I am looking at a multiple leak roof only in the heaviest of rains where each leak seems likely to be a result of poor flashing. It’s a Cape Cod with shed dormers front and back, and a shed porch roof off the back. The 3 tab shingles are no more than 10 years old, probably less. Could it be cost-effective to replace just the flashing. I normally would happy replace the roof, but since there are future plans to radically change the roof itself, the new roof now would be a waste. One estimate from a really good roofing company has given me an estimate for $7500 for 40 year shingles. Before I ask the roofing company for their thoughts, I thought I would get some knee jerk reactions from you all.
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Rather than knee-jerk, I would rather do an educated assessment based on some decent pictures close up of what these flashings look like, how installed, what kind of metal, what siding, etc.
Dran good cahnce that the leaks are in the sidning above the flashing in the cheek walls. It would be a shame to replace the entire roof and flashings only to discover that there is no wrap or tarpaper under the sidwall siding, or that it is wrapped with laps facing up
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Thanks Piffen:I will post some pics tomorrow. Let me answer your other questions. The siding is old aluminum thats not in a great condition. Under that is vertical redwood board and batten siding. Behind that is 1/2" of some weird creosote board (I think thats what you call it) and then the framing. When new windows were installed a few years ago, I treated the redwood minus the battens as the sheathing. There are plans to wrap and reside the house when the roof is reconfigured in the future.To be clear, the leaks are not near any windows, so that is not the issue. And I did add new flashing along the rear shed roof (easy access) to little avail which makes me think it could be the siding above.
Just yesterday, I repaired a leak in a two year old house...the house had gable dormers--my first thought was step flashing on the side walls, but it turned out to be where the fascia of the dormer died into the main roof. The framer hadn't left enough room to slide shingles under the subfascia, so instead of step flashing that little piece where the shingles butt into the 2x6 sub, the roofer just cut his shingles off and walked away from it. One of them had water coming right down the valley and into one of these little spots. I was able to pull off the steel fascia, slide step flashings in, and the things are watertight and you can barely see I was up there. Took about an hour to do 2 dormers. Might not be it, but worth a look.
The house isn't two years old is it? I'm guessing that the re roof is two years old and I don't see that it's flashed right anywhere. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The house was built in the 50's. The roof is best guess 7 yrs old.
These pics are the back of the house which has one large shed dormer.The first pic is the back of the house.The second pic is the lower dormner corner where it meets the roof. There are leaks in this area.The final pic is the dormer meeting the back porch roof and there is a leak here too. I did jam in a new piece of aluminum flashing behind the alum siding and over the top two rows of shingles. The top row is completely on top of the flashing for looks. That was two years ago and did not resolve the leak.
It appears that they reused the existing flashing when it was reroofed.
Yes you can replace the flashing, just remember that it is a pain in ask.
You will have to pay for some new siding, some new shingles as well
as new flashing.
I suppose one could see this as one of 4 options.1) replace flashings2) replace roof including flashings3) reside the house4) both a new roof and resideAnyone want to offer advice as to what to look for to determine my best cost-effective option.
Kind of depends on what you want to look at. New roof and new siding would be most expensive but you would have all new. I think it is in the realm of possibility to pull the siding off, slide new step flashings in, install new headwall flashing, and put the siding back. This would likely be your low cost option. Things never go back together the second time quite like they did the first, so you won't wind up with the queen's jewelry box. A competent person could make it watertight, however.
#4.I don't see ANY properly done flashing there. Doing the flashing right means replacing the siding and underlayment/wrap. The style roof that is means you will be replacing or at least touching a third of the shingles, so given the age they are, it just doesn't make sense to do anything but replace roof and siding with flashing done right.
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Specifically, what improperly done flashing do you see? Seems like the issue is the flashing is shot, not necessarily improperly done, perhaps with the exception of not having sealant under the headwall flashing. I can't really tell if it has step flashing or not.At any rate, why would replacing the head wall flashing (which goes over the existing shingles) and sliding new step flashings in involve 1/3 of the shingles? I don't follow your logic.
"Specifically, what improperly done flashing do you see? "Going from memory, since I am not going to go back and download them all again...The flashing i see is used. They replaced the shingles and tried to make the existing flashing work. It looks pretty beat up.on apron flashings - the face of the dormers running to downhill, I see no indication that it is played out over the shingles, so if it exists, it could be running water in under the shingles. On sidewalls, the old worn out verticle siding is tight to the roof, so it can wick water up and over any flashing that might or might not be in behind it.
BTW, on roofs where the dormers are so tight and with no overhang, siding details are as critical as the roofing is. They didn't even use an underlay behind the AL siding.On the chimney, it probably is copper, but The entire counter-flashing is one piece. I'd say there is a 10% chance it is turned into the mortar joints properly, because that is extremely hard to do right in a single run piece like that, which is why it has been tarred and re-tarred to the point that luck is keeping the water out.
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The entire counter-flashing is one piece.
I've run into that once. It was the finest flashing job I've ever seen, visually. It was perfect. Must have taken forever to layout and install. But it still leaked. The problem is water that gets in at the brick lap is not shed back out as it would be with individual flags.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Piffin I don't disagree that there is a lot of flashing in tough shape. You haven't made your point that 1/3 of the shingles need to be messed with. What I proposed to the OP was removing the aluminum siding (hard to see how that could wick water up and over the step flashing) and applying new head wall or apron flashing on top of the shingles and sliding new step flashings in. Install new building paper on the walls, lapped over the new flashing, and re apply the old siding or replace it with new. What I don't see is the need to replace all of the shingles to slide in a few dozen pieces of step flashing, unless he wants a new roof anyway.
"You haven't made your point that 1/3 of the shingles need to be messed with. "Didn't think I needed to make the point. It ain't a court of law.
I just stated my opinion based on twenty years of roofing.These are sealdown shingles, 7-10 years old and poorly done at the flashing junction. Good luck just sliding some step flashing in and expecting good results. What you going to do when there is a nial in the way- or seal strip, or caulk....
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"These are sealdown shingles, 7-10 years old and poorly done at the flashing junction. Good luck just sliding some step flashing in and expecting good results. What you going to do when there is a nial in the way- or seal strip, or caulk.."I got my 20 year pin too.Nails can be pulled with a cats paw. Sealed shingles can be popped with judicious use of a 6" taping knife and/or flat bar. Don't go up there on a hot day.
"I got my 20 year pin too."So you know there are 6-10 different ways to approach any problem. You got yours, I got mine.Somebody wants me to deal with that, i am not touching it unless I can do it right and gaurantee it is fixed. Yours is a maybe/probably that can cost almost as much.'course that's just my opinion now.
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Yes, Piffin, there's more'n one way to skin a cat. The OP is planning major roof modification a few years in the future, and he asks can he patch up this roof for a while without reroofing the whole thing. I say yes. Maybe prices are different where you live, but tear offs and redos are going for around 400 a square. If that roof is say 15 square, that's 6 grand. If that is what you would charge to redo the flashing, all's I can say is where do I sign up?
Let me interrupt you all with a different take on this. I suspect/worry/ponder that Piffin's earlier point that it could be the siding itself that is leaking. New flashing with or without a roof replacement would do me little good. Correct?I know there is no house wrap, and I know that the vertical siding does protrude to close to the roof line in many areas.The plans for a new roof/ dormer configuration are the front roof only, thus if I gave you a pic of the whole house you'd see that a siding replacement now would not be wasted (much) by new front dormers. I'd lose just the siding on the two small current front dormers. A new roof would almost all be wasted in the front of the house. If the roof costs me $7500, I suppose that's about a $3500 loss (factoring the back porch roof)Knowing that my new roof config in a few years from now is not definitive , I wonder if I just do it all. I hire out the roof redo for the spring and in the summer I can reside the house myself. I believe its best to roof (with all the flashing work), then side a cape code. That way the house wrap can go over the flashing details.
Thoughts?
To really get it flashed right, the siding is probably going to have to come off. Period. This doesn't have to be done with every single reroof, but judging from the condition of your flashing, it's time. If it is the siding leaking, you should be able to solve it temporarily with caulking. Roof leaks can be difficult to pinpoint. They can be even harder to pinpoint sitting at a keyboard 1000 miles away.
like I mentioned, a case of caulk can buy a couple years
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Or a bucket of tar
flashing done right would not be shot on a roof of that age especially the if it is copper. (The chimney )If you use good copper flashing and it is done correctly the roof it self will fail before the flashing. I have renovated 200 year old houses that had lead and copper flashing that was installed over 80-100 years before that was still shedding water away as effectively as when it was installed. of course the thin alum junk used today I would replace with every reroof but it should at least outlast a 10 year old 3 tab.So you are probably correct that the flashing was reused when they installed the roofing and also I would say it was not a very good flashing job to begin with. Or it would not be leaking.
Edited 4/13/2008 10:50 pm ET by MFournier
Remember he is anticipating redoing his total house in few years.
Yes it will be hard to get everything looking perfest but if he is redoing
the whole house, he only need a stop gap measure now.
In that case, a case of caulk and a prayer ought to hold things together for a couple years
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And I did add new flashing along the rear shed roof (easy access) to little avail which makes me think it could be the siding above.
Show us a picture of what you did.
This sounds like you need to buy some time.
A new roof and new siding today would be a waste of money since you have major renovations planned.
You need your flashings replaced. I say this loosely as it appears that the last roofer simply removed the flashings and didn't bother to reinstall them. The flashings need to be installed at the base of the dormers. This requires access behind your siding. Since you are going to rip it anyway, I would just pull the bottom piece of siding off by stretching the piece above with a siding zipper. Yes, I know it's 8" aluminum but it will come, be gentle. When you put the bottom piece of siding back on, install it about 1/16" to 1/8" higher to allow you to stretch the next one back over. Some face nailing may be necessary.
The siding on the dormer sides have to come off and go back on to put in the step flashing. You should easily be able to get them in between your roof shingles.
Make sure you check those window sill wraps, they look questionable.
carpenter in transition
Timkline:In message 8 I attached 3 pics. The one labeled wall to back porch roof shows the flashing I inserted.Thanks
View Image
Is this the one with the new flashing ?
carpenter in transition
Yes that's the pic. I shoved a 12" piece of alum flashing probably 6" inches behind the alum siding. It ended past the beginning of the second row I (glued)caulked the top row of shingles to the flashing for looks.
Front of the house pics are attached.The first pic is a general view of the house. The second pic is the side of the dormer. The missing siding at the top is more recent than the leak in that area.The last pic is the chimney, No leaks there and that flashing looks better to me than the rest. I assume its copper and the rest of the flashing is aluminum.
Edited 4/8/2008 10:25 am ET by apiersma