FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

New project: I’ll need a lot of advice

Biff_Loman | Posted in General Discussion on November 19, 2007 10:02am

I’ve got something of a “training wheels” project on my hands. I’m looking at this as an opportunity to learn a lot of valuable contractor skills.

My father needs some living space constructed on the farm for seasonal migrant workers. The idea is to build an apartment in one corner of the barn, something along the lines of 800 ft^2. This has to be completed by mid-March. (!)

Dad owns another business completely unrelated to the farm, and he has a full-time job running it. I’m unemployed. It fits!

I would like to:

1. Provide Dad with an estimate. No idea where to start here.
2. Come up with a nice set of drawings – not because the project needs it, but because I need the practice.
3. Learn a few more carpentry skills, like building a set of stairs.

I see this as a job with a safety net. The workmanship will be basic. Dad’s going to be understanding/helpful as a “client.” Anyways, I’ll probably be posting lots of questions over the next three months.

Thanks in advance, guys.

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. FastEddie | Nov 19, 2007 10:42pm | #1

    What goes into the 88 sf?  Two bedrooms, bath, kitchen, living room?  What foundation and/or floor exists in the barn now?

    "Put your creed in your deed."   Emerson

    "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

    1. Biff_Loman | Nov 19, 2007 11:51pm | #2

      "What goes into the 88 sf? Two bedrooms, bath, kitchen, living room? What foundation and/or floor exists in the barn now?"Uh, 800 sf. Yeah, you got it.It will be two floors, as the barn is used to house farm equipment, so space on the ground floor is pretty useful. The barn is already a two storey structure, so it will need stairs added. So, details:- first floor is concrete slab, but the walls sit on a 4' poured foundation. The floor isn't great, but tractors have driven on it for 30 years, so I'm convinced it's not going anywhere. The plan is to cover it with ceramic.
      - second floor is 5/8" T&G, in bad shape. No through-and-through holes, though. Plan is to lay some 3/8" on top and lay vinyl flooring.While I'm at it:- sewage will be collected in a tank and pumped out. Grey-water will be collected separately from the toilet drain and sprayed onto the vineyards.
      - Old cabinets from Habitat from humanity will do for the kitchen
      - the stairs will just be rough 2x lumber with some sort of finish
      - walls will be framed from old 2x8s ripped in half (not looking forward to this), with batt insulation
      - There will be four or five windows and an exterior door added to the barn. It won't be necessary for the guys to walk through the barn to enter and exit.
      - Naturally, the apartment will have its own electrical panel
      - electric hot water and baseboard heaters
      - The barn is unheated, so I need a method of piping water 60' from the old furnace room (which is heated) to the living area. Thoughts?FWIW, I'll add that my Dad was an electrician in a former life, so that's one area that's greatly simplified.

      1. Piffin | Nov 20, 2007 12:07am | #3

        What are your local codes ad restrictions relative to housing humans in a barn? Must be some fire and sanitary stipulations.... 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. Biff_Loman | Nov 20, 2007 12:54am | #6

          I'm fairly positive this would be prohibited. But if the neighbours don't complain, you can get away with anything here.But common sense and human decency means that this should be a nice and safe place to live, not some dingy death-trap. Dad's kind of a perfectionist (and so is his son). I think the main problem will be to keep ourselves from going overboard. My first thought was to double-drywall everything for better fire separation from the rest of the barn. We'll see what we come up with.

          Edited 11/19/2007 4:57 pm ET by Biff_Loman

  2. User avater
    CapnMac | Nov 20, 2007 12:18am | #4

    I'd be inclined to draw it up as a shed, maybe even a couple modules.

    Getting the space up on skids (even token ones) gets the floor out of ground contact, which might make it warmer up there in the GWN.  Space under the floor lets you run mechanicals, like plumbing, without having to jackhammer the barn floor--which coulb a real winner with both dad and whoever is the on-site farm manager.

    Making it a modular sort of project also means being able to treat the sub-assemblies as just that, items that can be completely finished (which means not having to figure out how to "turn" insulation, VB, etc., "out" of the barn walls, and "into" el aparatmento.

    Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
  3. User avater
    intrepidcat | Nov 20, 2007 12:28am | #5

    Building some slave quarters for dear ole Dad.

    "What's an Arkansas flush?......It's a small revolver and any five cards."

    1. Biff_Loman | Nov 20, 2007 01:01am | #7

      These guys are used to living in trailers. In fact, the whole point of this is to provide incentive for some of the better workers to jump ship and work for Dad.That is not going to work if these are truly "slave quarters." ;-) I know the whole thing sounds cheezy. But the local workers really aren't working out, after years of trying different strategies for finding people.

      1. girlbuilder | Nov 20, 2007 01:13am | #9

        5/8" sheetrock on walls and ceilings, all joints taped is fire code here for any garage/barn area converted to living space. Also, good idea to frame the stairs for the 7/11 rule, makes for safer up and down.You say you have to run a 60' line for hot water service? Is that from one building then outside, to the living space? Seems you'd have to trench it, at least around here in the Northeast, we have to trench below frost, which is 48" here.

      2. Piffin | Nov 20, 2007 02:10am | #10

        I tried hard to tactfully work around that concept with the way I worded my Q.
        I'd hate to help anybody do anything inhumane or unsafe, but this sounds more or less aboveboard. Be prepared for a ration of #### though. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      3. User avater
        intrepidcat | Nov 29, 2007 03:07am | #48

        been in the same situation myself.....

        good luck!

         

         "What's an Arkansas flush?......It's a small revolver and any five cards."

    2. girlbuilder | Nov 20, 2007 01:10am | #8

      <em>Building some slave quarters for dear ole Dad.</em>I wasn't going to say it..but I thought it. :)

      1. User avater
        intrepidcat | Nov 29, 2007 03:08am | #49

        yep.....

         

         "What's an Arkansas flush?......It's a small revolver and any five cards."

  4. Stilletto | Nov 20, 2007 02:42am | #11

    Why are you responible for where these guys sleep? 

    Tell them to rent a apartment/house or buy one and pay taxes on it like the rest of us. 

    The 1800's called and they want their workers back.  LOL 

    Why not hire local people.  I am sure that you can find some if you are offering a decent wage.  That way you can get around building servants quarters. 

    Matt- Woods favorite carpenter. 

    1. Biff_Loman | Nov 20, 2007 04:21am | #14

      There's only work for roughly five months of the year. The problem isn't wages so much as availability. It's part of the culture around here to use migrant labour. Dad hasn't, for years, and it really hasn't worked that well.

      Edited 11/19/2007 8:21 pm ET by Biff_Loman

      1. Jim_Allen | Nov 20, 2007 05:34am | #15

        In many areas of MI, they use migrant workers too. Quite often, they house them in trailers and most of the trailers are olllllldddddd. I like your idea and hope you can put something up that is decent and dignified for your transient help.Last summer, I read an article about farmers in the thumb having to till a significant amount of crops back into the soil because they couldn't find enough help. The crop was asparagus and it has a very short timeframe for picking before the stalks get too thick and stringy. The transient help was making $15 per hour picking but they couldn't find enough local help to get it all. The farmers were losing about 40% of their crop! FKA Blue (eyeddevil)

    2. DougU | Nov 20, 2007 07:31am | #16

      Matt

      You obviously know little about farm workers. Some farms don't need hired help year round. Some/most seed corn farms use migrant workers for about 3 - 5 months and then the workers move on.

      The seed corn companies around her have housing that they provide for their workers, cant get the kids to do the work anymore like when I was growing up. So to better accommodate the workers(read families) they build row houses, sorta looks like the old motels that you used to see along the highways. There will be playground equipment for the kids, laundromat facilities for the workers...........

      A lot of these workers put in long hours so there isn't a need to have an apartment when all they will do is sleep, eat and go back to work.

      I see this kind of work done all the time and would never consider it slave labor.

       I am sure that you can find some if you are offering a decent wage.

      You ever detassal corn, rouge corn, pick and sort corn? Good luck finding those guys that your talking about, they aint there! The migrant workers are the only way this stuff gets done any more. When I was a kid we'd kill for this kind of work in the summer but that isn't the way it works today.

      this isnt the type of farm work that you see Boss Hog talking about on his thread.

      Doug

       

      Edited 11/19/2007 11:33 pm ET by DougU

      1. Stilletto | Nov 20, 2007 10:25am | #17

        My school actually had sign up sheets for detasseling corn every summer.  I never signed up,  had friends that did and they made great money doing it. 

        Whoever it was for never had any trouble finding help,  my friends were making $16 an hour at 14-15 yrs old.  Then $1 a year for each year you had done it on top of the $16.  The sign up sheets filled up fast.  A day or two tops and they were full of names. 

        Offer what people want (money) and you'd be suprised how many want to do the work.  No matter what it might be. 

         

         

        Matt- Woods favorite carpenter. 

        1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 20, 2007 02:14pm | #19

          Offer what people want (money) and you'd be suprised how many want to do the work.  No matter what it might be.

          I'll second that. I find myself shaking my head in disbelief every time I hear a politician talk about illegal immigrants doing work that Americans aren't willing to do anymore.  It's not about the work, it's about earning a living wage and supporting a small family.  Farm labor would become dignified and respectable if it paid a real living wage. 

          This might be a good time for those who haven't been close to this kind of work to read  John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath.  Things haven't changed much since that time, for migrant farm laborers.

          1. User avater
            CapnMac | Nov 20, 2007 08:46pm | #23

            it's about earning a living wage and supporting a small family

            Well, you get into definitions quickly that way.

            Down in "the valley" as the Rio Grande growning are gets called, there's a near-constant need for labor.  The labor is mostly in boxing & sorting.  Not brain surgery by any means, but precisely repetitive labor over and over again.  That sort of job is paying $12-15 the hour; yet the Valley has the highest unemployment rate in the State (circa 23-25%, or about 8 times the State average).

            The "Why?" of that is complicated.  Harvest-time pickers can earn more, for fewer hours worked.  Some of those pickers can then draw UI benefits until the next picking season (about 3 the year down south between the various citrus crops).  There's some issues about the "regular" work not being very glamorous, too.  Somebody has to pack that box of Ruby Red grapefruit.  The fruit has to be handled correctly, the count has to be right, and the sizes have to be right.  And, there's 8+ hours a day, every day for packing, sorting, pushing the dollies, etc., Rain, shine, hot or cold--it;s not easy work.

            The packing houses have tried higher wages, but their turnover stays about the same--for the same sorts of reasons you really need poor kids who don;t know any better for detassling corn.  About the only model that seems to work are employee-owned co-ops--but the big fruit companies have "issues" with that sort of thing, too (for better, worse, whatever).

            If you are farming citrus, you can be up against tough numbers.  Net profit off an orange can be a whopping 1.3¢ each.  How much profit do you need this season?  Say it's $20K--that's 20,000 oranges to be picked, and usually only over a week or so.   That's about 1600 a day for 11-12 days.  Oh yeah, if there's a glut of fruit, you might only make 7/8¢ each, too.  Or if the fruit is bruised, or frost damaged or any of a number of things.  All that before you get the fruit to the packing house, about 2,3 steps "away" from your store. 

            It's hard work, and more complicated than it appears (while also being middling simple).  Hard to make a magic wand to wave over any part of it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 20, 2007 09:26pm | #25

            Like others who've posted on this topic, I tried working in vegetable farming for a while when it was one of the few employment choices available to me.  I did both piece work (field stacking 100lb crates of onions, $.05/crate) and hourly wage work. 

            While involved in that kind of farming I got to know a few of the migrants who lived in seasonal housing at one of the farms.  While most of them had their own quiet dignity, they also understood that they were viewed as disposable by their employers.  As sensitive human beings this attitude from management took it's toll on their self esteem, leaving them generally depressed and rather hopeless. 

            As migrant farm labor has usually been preformed by new generations from the same social background, it makes perfect sense when the current generation takes the first employment opportunity which leads to an exit from farm labor.  

            The OP's father seems to have a good grasp of what's needed to recruit a new group of reliable workers.  Give them a more dignified place to live and show them the kind of respect that anyone who puts in a good day's work deserves.

        2. DougU | Nov 20, 2007 03:22pm | #20

          Offer what people want (money) and you'd be surprised how many want to do the work.  No matter what it might be. 

          Matt, I'm not going to get into the whole "illegal issue" of migrant workers because nothing good will come of that but if you've never been out there doing the field work then you may not know why it is that you cant find kids that want to do it - its definitely not about the money!

          I detasseled corn when I was young, detasseled corn when I was going to college, then again when the company  that I was working for went on strike but my bills didn't take that same leave so I went out and detasseled some more of that stinking corn! Great money for the short time your there, BUT, there is nothing easy about it! Back in the early 80's I could make $200 - $250 a day! That was from 5AM to about 9PM non stop. I'd contract instead of the hourly wage cause I knew how fast I could go.

          Its not always about the money. There is a seed corn company here in IA that will hire high school kids to work the summer, if they come back each year they will get some college paid for! I've heard of some even getting several years worth of college paid! But they can not get kids to come back and do the work.

          My wife hires these same kids today to work in her store and they will quit their jobs because there is a football pep rally that they can not miss for life or money! 

          If your that business owner who you going to get  to do the work? Its not always the money that stops the kids from coming back.

          My wife told me a story of a guy  that came in asking her if she would give his son a second chance to work(he'd quit for some foolish reason) she did and with in one month he had quit again because his friends were in town and he wanted to go hang with them!

          As a business man you have to think about how the work is going to get done, and if your in this market(short term farm work) you have to get someone to do it. It's not always about the money.

          I would never turn down a farmer when asked to bail hay, never worried about "when are we going to be done" so I could go to town, town will be there at midnight just as well as it will be there at 9PM! BUT, todays kids are not of the same mindset, they aren't going to do the work. I don't know of many farmers that bail hay the old way anymore, mostly because they  cant find the workers!

          Doug

          Edited 11/20/2007 7:25 am ET by DougU

          1. Stilletto | Nov 21, 2007 02:14am | #28

            I am going to reply one more time and then stop hijacking this thread because it has gone off on a tangent that I should have seen coming. 

            Repetitve work is done everyday in every factory worldwide so that is not going to be an arguement that holds any water with me. 

            Muddy, dirty work.  Foundations, slabs and flatwork is done all day everyday in the mud and rain.  As well as any other trade work in this field.  Still not holding water with me. 

            If you offered more money and benefits to workers you would actually have people looking to do it as a career.   People do it in factories,  same could be said for your line of field work.  If you don't have anything more than a few months work make sure they have unemploment so they can find another job without starving their family. 

            I have bailed hay/straw.  Not that hard,  alot of fun being outside with friends.  You get sore but after a few days that goes away.   Same with destoning fields. 

            If you can't find workers for what you are offering then maybe you aren't offering the right things.  But if you are going to transport illegals around with their ways of life they bring then go ahead.  But their way of life is much different than ours.  Life is cheap to them. 

            Do some research on the Mexican Mafia or MS-13 (a salvadorian gang) and see what these people bring with them.  We have enough issues here,  we don't need more.   

            They aren't all bad,  that much I know.  Think of ways to help your areas economy,  not someone who leaves with that money they make.  If I can't recruit the right help for something I look at what I am doing wrong,  not a temporary, dirt cheap solution to a recurring problem that will be back with next years crop. 

             

             

            Matt- Woods favorite carpenter. 

          2. DougU | Nov 21, 2007 04:30am | #29

            Matt

            I don't know if your paying attention around here but I've been doing carpentry work longer then you have! Been on BT as long or longer then you have as well. I'm not looking to hire any illegals, migrants or any other temporary field workers.

            I'm as aware of the illegal situation as you are, I just came back from 3 1/2 years in Texas and saw plenty, I'm damn sure I saw more then you do in Michigan.

            For the record I'm as against illegals being here as anybody, that includes Sancho - I want everybody that wants to be here to be here, just do it legally.

            I live in Iowa and I see the farm work that is NOT being done by high school kids or anybody else for that matter. THE MONEY IS NOT THE ISSUE! Did you read what I was able to make per day when I detasseled corn? I'm not the only guy that could make that kind of money.

            I'm also very aware of the problems that you have in Mich. because of the auto industry and the lose of jobs. Here in Iowa County, Iowa unemployment hovers down around 3% and as anybody knows when unemployment is that low its not because there are 3% of the working force that cant find work, its a number that reflects the transition to other jobs, people that don't want jobs and a few other variables. But there damn sure is no shortage of work here.

            When unemployment is that low people can get pretty damn choosey about what they want to do.

            You bring up the point of repetitive work, your right, it does go on in factories everyday, goes on building high end cabinetry some days as well but were not talking about 9 - 5 jobs that are careers for a lot of us, were talking about temporary work, no way for the farmers to offer benefits like retirement, paid holidays..........

            When the work is for 3 months stints how would you propose that one make a career out of it? How would you propose that the seed corn companies offer unemployment to temporary workers? If you take on a guy for a short time to do some roofing do you make sure he has an unemployment package when he leaves?

            Migratory work has been going on around this country for decades, not all of it is done by illegals!

            Doug

            Edited 11/20/2007 8:30 pm ET by DougU

          3. Biff_Loman | Nov 21, 2007 06:33am | #30

            Is the issue ILLEGAL workers? Because that is not at all the case here. In fact, there's a depressing amount of red tape involved. I'm glad that's not my problem.

            Edited 11/20/2007 10:34 pm ET by Biff_Loman

          4. DougU | Nov 21, 2007 02:49pm | #33

            Is the issue ILLEGAL workers?

            Not to me because I dont know your situation and I'm not presumming that because your building a bunk house that all of a sudden your houseing illegals, or worse yet slaves.

            I think that arose as someone/everyone thinking that you might be getting illegals to do this kind of work. I mentioned that migratory workers have been in use for decades in this country, I'll assume yours as well, and all of them are not illegals.

            I remember when I was in my teens which would have been in the 70's, that it was common for large farmers to have housing for employees. I'm sure  that the turn over rate was rather high but because of the long hours that are required at times it  was nice to have the workers on site as well as a throw back to the old days of hired hands living in a bunk house.

            Doug

          5. Stilletto | Nov 21, 2007 03:08pm | #37

            I learned this from my grandfather,  when he was starting to build something he was uncomfortable with.  He would build the entire structure out of popsickle sticks with square ends and a hot glue gun. 

            The subfloor would be 1/4" sheet of something,  then build it like he was standing there but on a tiny scale. 

            He would do this to his drawings,  like Jeff Buck posted about.  By the time you have done these two things the building will go up before you know it. 

             

             

             

            Matt- Woods favorite carpenter. 

          6. Stilletto | Nov 21, 2007 02:51pm | #34

            I wasn't saying you were the one hiring migrants/illegals.  I may have said "you" but thats not the way it was intended.  I have been around long enough to know that your views are close to mine.  You want to be here do the paper work and do it legally. 

             

            Matt- Woods favorite carpenter. 

          7. DougU | Nov 21, 2007 03:24pm | #39

            I may have said "you" but thats not the way it was intended.

            Sorta wondered that after I hit POST but then figured what the hell, your in the trades, you have thick skin, it probably wont bother you as much as some. I'm not really as known for my tact as you've heard! 

            Doug

            Edited 11/21/2007 7:28 am ET by DougU

        3. User avater
          Island Angus | Nov 20, 2007 04:29pm | #21

          Offer what people want (money) and you'd be suprised how many want to do the work.  No matter what it might be. 

          It just isn't that simple.

          First of all, there just aren't locals willing to put in the long days that are required slugging away harvesting vegetables day in day out. It is hard, hot (or cold depending on time of year) dirty, and wet work. Not too many people are keen on tossing 20 lb cabbages, in ankle deep mud with your hands freezing cold for hours on end. Also the work is seasonal, with most of the crew laid off for significant portions of the year. The good ones are going to find full time work (maybe a nice carpenty job :), leaving the farmer the not so ambitious ones.

          Students are great, they tend to be good workers and show up (half the battle  most days). But they are only available a few months of the year. A lot of veggie harvest doesn't get well under way until late August, so you need a lot more than students.

          One cabbage grower around here has been at 1/2 staff for 2 months. Pays well, free coffee and lunch brought in, keeps beer in the lunch room fridge ("What ever it takes to keep them going"). No one even applies.  Another grower keeps 30% extra on staff to deal with the high rate of absenteism, and even that isn't enough to have a good crew on Saturdays.

          Second, farmers are price takers, working in a North American and in many cases a world market. They cannot be 1/2 cent more expensive than what the buyers are offering for their produce. The buyers don't care where the product is coming from or who is growing it, just the price and if they can buy it .1 cent cheaper from some guy using migrant labour they will.

          Often it is not even a cost issue. Here in Canada if you want migrant labour you have to pay a gov. set min. wage, put them up in approved housing, pay for their transport to and from Mexico/Jamaica/Bahamas and provide local transport here. Often making migrant labour more expesive than local. It is a reliability thing. They want to work long hours, weekends. More hours the better. They show up every day.

          The growers don't want to send their money to Mexico, but they have to get their crops harvested. And years of struggling to get their crops in short handed, and keep the farm afloat, push them to find solutions.

          Remember we are talking about labourers here. Not as much problem to get equipment operators.

          Angus

          Edited 11/20/2007 9:19 am ET by Island Angus

          1. Biff_Loman | Nov 20, 2007 05:56pm | #22

            I'll add that this is vineyard work. Unlike crops that are re-planted every year, the long-term viability of the vines depends on conscientious pruning, and general good treatment of the plants.That being said, the quality of the work from the locals has been bad. They're also unreliable, and - in my experience - slower than molasses. Unless they're on piecework, in which case they are inexcusably sloppy.

          2. shtrum | Nov 20, 2007 09:06pm | #24

            "Here in Canada if you want migrant labour you have to pay a gov. set min. wage, put them up in approved housing, pay for their transport to and from Mexico/Jamaica/Bahamas and provide local transport here."

            after all the dialogue that's gone on about this in other threads, that's probably the most reasonable solution i've heard on the subject

             

          3. User avater
            Island Angus | Nov 20, 2007 10:14pm | #26

            The two borders to get across (Mexico/US then US/Canada), makes it so that we don't really have much of an illegal immigrant population like you have in the States.

            Angus

      2. charlie4444 | Nov 20, 2007 12:17pm | #18

        I'm in Central California-it's much the same way.  We grow a lot of just about everything here and most of the seasonal harvesting is done by migrants with the same kind of cheap row housing setup you're talking about.  This way of doing it is entrenched...which is why this is the birthplace of the Cesar Chavez farmworker labor movement back in the 60's.

        Don't know if the local farmers would hire young kids....they never have needed to before and don't go looking for them.  With the kids today I'm not sure any of them would be willing to do that kind of labor even if it was offered.  Some of them work in the summer at the local canneries and packing sheds (along with even more migrant workers), but that's about it.  In fact, I think if we succeeded in tightening up migrant traffic across the Calif-Mexico border at least half of our local farmers would be seriously hurting for labor at harvest time.charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"

  5. User avater
    JeffBuck | Nov 20, 2007 03:13am | #12

    what I do starting from the basics ...

    build it on paper first.

     

    each and every step ... draw it out by hand.

    That way ... you stand a better chance of remembering everything.

     

    I'd even think about getting some graph paper ... pick a scale ... and draw the outline ... then ... photocopy that.

     

    That way ... U can draw the footer / foundation ... and get those measurements.

    remember to make elevations too ... and add up your materials

     

    then ... on another sheet ... draw the plates. Not just one line ... draw them.

    cuts ... overlaps ... scale down to real stock lenghts.  Now U have your plate material list ...

     

    do the same for exterior and partition walls ... I'd even suggest elevations for those too ... scale the layout ... commons, kings, cripples , corners ... draw them all in there ... now "walk" around the drawing and count them up.

    elevations for door / window layouts.

     

    Build it all on paper first ... walk yourself thru it.

     

    for budgeting ... pick up a basic estimating book from HD or Lowes ... I forget the brand ... but I have a set that's one for interior projects and one for exterior. As far as book estimating goes ... they're not too bad ... the price is right. Use their times as a ballpark then multiply by your hoped for hourly wage.

    don't forget to add extra for materials ... and a cushion for time.

    for the fun of it add in profit and overhead and see how much you'd have to ask a real customer for!

     

    if it's a permitted area try to work as close with the building inspector as possible ... get to him early ... ask for suggestions. I've found the BI likes to be asked first as opposed to having people try to sneak stuff by. Not a hundred Q's ... but let him know he's in the loop from tge get go. Remember ... yer taxes pay his salary.

     

    Jeff

     

     

        Buck Construction

     Artistry In Carpentry

         Pittsburgh Pa

  6. RalphWicklund | Nov 20, 2007 03:59am | #13

     You need a housing plan before you think about starting construction.

    First thing that comes to mind is: How many people will be housed at any one time? Then, will they be all males or will there be wives, girlfriends or an occasional female showing up to work? Do you plan a dormitory style arrangement if all males or one to a cell <G>, or double occupancy or?

    Can we assume a communal bathroom with showers, sinks and multiple private commodes? Separate facilities for women?

    Will these workers know and trust each other? Do you need secure closets for each occupant?

    Dividing the available space – living quarters and facilities upstairs and kitchen, eating and common area downstairs? Your stairway will take up some room. You have to plan around that. Do you need emergency egress from the second floor such as a fire escape? Would seem to be a requirement and determine the layout of the living quarters and maybe a need for an exit path accessible from each room on the floor. That and the stair well take up space that can’t be used for other purposes.

    How about a covered porch? People need breathing room and a porch is an ideal way to alleviate a closed in feeling with a number of people. Also, you might not want them to be smoking indoors.

    Now, how much space will you want to allocate for each worker? My college dorm room was approximately 10’ wide and 15’long with 2 beds, 2 study tables, 2 closets and bookshelves along the walls above the long side of the bed. The showers and commodes were across the hall and were shared by 4 rooms (8 guys). You can double the occupancy with bunk beds.

  7. bobguindon | Nov 21, 2007 12:27am | #27

    My father needs some living space constructed on the farm for seasonal migrant workers. The idea is to build an apartment in one corner of the barn, something along the lines of 800 ft^2. This has to be completed by mid-March.

    At first glance, why not a simple 'camp' building set apart from the barn?  I'm assuming that it would be set on a gravel pad in your climate.  A separate building would be far better for light and air, and it doesn't sound like you would be heating it in the coldest months, where the barn wouldn't provide much protection anyway.  Finally, you mention that barn space is valuable for storage of farm equipment, which I assume means motorized equipment, with storage of gasoline and/or diesel fuel. 

    There are many plans available for seasonal camps.  The first resourse (free plans) that comes to mind is here:  http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/our_offices/departments/Biological_Ag_Engineering/Features/Building_Plans/recreation/housing/

    Also, if you have an active Amish community, you may find that they offer pre-assembled camp buildings for a very reasonable price.

    Bob 



    Edited 11/20/2007 4:32 pm ET by bobguindon

  8. BradG | Nov 21, 2007 10:09am | #31

    Gang,

    I'm a noob to this forum and a non-professional homebuilder (read: I don't rely on my remodel work for my primary income) so feel free to shout me down or ignore my post.

    That being said, how about we MYOFB re: migrant labor and answer the OP's HOMEBUILDING questions. There are lots of other forums for expressing our views on all sorts of things, but we come here to share and learn about HOMEBUILDING. I've learned more from you guys in the past few months than i did on my first few years at this, and I appreciate the wealth of knowledge you are all generous enough to share. Let's keep it that way, K?

    my .02 ....

    1. Piffin | Nov 21, 2007 01:44pm | #32

      " how about we MYOFB re: migrant labor and answer the OP's HOMEBUILDING questions. "Good refocus, but he didn't ASK any questions yet, that I noticed. He just openned a general disccussion by announcing that he would soon have a lot of questions. Maybe I missed something.... 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. DougU | Nov 21, 2007 02:57pm | #35

        And besides, going off on tangents is part of the BT that we all know and love!

        Doug

        1. Piffin | Nov 21, 2007 03:03pm | #36

          Tangents, chords, ellipses...We'll go off on anything 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        2. User avater
          intrepidcat | Nov 29, 2007 03:25am | #50

          right on bro....."What's an Arkansas flush?......It's a small revolver and any five cards."

    2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 21, 2007 04:54pm | #41

      how about we MYOFB

      Haven't you noticed that BT is like lunch on the job site?  Topics change like the wind. 

      Hey maybe instead of Break Time we should call this place Break Wind. ;-)

      "Break Wind, a collection of malodorous methane producers, flaming each other with frivolous flatulence."

      1. RalphWicklund | Nov 21, 2007 05:17pm | #42

        BradG

        Send E-Mail

        Add To Friends

        Ignore Posts

          

        Member Since: 7/21/2003

        Posts: 1

        Last Visit: Nov-19

           View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image Main 

        View Image

        View Image Favorites 

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        View Image

        This user has not entered any profile information.

        1. DonCanDo | Nov 21, 2007 06:45pm | #43

          With 1 post in over 4 years, he certainly can't be accused of being a hypocrite :-)

          1. BradG | Nov 21, 2007 07:08pm | #44

            And "Brad" is even my real name, too!

            Point taken, and I'll fill out my profile information as well - I appreciate the open community and discussion.

            Frankly, I wanted to hear more ideas on how to turn a barn into living space and the whole thread is getting kind of predictable, having been hashed out at length everywhere else.

          2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 21, 2007 08:27pm | #45

            I wanted to hear more ideas on how to turn a barn into living space...  

            It's pretty simple to take a corner section of a big open building and turn it into living space so the questions need to get more specific before the ideas can flow. 

            OK. Here's a suggestion to get the ball rolling.  Make the space an elbow shape which follows the exterior walls so that each room will have natural light and ventilation. 

          3. DanH | Nov 21, 2007 09:03pm | #46

            But I gather that one of the objectives is reasonably minimum budget, and the most efficient shape is a cube (assuming you don't do curves).But yeah, probably should hash over some other ideas.-- Need to take lighting/ventillation into account. You want windows as far apart as possible on the two walls, to optimize cross ventillation and natural light.-- Think a bit about life safety issues. In a fire could people get out? I'm guessing there's no code enforcement where you are, but you don't want it on your conscience if something happens. Should be at least one egress window on each floor, and maybe both inside and outside stairs.-- Keeping things clean and vermin free. Think about how to seal the area against mice/rats in the rest of the building; plan to add metal flashing in areas where rodents will try to gnaw through.-- I assume there'll be indoor plumbing? Think about the grade you need for drainage. It may work out better, eg, to put the toilet at the south end vs the north end in terms of achieving the needed slope.-- Plan, plan, plan.

            If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

          4. Biff_Loman | Nov 21, 2007 10:40pm | #47

            You are right on top of this, man.The rodents are one thing that has me wondering. They'll chew through most anything.

  9. DanH | Nov 21, 2007 03:11pm | #38

    The project does indeed need the drawings. You need accurate drawings for a lot of things (especially estimates), so don't slight that aspect.

    One important thing is to makee a copy of the floor plan and do an electrical plan, laying out where the outlets will be. A lot easier to meet the 6-foot/12-foot rule if you plan it out, and you save wire and time if you have the circuits planned in advance.

    Start making yourself a list of cost estimation figures -- find out how much each outlet box/cover/plate is going to cost, eg. (Or, if you'll hire the wiring, ask local sparkies for their per-outlet estimates.)

    For this type of structure I've figured I'd use 3/8" OSB and then 3/8" drywall for the walls. A lot harder to kick holes in them that way.

    If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
  10. Danno | Nov 21, 2007 03:42pm | #40

    Someone mentioned drawing everything on paper (as you also said), but I would add that you might want to mock it up in the actual barn--use at least chalk lines on the floor and maybe cardboard or something to get an idea of how it will really be.

    Secondly, I like the idea of using the gray water, but be aware that gray water can also have fecal coliform bacteria in it and I would not spray it on plants, I would use a drip irrigation system to only get it on the roots. You don't want to eat or sell for eating crops that have had any contact with fecal matter, no matter how dilute (in my opinion). Drip irrigation is more efficient anyway--puts the water directly where it's needed and little evaporated before tha plant can use it.

    Despite the guff you got and may continue to get, I think what your doing is admirable--there are lots of people who wouldn't provide anything nice for migrant workers. My dad still tells me about an ad he saw in the 50's in a Zeeland, Michigan paper for an old school bus body. Said something about it making excellent housing for pigs or chickens or migrant workers! Sweet.

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Sign up Log in

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

  • Business
  • Code Questions
  • Construction Techniques
  • Energy, Heating & Insulation
  • General Discussion
  • Help/Work Wanted
  • Photo Gallery
  • Reader Classified
  • Tools for Home Building

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
View More Create Post

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

Shoulder Your Buckets

Add a strap for easy carrying and pouring when working with 5-gal. buckets.

Featured Video

How to Install Cable Rail Around Wood-Post Corners

Use these tips to keep cables tight and straight for a professional-looking deck-railing job.

Related Stories

  • Ramon Martinez, Site Supervisor
  • What Size Nails?
  • Stop Ice Dams When Reroofing
  • Outdoor Lighting

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding All Access
Fine Homebuilding Podcast
Tool Tech
Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

  • Issue 332 - July 2025
    • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
    • Fight House Fires Through Design
    • Making the Move to Multifamily
  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work
  • Issue 328 - Dec/Jan 2024
    • How a Pro Replaces Columns
    • Passive House 3.0
    • Tool Test: Compact Line Lasers

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

  • Green Building Advisor

    Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

  • Old House Journal

    Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters

Follow

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X

Membership & Magazine

  • Online Archive
  • Start Free Trial
  • Magazine Subscription
  • Magazine Renewal
  • Gift a Subscription
  • Customer Support
  • Privacy Preferences
  • About
  • Contact
  • Advertise
  • Careers
  • Terms of Use
  • Site Map
  • Do not sell or share my information
  • Privacy Policy
  • Accessibility
  • California Privacy Rights

© 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

  • Home Group
  • Antique Trader
  • Arts & Crafts Homes
  • Bank Note Reporter
  • Cabin Life
  • Cuisine at Home
  • Fine Gardening
  • Fine Woodworking
  • Green Building Advisor
  • Garden Gate
  • Horticulture
  • Keep Craft Alive
  • Log Home Living
  • Military Trader/Vehicles
  • Numismatic News
  • Numismaster
  • Old Cars Weekly
  • Old House Journal
  • Period Homes
  • Popular Woodworking
  • Script
  • ShopNotes
  • Sports Collectors Digest
  • Threads
  • Timber Home Living
  • Traditional Building
  • Woodsmith
  • World Coin News
  • Writer's Digest
Active Interest Media logo
X
X
This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

Main Menu

  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Video
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Popular Topics

  • Kitchens
  • Business
  • Bedrooms
  • Roofs
  • Architecture and Design
  • Green Building
  • Decks
  • Framing
  • Safety
  • Remodeling
  • Bathrooms
  • Windows
  • Tilework
  • Ceilings
  • HVAC

Magazine

  • Current Issue
  • Past Issues
  • Magazine Index
  • Subscribe
  • Online Archive
  • Author Guidelines

All Access

  • Member Home
  • Start Free Trial
  • Gift Membership

Online Learning

  • Courses
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Podcast

More

  • FHB Ambassadors
  • FHB House
  • Customer Support

Account

  • Log In
  • Join

Newsletter

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Follow

  • X
  • YouTube
  • instagram
  • facebook
  • pinterest
  • Tiktok

Join All Access

Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

Start Your Free Trial

Subscribe

FHB Magazine

Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

Subscribe

Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

Already a member? Log in

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

Start your FREE trial

Already a member? Log in

Privacy Policy Update

We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

Cookies

Analytics

These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

Advertising/Social Media

These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

Essential

These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

Delete My Data

Delete all cookies and associated data