Replies

1. 
   Stray | Sep 10, 2002 06:04pm | #1

   !$%&*&#!@! prospero...

   Trying to attach for the 4th time

   
2. 
   BillHartmann | Sep 10, 2002 06:41pm | #2

   Stray

   You can do that. But I am assuming that you will probably go with a 200 amp service. And that will probalby require you to replace that pannel, not just increase the size of the main breaker (unless the pannel is already rated 200 amps).

   There are a couple of options. One is to do nothing. You can have upto 6 disconnections (mains) on the service. Just tie the 3 sets of service lines to the one meter.

   You can install a new main pannel and make the 3 existing pannels sub-pannels.

   Note in some areas it is common, and in other areas required, to have an outside disconnect. If that is required I would go ahead and make the outside disconnect a main pannel and feed the 3 existing as sub's.

   NOTE - this is one area where the is LOTS of variations between the difference AHJ (cities).

   I believe that all of options that I suggested are technically correct, but might not be allowed in some areas.

1. 
   Stray | Sep 10, 2002 07:58pm | #3

   "One is to do nothing. You can have up to 6 disconnections (mains) on the service. Just tie the 3 sets of service lines to the one meter."

   Bill, I like this option! I just assumed that you needed 1 main breaker (That's what I get for assuming). This certainly sounds like the cheapest way out.

   Do you think there'd be any problems physically connecting these 3 feed wires to the one meter (ie space or lug-size constraints)?

1. 
   BillHartmann | Sep 10, 2002 08:43pm | #4

   Stray

   I really don't know. I have never worked on that side of the pannel.

   In fact I am working on a friend's house now trying to get some screwed up wiring replaced.

   But the service entrance and main pannel needs to be replaced and she is going to get an electrician for that part.

3. 
   DavidThomas | Sep 10, 2002 09:35pm | #5

   Stray, I too like the idea of tying the three meters together. With service to only one and then continuing from that meter to the three distribution panels ("breaker boxes") inside. Looks like all the enclosures and connecting conduit could be used. Just pull a few new wires in and amongst teh 2 meter-head enclosures. And put put blank covers on the two removed meter holes.

   Can't imagine a lug/connector issue that couldn't be solved easily. One or two wires in each lug (if three aren't allowed) and then to a cable connector inside the enclosure to tie all three wires together (three for each leg and for neutral/ground). I forgot what they are called, but they function as big wirenut. A block of metal with set-screw lugs and some goo and heat-shrink tubing to seal it all up. I had to use them when a backhoe tugged several inches of cable out of a service entrance, leaving me just short of the terminals.

   David Thomas   Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
1. 
   Stray | Sep 10, 2002 10:22pm | #6

   Thanks David.

   This is sounding better and better. I had hoped to get rid of the 2 unused meter boxes for aesthetic reasons. I guess if I need to keep one, or both, to make this work cheaply than so be it.

4. 
   MajorWool | Sep 10, 2002 10:37pm | #7

   Just did this a year ago as well, as we are returning a large house that was subdivided into up/down flats back to single family. In my case, we had (2) 4 circuit fuse boxes, each with (2) sub boxes to run a stove (40A) and an electric HWH (30A), for a total of 6 boxes. One of the fuse boxes must have supplied the 30A dryer circuit. The inspection stickers on the boxes were dated 1949 (Eeek!).

   I already knew who was going to do the work, so I invited him to the house and we spent a good hour and a half thinking about a new system from scratch. In the end, we put the new box on the other side of the house since that was where 90% of the power drain was located. This is important because most of the connections were made by just shortening the existing wires. Those few circuits on the side of the house where the boxes were located were taken care of with a couple of runs of 12-3 to a JBox in the joists over the old box location.

   The new system required a meter main box located at the front corner of the house since it was going to take about 20 ft of 4/0 to get back to the new box in the basement. Its now kind of funny because we used a 30/40 box, and have filled up 29 of the openings using doubles in 9 of the bottom 10. But once we take care of other renovations and convert to gas, there will be 10 openings at the top where the two stoves, two HWH, and the dryer went. In fact, my load calculated per NEC will be down to about 60 A.

   In looking at your setup, I'm wondering if you could get by just feeding one meter into one panel and then subbing the other two off of it, or subbing one off of it. This is definitely one of those occasions where you want to think outside the box (har har).

   Bob

5. 
   MajorWool | Sep 10, 2002 10:40pm | #8

   I just noticed that the panels are mounted on wood. I thought they had to be mounted on a fireproof (resistant) material, at least in our area they do.

   bob

1. 
   Stray | Sep 10, 2002 10:59pm | #9

   Bob, Not sure about the wood mounting vs fireproof. I have 3 houses and all panels are mountd on plywood. Perhaps new construction NEC is different. These are all at least 15 yrs old.

6. 
   maneyj | Sep 10, 2002 11:54pm | #10

   As long as the panels are all together you don't need to do anything. The National Electrical Code allows you to have up to six service disconnects as long as they are in the same area and are properly labeled.

1. 
   fireball | Sep 11, 2002 04:55am | #11

    How about just doing it right instead? Scrap the extra meters and put one correctly sized drop/meter /base in first.Then combine the branch circuits into one appropriately sized service panel.Remember all of that wiring outside is unfused and unnecessary now.Inside you have to have a disconnecting means as soon as practicable.That panel on the right looks like it's 5 feet away w/no fusing before it.That one's a stretch w/ the inspector anyway.The Code doesn't allow more than one conductor under a lug unless so designed(factory double lugs),so trying to cobble 3 panel feeders into one meter enclosure just isn't that easy.There are split bolt connectors for joining multiple feeders,but these are service entrance conductors and the rules for the sizing of the enclosure,bonding,grounding are more stringent,again because it is ahead of all overcurrent protection.

   The main disconnect rule for six swipes of the hand was to allow smaller services to not have to have a main breaker.You would be better off changing it out right than trying to bend a rule to save a buck.If you went to sell the house and somebody knew what they were looking it,they'd knock a lot more off the price of the house for goofy wiring than you'd save now.Just my two cents.

   Barry

7. 
   booch | Sep 11, 2002 05:21am | #12

   A couple of thoughts here.

   1. The wire from the meter socket to the boxes needs to be capable to carry the electrical load for all. This could or could not be local practice but wire is real cheap. you've got probably 30 bucks in new wire. Always use new wire. You can get splitter blocks to take the main feed and split it into 3 separate feeds. Hoffman makes a Nema 1 box with the splitter installed that could be used to top feed all three panels in a more professional layout.
   2. What is the AIC of the main breakers in your load centers? if you are less than 22,000 AIC the upgrade to a new box and main breaker would be worth the difference. That is Amperage Interrupting capacity. It still won't protect you from lightening strikes but it is built to last 99 percent of the problems out there.
   3. Get breakers with trip indication (Square D QO's) It will be easier to send your 12 year old to the basement to reset the 3rd floor bathroom breaker (while you are standing there with a towel wrapped around your but dripping wet.) PS from experience, the Sesame Street song "One of these things doesn't look like the others... is not a good clue for a kid. They turn off the main instead.)
   4. Get one meter socket. Drop the others, each meter socket costs you 4 to 8 bucks a month just as a "service connection fee" In a year you'll pay for the difference.
   5. Ignore 4 if you have 3 phase coming in between the three services. It is unlikely in a residential area, but it would be every woodworkers dream to have 480v in the basement for the really nifty machinery you can get from industry. It is unlikely though. If you do have the 3 phase 480, then you need the NQOD panel for 3 phase breakers. Probably parting with 1000 dollars in materials before you are thru. 
   6. Stay away from the dual breaker breakers. These are the ones that give you two breaker positions in each assigned slot. Yes they work, but they are a thermal nightmare. They build up too much heat if you run the individual circuits close to capacity on a warm summer day. The tripping is unreliable. You think you have a problem when they trip, but you just have a crappy breaker. There is a reason they don't down size all breakers to that size.
   7. Always use the appropriate breaker for the panel. Square D with Square D panels, Siemens with Siemens panels, etc. They are similar and pretty compatable but the NEC states clearly that you need to stick with your team. These aren't Edison based light bulbs. The standard is loose.
   8. Always keep your left hand in your pocket, and wear synthetic sole shoes while playing with electricity.
1. 
   Stray | Sep 11, 2002 04:30pm | #13

   Booch

   "PS from experience, the Sesame Street song "One of these things doesn't look like the others... is not a good clue for a kid. They turn off the main instead."

   LOL Thanks for the heads up! My son's only 2, but I could have pictured myself trying this when he gets older...

   ********************

   "What is the AIC of the main breakers in your load centers?"

   2 panels have 100amp main breakers, the 3rd panel has a 50amp main. Not sure quite how you calclate the AIC. Just additive? (ie = 250 AIC?) No...That'd be too easy...

   ********************

   "if you are less than 22,000 AIC the upgrade to a new box and main breaker would be worth the difference."

   Could you clarify this for me? What does it buy me? (ie having 1 main instead of 3)

   *********************

   "Get one meter socket. Drop the others, each meter socket costs you 4 to 8 bucks a month..."

   This is the ONLY reason I'm making ANY changes. My service fee is actually $12.50/month/meter. Doesn't take many months to pay back the cost of this work. Especially if I'm just feeding panels as they exist, but off 1 meter. This option is still sounding best to me.

1. 
   booch | Sep 11, 2002 05:52pm | #15

   Amp Interrupt Capacity is the ability of a protection device to withstand (without exploding or electrically failing) an electrical surge.

   Some of this may seem unimportant but follow thru for clarity sake.

   AIC is a rating provided by UL (Underwriters Laboratories). The Amps your panel will consume are minimal normally compared to this rating. Consider these facts. A lightening bolt provided 200,000 to 300,000 amps directly at point of contact. At this point of contact the current tries to find its way to ground. Shortest path should be thru your ground rod inside and outside your building. Whatever current gets past the ground rods goes thru your main breaker, to your building wiring, to your appliances, to ground. Each path is a route to ground. Shortest and least resistive is where most of the current goes.

   So Lightening, crossed wires in the field from trees falling, and blown transformers in the field are the most common causes of this high current source.

   The net result is your protection from this is the main breaker in your panel. As current builds in your appliances or building wiring the breaker will open. If the Current or Amperage is above 22,000 amps it my or may not open. Understand this is millisecond stuff, less than 1 cycle of 60 Hz (60 cycles per second).

   So you are worried, rest easy, it doesn't happen often, and if it does the insurance company pays for the act of God. However, the National Electric Code has incoming service ratings. Outside of Industrial users, homeowners ought to be using 22KAIC as code specified devices. Maybe you already have breakers this rating. It will be on the side of the breaker written in .05 typeset with UL or UR & CSA logo's stamped on the breaker. You need to remove the dress cover on the panel to see the side of the breaker.

   What does protect up to 200,000+? Fuses. Some types. If you live in the country on top of a hill where you keep on losing the equipment due to surges put in a safety switch with Low-peak fuses. You'll go thru fuses but at 10 to 20 bucks each you'll protect your equipment. Resettable breakers don't go that high. If they do they cost hundreds of dollars each. There are lots of reasons why fuses are the safest most of which involve a long discussion in physics.

   Fuses don't seem modern but they survive cause they protect best. Breakers are the most popular because you can reset them.

   If this is beyond the pale, have the electrician pop off the cover and inspect the main. He better know the local rating of the incoming service.  You, be certain you have ground rods inside below the panel, and outside at the meter socket.

8. 
   exlrrp | Sep 11, 2002 05:24pm | #14

   I would vote for putting ina new panel just for aesthetic reasons

   Whatever you do, paint the dam thing brown to match the house, it won't look so ugly--you can do this, don't hire the electrician for it an it is DEFINITELY ""to code"

   You don't need fireproof backing for this by the NEC

   James

1. 
   Stray | Sep 12, 2002 04:02pm | #16

   "-you can do this, don't hire the electrician for it"

   Well it's the FIRST time I've ever heard this phrase uttered here! I appreciate your honesty about it. I may still hire it out, depending on the price I get quoted for it.

   Seems straightfwd though the more I think about it....