Gents,
So I just started a new job as a lead carpenter. Things are going fine until I try to order some materials…the lumber rep stops out at the office to pickup a check, do a meet and greet with my boss etc. Long story short, the secretary tells him that they dont have the money in the account, sorry.(less than a grand, this order)
Later this same week, I find out that he occasionally bounces checks to the employees, and suppliers also. I’ve counted a total of 6 bounced check stories….
Of course, he has no accounts anywhere. Turns out his company was bankrupt a couple years ago, now he has a different name.
I have yet to talk to him about this. The funny thing is he checked every reference I had, gave me a psychological test, long interviews, a big employee manual, etc. Seemed very legit. He says he has 800 grand worth of work to be produced….
The thing that freaks me the most is that he’s got almost no regular, “go to” subs. I guess that they all got burned
I guess my question to everybody is “can a business bounce back from bankruptcy and succeed?” he did tell me at one time he was in the Big 50 of remodeling companies.
Replies
My initial response is don't believe everything you hear, from him particularly. I have worked for or been around a couple of those type of operations. Pay off the last job with the draw from the next one. It catches up to you. I would be very careful with my pay from this guy. The no repeat subs makes you wonder why. I've got a suspicion. But then again, I certainly could be wrong.
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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
We have a contractor in our town who is reasonably big in size for the area. He has had at least 4 different company names that I am aware of. He has been bankrupt twice and was caught doing work on the local newspaper editors house a few years back, they were billing the newspaper! He was on the front page during the trial fessing up to it all and the editor went to jail and made restitution.
After all that, he still is in business and has one of the largest yellow page ads. Seems pretty busy from seeing his trucks around. Is he making money? I don't know but he must be at least keeping his head above water. Hope your guy can too! DanT
I'd have a heart to heart with the guy. Tell him what I'd thought I'd seen and give him a chance to answer your concerns. Depending on how that went, I'd decide how much I wanted that job, and how much of what he said I believed.
I will tell you this, though. Guilt by association is a powerful shadow. If this guy really did underhanded stuff to the point that subs don't want to work for him, it will reflect on you, in other's eyes. Is that fair? No, but it's real.
Give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe past employees ruined his company's reputation and that's why he was so careful about hiring you. But just the fact that you ask something like this to a group of people you don't really know should be enough of a red flag that this is a serious situation.
Better clear the air, it's fair to you and it's fair to him.
If I were you I would start looking for a more stable Job. Sucks that you just got this one then you have to start looking for another one, but do you really want the hassle down the line when a check bounces?
Sounds real ify to me I'd be looking for a new job He may be ok but not with my time(money)
Daniel
Jim's right, I'd definitely have a sit down with this guy. "Honesty is always the best policy," so it's best to let him know your true concerns and then see how he reacts. Your insticts should tell you pretty quickly if he's legit or not. If he has genuine reasons, he'll want to explain them to you and settle your fears. If he's full of sh*t then he'll either blow it off like you're over reacting or he'll suddenly become unreasonably defensive. Whatever his response, it should be fairly telling.
Assuming that course of action doesn't get you the definitive results you are seeking, then plan B would be to subtly find out who some of his past subs are. Then ask them "off the record" and "tradesman to tradesman" why they are unwilling to continue to do business with someone who supposedly has so much to go around ($800k). If they're worth their salt, they should be willing to let you know what you may (or may not) be in for and why. Here again, your instincts should tell you whether they have a legit beef or whether they're justing crying sour grapes because they didn't perform on their end for some reason.
However it goes, good luck and remember to look out for yourself and your reputatioin first. In our industry that's the most important assest you've got!
Get out of there for all the reasons .You have no reason to stay. I dont think you are thinking about quitting though.
I saw a builder come back and hes rooted now. Depends on the person. Hes a great person.
Tim Mooney
Jim Blodgett hit the nail on the head: "Guilt by association is a powerful shadow".
Do you really want people to know you work for this guy? How's his reputation?
I've worked for 2 companies that were in the process of going bankrupt. Really stinks. Fortunately I had no kids at the time and found other work quickly. Pretty much every company that I've seen go under doesn't give their employees any notice. They just tell them they're shutting down effective immediately, and have a nice life. We'll mail you your last check whenever we feel like it.
I'm not sure I'd buy into the idea of having a heart to heart talk with the guy. If he's going under again, what are the odds he'll be honest with you? Unless you can read between the lines/read his charachter pretty well, I think it would be a waste of time.
Best of luck, whatever happens. And don't forget to come back and tell us how things worked out.
I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception.
DRHRosie (My DW) is a Chef. She has worked for many different restaurants. Only one did she decide to give the place a chance. They ended up owing her $5000 when they closed the doors.
She has a good rule of thumb------When the suppliers show up asking for cash BEFORE they will even unload then it's time to run. I know new contractors might be on a C.O.D. deal, but most will start unloading while the cash is being tallied.
Run man and don't look back. Too many job changes in one year does not look good on a C.V.I'm all here....... 'cause I'm not all there!
>I'm not sure I'd buy into the idea of having a heart to heart talk with the guy. If he's going under again, what are the odds he'll be honest with you? Unless you can read between the lines/read his charachter pretty well, I think it would be a waste of time.
Completely agree. If the guy's bouncing 6 checks, he obviously has issues, and honesty is one of them. Likely he's quite adept at telling people what they want to hear. I feel sorry for people when they are down on their business luck, but check-bouncing and other unethical practices aren't the preferred ways to climb back out. I'd think odds are high that when he hits his next inevitable cash crunch--"clients forgot to sign the deposit check, I'll have it next week"--the first thing you'll see is a delay in the paycheck. First time you hear, "I'll make it up next week, ok?" run for the hills.
I've never experienced a late paycheck, but I've heard plenty of horror stories. Since I've never in my whole career worked for a company that was consistently profitable, I thought I should decide in advance how I would react.
My plan is, the first time I don't get my check at the regular time, I'll tell them, "OK, call me when the checks come in," and go home. I won't quit, but I won't work anymore either, and I'll start looking for another job, if I wasn't already.
I was asked to do some sub work for a company years ago. Asked around about them and was told to be careful. I told them I could work as long as I had a check on Friday. Check on Friday, I'll be there Monday. No check on Friday, call me when you have a check. It worked well for a couple months. Then one day the job super came out and hand delivered checks to all the employees (not subs) on site. He just happened to have a check for me so he gave it to me. When he left the site most of the employees hopped in their cars and started heading out, pretty quickly. I stopped one of them and asked , "what's going on?". He said "Sheeit, man! We got our checks we gotta go to the bank! It was like they were all racing to the bank!
A while later they came back and at least 2 of them couldn't cash their checks. I called the bank and mine was no good either.
This was towards the end of a high dollar restoration of a 1905 Victorian. The homeowner (who, of course, wanted his job finished) took over paying me to finish my part.
Slowly the number of employees dwindled. It was a real PIA for the homeowner.
My job was to teardown and rebuild a chimney/fireplace and make it fire safe. My price was somewhere around $7200.00 The homeowner showed me the billings he was getting from the contractor:
Teardown chimney to the roofline.....................................$12,000.00
Teardown chimney from roofline to 2nd floor.....................$10,000.00
That's all I saw, but that was enough.
This guy went out of business shortly. BUT.............................
He has gone back in to business but with a whole new set of subs.
One of my pet peeves is:
If you are going to give someone $500,000.00 to build your dream home, why oh why don't you find out who it is you're giving your money to.
Here I go, off on a tangent again.......................
Rod
Thanks for the tangent .
Tim Mooney
I just wanted to say how hard it is to work a job when you are worring if you are going to get paid . I had to chase a builder down every week or so for a while and realized it wasnt worth the lifestyle. Maybe this will be worth something to someone.
Tim Mooney
You're not in central PA are you? Sounds just like a guy I subbed some work off of a few years ago. He bounced his employees checks every couple weeks. They told me the first couple to get to the bank got the money, everybody else got f**ked. He had employee turnover every couple months. Been thru six different crews in the last two years as far as I've heard. Everything just turned out bad for everyone, but he still has more work than anyone in this area.( go figure) Get out before you get hurt. Good luck.
Greg
Thanks for the responses everybody. I am leaning more towards running away; quicklike. The more I think about it, if he can't get bank credit, then the most his business can grow is by the dollar amount of customer deposits. Which impacts me because I want to get with a company that's expanding and play a role there, making more $ all the while. Sounds like I bet on the wrong horse. Homer
I'm in central PA Greg, and I was thinking the same thing. But I'm sure anyone anywhere was thinking the same thing. I've never been stiffed but I check out anyone I deal with as thoroughly as I can.
Keep your ear to the ground. Occasionally your mouth when it is necessary if you know what I mean.
Personally I believe you have a responsibility to pass information about shady types along. Save someone else from being the next sucker. It's always fraudulent thieving when you spend money you don't have or haven't earned yet. I don't care what the law says. Let me state that more clearly, bankruptcy is legal theft by fraud. And its applied retroactively. I wouldn't work for a known thief unless I was out of all other options. Tom
Where at in central PA? I live close to Huntingdon, but all my work is in the State College area. Greg
Greg,
I guess I'm in the other central pa, Harrisburg area. I went to school at Penn St. and consider state college to be one of my favorite places in the world. I try to get up when I can but haven't been there in a year or two.
TomTom
I wasn't aware there were two central PA's. MW has family all around Harrisburg, we get down there a couple times a month. I'm always out on the Susquehanna fishing. Give me a hollar and we'll go catch some bass sometime.Greg