedly agree with this post Ed. There is an undeniable freedom in knowing that you can live and work where ever you go. Things might be built different in Texas than GA, but not THAT different that you can't pick it up pretty quick. I left a very promising graduate research program and the "prestige" that goes with it some time ago and I have never looked back. I love building more each and every day- the more I learn the more I see I don't know and then I try and learn more. There is so much to the art of building and to the interactions of building science, and what exactly can compare with the joy of sitting atop the roof you just decked, and soon sitting inside that house listening to God's rain come pouring down and it's dry inside b/c of the skill, knowledge, and care you took in building. I do think in has something to do with being in your "blood." People that want to do it will simply do what they see naturally must be done. I have the freedom to be myself and have my mind unfettered by the worry of the world. If we are living right, we have the opportunity to work by the sweat of our brow instead of the worry of our brow. The clarity and peace of mind in this work (if you can deal with a few monkey-wrenching subs!) is wonderful. Who knows, maybe I'll get tired of it...but it has been 3 years and I am only enjoying it more and more lately. -Israel, waxing philosophical
*Ed, When this subject came up a couple of years ago between Sonny and myself, I called it independence. The idea was the same, your destiny was in your own hands. If you wanted to market that concept to a bunch of young people (who by the way are fiercely discovering their own independence) how do you go about it? What do you say?
*Israel,Thanks for your inspiring words. I feel your long jouney to becoming a Master of this trade is well underway. Ed.
*Peter,I'm not sure this is the kind of thing you can inspire someone to do for a lifetime.Perhaps, and I feel awkward saying this, it's a calling?Those who are meant for this will do it no matter what.I don't want this to sound like being a carpenter is like being some kind of saint of something......some people become cops, some CPA's, some clerks or whatever. You can't force anyone to do anything. All you can do is offer the choice. I had the choice at lots of things, and being a carpenter just seem to fit for me.Ed.
*I think my age (36) puts me in the middle of the "old school" Master Tradesmen and the Generation X'ers. I've got remodeling and new construction in my blood. I worked for my father (bonny) while growing up, in grade school, high school and college.I learned respect for the trades and the industry at a young age. When my brother and I took over my fathers business 2 or 3 years ago, I learned something very important. Being a skilled tradesman does not preclude you from financial success or from being a "professional." As a matter of fact, I think my service in the field helped me to become respected by our clients and our peers. I was able to develop a sales and management style that reflected my knowledge and allowed me to speak intelligently with clients. This knowledge and experience also helped me to develop strong self-confidence. I represent professionalism and my clients and peers respect me accordingly. That self confidence and professionalism have also allowed me to enjoy financial success as well as the freedom of running my own business. A master trim carpenter can run his/her business professionally. Therefore enjoying all the benefits of a "computer leek", except for being called a "computer leek." I think society has more respect for successful businessmen/women than for dot comers and computer leeks.On a selfish note, as the demand for our services increases, and the supply of skilled labor decreases, the value of our experience and skills increases. Supply and demand, you gotta love capitalismThanks for your time.
*Ed,It sounds as though there's something personally fulfilling about the work that you and I do. I don't see that only as the freedom. What other things prove so satisfying that they capture our attention? Is it only the feeling at the end of the project of having created something unique?
*Hey Pete,No doubt about that. Also the brainstorming with other carpenters over a task at hand. The new ideas that come from discussing methodology with like minded people. Figuring out how to do something difficult is very rewarding to me. A big plus for me is the group thing. We band together with individual talents to complete something artistic. It's great to stand back and say........"We built that". I also like the smell of sawdust. I've also gotten huge satifaction giving away my skills to those who needed them most. It's fun to build the half million dollar library from imported African walnut....but it's personally fulfilling to hang a door for someone who needs it but can't afford it. My schedule doesn't allow for a lot of the later right now, but hopfully someday I will be able to spend more of my skills and the money I've earned helping the less fortunate instead of the over-fortunate. Right now I have employees who depend on me for thier living, and I do like to spend my off time (what little there is) with my wife.Freedom, intellectual stimulation, personal satisfaction. These things you can find in many professions........not just construction.Works for me.Ed.
*There are several ways of viewing how a person looks at their job. The way I think this thread started off was that this was a way to put bread on the table and why more people weren't choosing that way.Another way is how a person gets satisfaction with what they do. Now a person can work in a job that makes them misreable but pays really, really well. Then the can get their jollies by having a great hobby. But the best is for the job to be the hobby.If memory serves me right many, if not most, of the people who post regularly on this Board got here one of two ways. They either were raised by their Dad(or Dad substitute) into it, or they sort of stumbled into it while they were looking for a job. Then they either developed their own niche to make enough money to satisfy themselves, or they started running their own business while keeping a hand in the fun part of the job. So, stumbling into something while looking for a job not only isn't bad it is pretty common.The same will keep on happening today and in the future. Parents will train the kids. Kids will need a job, find banging nails, twisting wires, or burning rod is fun and decide to stay with it. Some of those "kids" may be a bit long in the tooth, but they will come.So, not to worry, there will always be enough skilled people to fill the real need as long as there is a good education system available somewhere somehow. That may mean trade payed for schools, or maybe public school reform. But as long as the "youngsters" can read, write and do math they will try the trades. Some will stick and some will go on to other things. That is the way it has been for a lot of years and that is the way it will be for a lot more years..
*Thanks Fred, really good points. Luck
*Ed, to your list I would include physical stimulation.Fred, I came to the trade by way of my Dad. There's one serious shortcoming to the way people come to the trade and that's by conscious choice. I think that's the area that needs the most work. You can't count on someone stumbling into a job. In order for more individuals to choose construction related jobs, the image is going to have to change.
*In my area, despite what I said above, there is no shortage of people going into the trades.Every program is filled; lots of those people are older folks retraining. The only shortage is work (something like a 35-40% unemployment rate here, some say higher). I taught for a while in a college trade program, still do part time, and I'm going to be doing it full time for the next little while anyway....this is the fourth crew I've been involved with (two year program). A lot of these people are first rate. Like Fred said, some of them aren't young, and some of them have life experience you wouldn't believe. A good portion of them are a little to a lot older than me, and I wish the best for them all, but it's not easy....a lot of these folks are starting their training at an age when others are looking to get out of it or move into a more supervisory role. I don't envy them at all, but it's a pretty grim reality here. There are a couple of miners in the class (mines are closing down). One took a severance, the other is going to school full time and doing double shifts down the pit every day he's not at school. No shortage of committment there. This whole region is made up of fishermen, miners, steelworkers, and construction guys; tradesmen are respected, and the kids know that. The big problem for us, is finding work for them, at the pace they need to experience. That's a local problem. Many of the best go 'away', and don't come back.I don't know what my point is here, really, except there are still quality people choosing the trades. I see big problems in the quality of work they are going to encounter (a constant dumbing down of the industry, and a constantly lowering standard of quality), and not enough money....doesn't apply to some of you guys, but it sure does to others. Wages in my field haven't changed since I entered the trade....I see lots of ads across this country looking for cabinetmakers, 10-11$ an hour with ten years experience and their own tools. Hasn't changed in fifteen years. Lick those two problems, and there is a fighting chance.
*Adrian- wow, just the opposite in other areas as far as work verses demand. Does your area have a decline in major employers? Is the whole job market depressed?I liked what you said about respect for the tradesmen. Do you attribute that to tradition or modern admiration? Thanks for your response.Peter, thanks for the point about image. Luck
*The more labor intensive construction labor slots around here are being filled mostly by Hispanics. The local kids just won't work hard enough. Both my sons have helped me and also have had other construction jobs, and they knew immediately they didn't want it as a career. They learned how to handle tools and build things, and enjoy that, but they're not consumed by it, like I am. They're both in college now, the oldest graduates in May with a major in graphic arts and a minor in business. His first job offer is for $65,000 a year right out of the gate, and doing something he loves. Bet he'll want me to help him fix up his first house, and maybe I'll get to his son.
*Adman,$10 - $11 US will get you a good apprentice in Dallas. I'm sorry to hear wages are so low where you are. I wish they were higher here. Ed.
*Mark and Ed; that $11 i mentioned is the going rate still in most places in Canada....it's lower here. I think the posted journeyman rate for cabinetmakers in Ontario is 16$ an hour, but I never met anyone making that.....some may be now, as things are busy, and there are exceptions that pay higher, of course.Here, if I posted a full time job tomorrow at $7 CDN (four something US?), I'd have hundreds of applicants. When I first moved here, I talked to one local shop, got offered 8$ an hour, and told I'd have to jump for that (and drive 45 minutes one way)....for a jounrneyman and ex-foreman. Anyway, that's here....long complicated story how the economy came to be where it's at....the latest chapters include disasters in the fishery, and the closing of the mines and the steel plant, all at the same time. Official unemployment rates go between 19 and 24%, but that doesn't count all the people whose benefits have run out....a lot...or who have officially given up looking for work. I think I said a real unemployment rate of 35-40%...some put it higher. It's a weird place, this little island in the Atlantic; beautiful, and the people are really wonderful, most of them; brave and funny even when they're up against the wall. Everyone here has a love/hate relationship with the place. Many go away to find work, but most would rather do anything to either come back here or to not have to leave in the first place. There is probably a Cape Breton Club in every major town in the US, with ex pats...Detroit and Boston are major Caoe Breton colonies.The respect for tradesmen; it's very real. This is a blue collar town, and tradesmen are held in high regard. Good tradesmen especially so; I get pretty fed up with some of the crap I see, but there are very good people out there too, same as everywhere I suppose. You'll see it especially when you go into an older person's house, the ones where the baloney was put on the table by a guy going down to work underground miles out under the ocean, mining coal shift after shift after shift, or in the coke ovens in the steel plant, or in the woods, or on the boats, or on a jobsite....if you're in boots and work clothes, they treat you like a king. A different kind of respect than a doctor would get (and doctors are royalty here); hard to describe, but very real. It's an old fashioned place, with old fashioned values.That's pretty long winded, but it's to add some context to the comments I made earlier.
*We have to remember that the trades are what is called "Low Entry Cost" occupations. That is different from occupations like doctors that are "High Entry Cost". That means that it is relatively easy to get started in a trade and to decide if it is for the newcomer or not. Of course the high entry cost occupations are going to have a bit more public prestige than the others. That is why the Master Craftsman rates respect while the "lowly" framer doesn't.It also means that the people who don't have their own niche or business are competing against the new guys who are just looking for a job. That is why so many companies are hiring the cheapest labor around. The fact is that most of the work done on the job site isn't very complicated, especially in trades like roofing. So, the guy who knows what is what owns the company, has a couple formen and hires the cheapest labor possible.But he doesn't charge them out cheap! One guy on the board here said he charges $230 a square? That is where most of the "kids" I know are headed. They want to try out the trade, then own their own. They know they don't want to be 50 and trying to compete with the latest bunch of low cost labor to cross the border.
*I'm not sure how far off the topic this is but ... 4 years or so, I went to have a chat with my old shop teacher. I was in the position that I needed an apprentice. I was looking for a bright young graduate that might not be suited for the college scene but was looking for a trade. Sadly, my former teacher couldn't recommend one single kid. He said that he was on the city's school board and was becoming more and more frustrated by the direction "society" wanted to push the kids. He told me that they were pushing everyone into getting PHD's behind their names and were ignoring the trades. Please don't get me wrong in that I feel it is an absolute necessity that we have Doctors, Lawyers and Scientists. But I feel that it is just as important that we have Butchers, Bakers and Candle stick Makers. The most profound comment that he made was, "There is going to be in 10 years some kid that knows his trade well that will write his own ticket and charge off the charts. The kid that went and got his or her PHD will not know what a screwdriver looks like, much less how to use it."Kinda sad.
*I'm not that far off away from being one of those kids. It was only 10 years ago that I had to make the decision of trades vs univeristy. I love working with my hands, I also enjoy working with my brain. The way I saw it then (and still see it was): Trades:- Pay is horrible - It's a long road of doing the "dirty work" until you get to a position where you get to really use your brain, and your hands- Will be fun when I'm twenty, but will it still be fun when I'm 60? What if I get injured?University:- Pay is much better - I can still do the "trades" as a hobby (I've built my own house and do all of my own car repairs)- I can move up the ranks much faster (I don't care about rank, but the work that interests me is done by those further up the ranks)So I choose the university path. I still hope to retire from this from my "white collar" job at an early enough age that I can work in the trades when I'm done. Realisticly, for someone who can enjoy working in either environment, I just couldn't justify working in the trades, when financially the university path was so much better.
*I find this whole discussion very interesting, and being a design professional, am extremely frustrated with the whole situation. Kids are not being directed into EITHER side of the "drafting board / CAD Station" for alot of different reasons. What it comes down to is, who is doing the best marketing right now? "Hi Tech". I do not see alot of good, high quality, VISIBLE marketing being put on by any of the design professions or the trade organizations. Computers will NOT design the world, let alone build it.
*Hey C,The way the trades are disrespected and underpaid, I'd be ashamed to solicit young people into this business.How's this for a come on: "Hey kids just picture this, you can sweat your buns off in the summer, freeze them off in the winter. You can earn enough to get by on AND end up with a bad back to boot. Retirement? You don't need no stinking retirement. We can't afford to stop working till we drop. But if you get hurt bad enough, there MIGHT be enough of an insurance settlement to live out the rest of your days in a doublewide out on Rt.121. Don't worry about the cost of sending your kids to college. You'll need to put them to work for you to help make ends meet when the insurance money runs out. So whatya say kids? Who's gonna sign up first? Oh, by the way, there may be a lay-off coming up in the next few months, but the state will look after you until you can find another job. Did I mention the satisfaction of seeing a job well done? Don't worry, that goes away after about 15 years. Oh yeah, there is the respect thing.......people love you when you finish on time, but don't bring up any change-orders, they don't love you THAT much." Sorry to be so negative.......it comes from years of experience.Don't get me wrong, I love what I do and wouldn't change a thing. But it's not for everybody. I wouldn't dream of trying to talk someone into this crazy business. Ed.
*Ed,I'm finding it depends on the type of business and.....Location, location, location!Plus specialization.....If......you can specialize, you can make some serious money......yep, the stuff you said 'bout sweating & freezing is true, but the pay thing is changing.Supply & demand.I'm finding "if" you provide a service that's lacking out there, you can very well name your price if the demand is there.I think in some areas, you will see laborers making great money compared to just a few years ago because of the demand. Same goes for all trades. Money, in the end, will do all the talking. In the meantime, I'd tell guys to specialize and slave (learn) as an apprentice to an old master. If they can afford it.......Plus.......as you said; ya gotta love it!
*Mark,Amen brother.I work in the high dollar part of town. In a town like Dallas, that's a very wide high dollar part of town. It does make a difference.If I had to work in the burbs......I might think twice. If I were back in the small East Texas town of Longview where I was raised, what we do is does not exist or is few and very far between. You got to admire those small town contractors.Ed.
*One hot August afternoon 15 years ago, I was walking down the street with my 2 year old son and new-born daughter. We passed by a triple-decker (common here in Boston) where a roofing crew was hard at work. One of the men spied us, and scrambled down the ladder and ran over to us. As sweat poured down his face, he wagged a finger at me and said, "Lady, whatever you do, when your little boy grows up, MAKE SURE HE GETS AN OFFICE JOB!"Whenever my son talks about not going to college, I remind him of this stanger's advice--as something to throw into the mix.
*Good advice coming from a roofer on a hot, summer day.
*
How 'bout it?
I just don't see bright, enthusiastic, young men & women making the above statement. More typical is someone waking up one day and declaring, "I need a job".
The causes?
Society, how people perceive tradespeople?
Pay?
What do you think?
Luck