New furnace and a/c quote- wow!
This old cabinet maker needs some advice from HVAC experts.
I want to change out my 25 year old furnace and a/c and just got my first quote back.
What an eyeopener- it doesn’t look like lowball quotes you see in the newspaper.
Furnace choices are Trane xv95 95% efficient var. speed 2 stage unit for $5400
or Trane xv80 80% efficient var. speed 2 stage unit for $4000.
Both include pvc/flue and multistage thermostat. Trane humidifier add $600,
electronic air cleaner add $1600.
My question(s) is/are is this in the ballpark for a straightforward install and is the
xtra $1400 worth paying for the 95% efficient unit. What about the costs for the
humidifer and electronic air cleaner?
The a/c choices are even more interesting- (all 3 ton)
Trane xr13 13 SEER standard a/c $3200
Trane xl16i 16 SEER 2 stage $6300
Trane xl19i 19 SEER 2 stage, 2 compressor unit $$7450 (all include new evap. coil)
Electric costs 12 cents kwh.
Sq. ft. and window sizes and types were taken for sizing calcs.
Please some sage advice also on the a/c choices.
Replies
I got tired of paying the gas and electric bills. My HVAC unit worked and was 35 years old. I switched to a Hybrid unit just a fancy name for a gas furnace with a heat pump. I went with the 95% efficient gas unit and 18 SEER heat pump. Did some additional things like more insulation and draft sealing. My Electric bills fell from $500.00 + a month down to a high of $150.00 for August. I have not had a heating load on the system yet. The two stage outside unit is phenomenal. It runs on the lower stage most of the time. The house feels cooler at 3 degree higher setting. I think that is because the inside temperature remains constant with less swings. Your prices except for the Humidifier look about what I paid.
Edit- warning: You know of course, if you ever try to DIY HVAC your entire family will die a horrible death in a big explosion - of some would have you believe.
3 weeks ago my neighbor came over with similar responses, he was in sticker shock from getting $7K and higher quotes for similar to your situation for just the furnace.
See you have just 4 posts in 3 years from profile??? Filling in your profile (click on your own name) would help as costs for HVAC do vary with climate.
That said, showed neighbor (who works for the gas company, so competent to install gas piping) that he could get a Goodman 2 speed 95% funance DELIVERED for under $1k from various places off the internet. Thus a 1 or 2 weekend job would pay him > $$100 and up for DIY labor. Likewise, a visit to Grainger can be even lower cost, just took a look and they have a few closeout 92.5% furnaces for $700!!
If you have the skill set and tools for NG piping - pipe dope, wrenches, paint brush with soap, not a complete dummy, basic elec. skills, etc - look into DIY. If you need specific advice on skills, see the warning?
PS: dont even mention DIY or quote any prices at hvac-talk.com, you will get jumped on immediately <G>
Edited 10/6/2008 10:50 pm ET by junkhound
Ditto Junkhounds advice!
I installed my first furnace myself . I ordered a high efficency unit from the gas company and picked it up at their dock.. It took me a saturday to insatll it and adapt the metal work in the flue to the new sizes.
Then I paid my gas company to come out to check my installation and set and adjust everything.
At that point I'd saved myself over $1100 over my lowest quote to have a HVAC guy do it.. (I gave the old furnace to a guy who was building a cabin up north and would only use it a few weekends a year so felt the cost of new high efficency over free wasn't justified. )
a few years later I tore down my old house and saved the furnace to reinstall. (I also saved most of the heat flue and reused that. I doubt I've spent $100 to do the removal and reinstall.
However Fair warning
The energy I saved by using a new High efficency furnace merely kept pace with the higher cost of gas.. The real savings was much better insulation..
To give you a real world example my old house with the new furnace cost me $500 a month to heat during the winter. The new house which is twice as large with 3 times as many windows costs me just $200 a month.
The real trick is finding someone to sell you the furnace you want for a do-it-yourself installation..
IT can be done but you have to get creative..
Odd that the cheaper unit has the variable-speed fan -- usually it's the top of the line.
A variable-speed, DC drive fan is worth a few extra bucks since it really reduces the electrical use of the furnace -- probably pays for itself in under a year.
"Odd that the cheaper unit has the variable-speed fan -- usually it's the top of the line."Not that uncommon.I had looked in some online list and later verified it with deal. 80% units with variable speed fans are common.What I could not find are any with seal combustion. And since I wanted to go with dual fuel the gas would not be used that much and don't think that the 90+ is near important to me as being able to use outside combustion air.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I just paid $7900 for a high efficiency set up like yours. got a $500 rebate. hope that makes you feel better
I just replaced my 50+ y/o gas furnace and 20 y/o undersized a/c unit with a Carrier hybrid system - 95% gas and 19 seer 3 ton heat pump installed for about $11K.
Those prices seem about right. Maybe a hair on the high side. You didn't say what size the furnace is. Yours might be larger than mine.
I really like the variable speed 2 stage. You usually can't tell it's running and as someone else mentioned, it seems cooler at a higher setting due to less temp swing. Regardless of the $ savings, the comfort level is much better.
My 1st month's elec bill with it was $50 less than the previous month's and I was without a/c for half the previous month. Time will tell, but I think the payoff will be fairly quick.
Haven't heated yet, but the heat pump should do the majority of that.
BTW, I looked into buying a comparable system online and doing the install myself. By the time I figured in all the parts and pieces I would have only saved about $2500. It was a tricky install (the outside unit was moved to the side of the house from the back and the linesets, 220, and the flues had to go above finished ceilings. There was also some tricky sheet metal work I could have done, but I was impressed with the work. It took two pros two days and they earned their money. I doubt that I could have done it in a week.
Oh yeah - I was advised to forget the electronic air filter. The new furnace filters are nearly as complete and apparently there's a fairly high failure rate on the electronics. I also didn't get the humidifier. I've had 4 houses with them on the furnace and none worked when I bought the house.
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Save the 1600 on the electro air filter. There are much better filters available that don't break and remain quiet at all times.
Out of 12 units, within the first 4 years 5 were NG. after 10 there were none in operation. I don't care what anyone says, never again.
I had my Air/Heat unit replaced two years ago, with a Carrier Hybrid system rating were similiar to the other posters 95% on Heat and SEER 19 on the two stage air unit. Cost was around $12 K to include a humidifier and air filter. One word of caution Carrier makes the Air unit in both a scroll and piston compressor. I would stick with the scroll compressor due to less mechancial wear and the efficiency of the unit does not degrade over time. I has brought our utility bills down by approximately $200 month in electric during the hot summer months and another $100 per year in gas during the winter months in the Northeast.
One of the benefit of the Hybrid unit, at least in PA, is that you can get a break on electrical use if you notify your utility provider of the heat pump. Our provider gives a discount ( ithink it is 50 percent) on any electricity use over 600 KWH per month during the months of October through March.
Also regarding the air cleaner quote, the one we obtained from the HVAC company was an Aprilaire unit, it was cheaper then the Carrier unit and you can filters for the unit online at reasonable price. It takes about 15 minutes to install them and they should last for about a year.
The carrier unit thermostat has in a builtin controller for the humidifier and we have not had any problems with excessive moisture buildup during the winter and it has reduced the static electricity to being nonexistent throughout the house. We had a humidifer on the old unit but could never get it to regulate properly.
"One of the benefit of the Hybrid unit, at least in PA, is that you can get a break on electrical use if you notify your utility provider of the heat pump. Our provider gives a discount ( ithink it is 50 percent) on any electricity use over 600 KWH per month during the months of October through March."One should NEVER look at changing HVAC systems with checking with both the state and the energy providers.There are so many different rebates and special "programs" that need to be looked at..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You might price the unit purchased w/out installation and use some judgements. You won't likely be able to charge a refrigerant system, but you could install the furnace, make a duct connection (even if you special order a transition, it's still an ok thing), and you could run gas piping yourself. Hire a contractor to pick up the loose ends. High eff. units do cost a premium, but can have their benefits.
Humidifier and/or air cleaner ... if you need or see a special value in them. If you're not using them now and don't see a need, then don't use them. When I put my furnace in once, I had a 2 inch pleated filter section made so I could have a quality filter over the cheezo filter that came w/ the furnace. I bought a case of filters ... changed them once a year (maybe too long). Got good efficiency out of it w/out paying big bucks for e.g. HEPA or other filtration systems. Remember, if you open windows or use your doors (duh) ... you potentially have a lot of air born dirt and dust ... personally, I think it rare to need more filtration in a residence than a good quality filter in the return air stream. ... personal opinion.
We use pleated filters in commercial setting exclusively. Take a look at this:
http://www.furnacefiltercare.com/pleated-air-filters.php
We are currently testing several different brands of filters in one of our air hanndlers. I'm not sure who came up with this brillent idea, or how they intend to determin witch one is best. Guess I'll just wait and see if they just eyeball them or actually know how to test them.
My personal prefeance is 2" pleated filters and a quaterly change schedule. I use that on my shop building and DW's studio/kennel building. The 2" filters give twice the suface area of the 1" filters and are stiffer also, so there is less chance of them collasping if you you let them go to long between changes.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the pleated style tends to be inherently better than the 'spun fiberglass'. Just look at them.
Lots of variation in construction of the pleated filters ... they test their efficiency by pressure drop and how big of particulates pass through them. HEPA filters are the best, but you pay for what you get and most houses can't really justify a HEPA style filter ... though I've seen them used on rare occasions.
As filters 'plug' they filter better ... and fan energy decreases ... but you still need to change the filters regularly as these really are not good excuses to 'leave them alone'. You do need to maintain air flow. Sounds like your applications are good for quarterly changing ... my once a year for a house was a bit too long ... they were well loaded when I changed them. Shops and kennels may even warrant monthly changing ... a visual check should give you a reasonable idea of how you are doing. Commercial applications often employ a magnahelic differential pressure gage system to tell if the filters are loaded. Pressure drop gets past a certain point and it is time to change them.
We even hook these up to a computer so I can tell by logging on to the internet to see if my filters are loaded. Great way to diagnose problems w/out going into the field so much.
We are just "testing" pleated filters. I don't know how our "rocket scientist" are going to determin which is best.
I just put all the samples in, and walk off grinnig. I'm not smart enough to be part of our management team.
Nothing like a little research to help you figure out what they are trying to learn with this "test". (Course, that research won't get me a xmass gift from a vendor either.)
Being a bottom feeder doe have some funny moments though :)
and you always learn something from it ... right?
When my heat pump went out a couple years ago, I called the company that had installed it when I built the house in 1988. They wanted $2400 to replace it and I thought that was fine. A friend of mine that taught heating and refridgeration at the local vo-tech contacted a supply house and said if I'd help him we could do it for $850! Needless to say, that's what we did.
One thing I would consider is not going with an electronic filter. I like the big/deep paper/fiber filters that you change twice a year.
I like the idea that the air has to pass through a filter. Just keep up on the changing of it.
Do you need a humidifier? I have ours (came with the house) turned off.
Has anyone figured out where you live? If you live where subzero winter high temps are a regular occurence the answers are different than if you live in the deep south.
For my location, (northern Illinois) I would get the best furnace, the least expensive AC, and a 4" MERV 11 media (non-electronic) air cleaner. Humidifier may or may not be a nice addition depending on where you live and how you live as well as the construction of your home. IF you need a humidifier, get a powered, not recirculating type, else the 95% AFUE furnace becomes a 90% efficient unit (depending on the details, maybe 92%). Trane does not make humidifiers. Get a Honeywell or AprilAire if you need one. I like (have and use) the one with the microprocessor controller that adjusts RH based on outside air temperature.
In my opinion the installed costs of the furnaces are not out of line, and the base AC looks reasonable as well. The extra's are overly inflated.
The "lowball quotes in the newspaper" are just that.
Companies know that most people shop on price, and the only way to get your attention is with a (seemingly) low price. Once the job starts, the extras start showing up.
Those "zero interest financing offers" are a scam- the pricing structure has those losses built in. Someone always pays for financing, and it won't be the HVAC outfit.
Any new AC unit should have a new evaporator (indoor) coil and a new lineset if the old one is accessible. This is critical when the old unit is a 10 SEER (or lower) and the new one is 13 SEER or higher. Doubly so if you are going from R-22 to R-410A.
Do not let anyone tell you otherwise.
Any job should start with a load calculation.
SEER ratings take the whole system into account, so if it is not installed properly, you will not get your SEER rating.
Yes, some say that HVAC is not "rocket science", and neither is sticking wood together with nails. You can buy HVAC equipment online, and you can go to a big box to buy wood and nails. Sometimes, either DIY attempt results in a net loss, and someone is called in to fix it. Sometimes it works just fine.
A lot of HVAC manufacturers will void warranties on internet sourced equipment. It is up to you to find out how they do that, should something go wrong. Will the internet help you get the system working when it breaks at 1 am?
Some companies will offer lowball pricing just to get work because they are slow. Rest assured that corners will be cut during the install to maximize profits. This is true for any trade.
On the flip side, customers with money in slow times push prices lower between bids, then complain about the end result.
Get a few estimates, and make sure you know what is being provided, how it is to be installed and to what standards.
Lots of luck.
Wow, to the board.
Thanks for all the responses!
For the record I'm in northern Illinois.
The comments about skipping the electronic air cleaner and going to pleated filters
are something to think about.
I found a HVAC calculator on the net that shows it would take 50 or 70 years
additional run time to pay off the higher SEER A/C units over the standard one,
thats an eyeopener too.
Thanks again to all.
Where in N. IL. ? I might have some local sources to provide alternates.
Chicago Area.
" I found a HVAC calculator on the net that shows it would take 50 or 70 years
additional run time to pay off the higher SEER A/C units over the standard one,
thats an eyeopener too."Does that take into account rebates and tax incentives?http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/map2.cfm?CurrentPageID=1&State=IL&RE=1&EE=1http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=heat_cool.pr_hvac
AC credit $300
Furnace credit $150
Must be placed in service Jan-Dec 2009
per http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#chart
still makes the A/C look not worth the upcharge
Don't forget there are State rebates available in addition to the Fed programs.
Call your local Gas and electric provider for specifics.
To me the one benefit of forced air heat (over hot water radiant) is having a humidifier. I agree with the comment to get a powered one. I have two of the Aprilaire models, and I think they added $350 to the price (but I'm not sure).I also concur with not using the electronic air filter. They add ozone and they short out. I went with the 6" pleated filters. They last at least a year here in central Ohio.
I've seen some numbers regarding those thick filters and they do tend to reduce airflow by a signicant percentage. That may or may not be a factor. Depending on if your furnace was oversized (likely in modern really well built homes with Foam insulation) or if your duct work is well designed and installed..
With regard a humidifier.. Forced air does tend to dry out more than in floor radiant heat.. MY home uses plants to maintain a comfortable level of humidity (and extra oxygen) only at the extremes of tempurature is there any need for suplimental moisture. (20 BELOW OR GREATER) usually on those days my wife cooks stew or chili to provide us with the required humidity to be comfortable but worst case I leave an open dish of water near the bed and the evopration from that is enough to keep me comfortable.. That occurs maybe once or twice a winter..
" With regard a humidifier.. Forced air does tend to dry out more than in floor radiant heat.."Wrong..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I've seen some numbers regarding those thick filters and they do tend to reduce airflow by a signicant percentage.
Any time you stick a filter in the airstream, you increase restriction.
The problem with most residential installs in my experience is the lack of proper duct design to achieve proper airflow.
I have seen more than one instance of a furnace capable of moving 2000 CFM sucking through a single 16 x 25 pleated filter with a 14 x 20 cutout on the side of the furnace cabinet.
The 16 x 25 filter is too small to start with, the small opening adds to the problem, and sticking the filter on the side of the furnace cabinet makes it worse.
Doing it right takes time and costs money, and the majority of customers do not want to pay for the job to be done right- nor do they want to look at the bid beyond the final number. When things are explained in detail, many customers take the info to their low priced buddy, or simply lose interest because the details are boring to many.
you're absolutely correct, but our only hope is to get that information out to as many people as possible.
Once something becomes common knowledge people accept it and move on..
Oh another thing I hate are butted 90degree bends. where one pipe is butted to another without even a bend put in .. wow! does that destroy airflow numbers. Not as bad in my opinon but still airflow destroyers are tight bends when there is room for big sweeping bends. Or those segmented bends which are really just a series of butted bends..
Real decent piping is a thing of beauty in and of itself. But far and away what I typically see is quick and dirty, get-er-done sort of work..
Well my house was build in 1901, and the walls are all brick. To say it is tight is laughable. To say the duct system is well designed would cause convulsions.In fact I'm trying to find someone to re-do part of the return from the first floor registers because of all the holes in the ducts (knob-and-tube wiring, water pipes). I'm not having much luck.I hate having plants inside. They release pollen and provide the cats with something to dig in. Or chew and throw up. I doubt that forced air is any drier, but the ability to add moisture throughout the house (as opposed to having pots of water sitting on radiators) is the one plus.
OK I understand your circumstances better now. The reason forced air tends to be dryer (without a humidifier) is because of the required air movement. that inevitably carries with it dust particles which attract moisture at near the molecule level and then the added weight of that dust settles. With it the moisture that would be in the air..
In floor radiant heat (Note: not radiators) generates heat at the point most of us feel cold first.. (our feet, because they are the furthest from our heart) and gently heat rises so as long as there is a good insulation in the ceiling the temp in a home with in floor radiant heat is very even..
Forced air on the other hand blasts (please excuse the use of such a pejorative word but there is no better) super heated air from the ductwork into the room which in turn warms up much of the rest of the room.. However warm air rises which puts the majority of that forced air at the ceiling not at your feet..
So rooms tend to be heated to a greater extent in an attempt to keep your feet warm which further dries the air..
Solutions for increasing the humidity with in floor radiant heat would be to use existing or new ducting to bring moisture from a humidifier into the rooms which need it..
(kitchens, bathrooms, closets don't for example)
Doing in floor radiant work is really simple basic stuff.. heck if I can figure out how to do it it's got to be simple. The complex stuff is easy to find help with. The actual install is more a matter of simply putting tubing up in place.