Bought a small house in town (Toledo area) and am doing an update, remodel, etc.
Current service entrance is 60 amp with fuses and a gaggle of add ons, subpanels.
House is 1200 sq ft, crawl, elec stove, elec dryer, 3 br, attached 1 car garage. Will be adding new furnace with ac. Lot size is modest and it is unlikely there would be any addition in the future. I’ll be doing the install myself.
I think 125 amp is enough, but I’m getting a few suggestions to go to 150 or even 200. I can’t see any reason why even thought the additional cost is minimal.
Comments, suggestions, appreciated.
Thanx
Replies
What about the water heater? If you were to go to a tankless electric then you'd be glad to have some extra juice.
Also, with energy costs topsy-turvy you might like to have a bit of spare capacity to run electric space heaters (though one presumes you wouldn't run heaters at the same time as the AC).
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
Every new home I've seen has 200 amp service minimum. Can't imagine why you want less--savings are de minimus.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
i wouldn't even consider putting in less than 200 amps.
the cost differential is likely minimal now, and if yoou neeed more later tan it is significan't.
there are alwys things that come up.
think if you remod the kitchen and bath will mean, 2 20 amp ckts for countertops, 20 amp (?) for micr wave, lighting , electric stove, diahwasher etc. even thogh thye don't pull, takes up ckt breakers
then there are the baths, etc.
it can go fast.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
I'm not an electrician but won't you want the following on dedicated circuits (12 gauge and 20 amp) Dishwasher, Refrigerator, Washing Machine, Microwave, Kitchen outlets, Furnace, Garage outlets, dedicated circuit for computer/office equpment, etc.
Hi Lenny,
will the service from the utlity come to the house overhead or underground ? Some Cos. will only provide larger services when they have to dig,
But I don't see a need for a 200A service.
when you state the additional costs are "minimal", what are you comparing?
Yeah, I think 200A is overkill. 150 should be plenty for that house, especially as small as it is. The stated loads add to about 100A, and (aside from the WH) it's unlikely you could invent more than another 20-30A of loads unless you install an electric brick kiln or some such.One thing to consider, though, is the number of breaker slots you need. The larger the panel, the more slots it tends to have. Sometimes you may want to install, say, a 200A panel and then replace the main with a 150, to match the service. (Though in theory if you have a 150A disconnect breaker outside you don't need to downgrade the panel main.)If there is a significant difference in the utility charge for the drop based on size (vs the hardware cost), you can oversize the panel and the feed to the panel from the outside disconnect, giving you the freedom to upgrade later if necessary, without having to tear into walls.
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thats my feeling Dan, 150 is more than adequate for Lennys house, there might also be a space problem for a big 200-225A panel ,....I just dunno."
Yeah, the thing to do is to lay out the cost and +/- advantages of each option and make a decision. I think enough considerations have been aired here to give the OP the ammunition to do this. Let me see if I can recap:-- Cost of drop
-- Cost of equipment
-- Physical size of panel (relative to space limitations)
-- Number of panel slots (keeping in mind that it's always good to have 6-10 slots left over)
-- Possibility of something like a tankless heater, large hot tub, etc in the future that would draw more current
-- Resale value (frankly, I doubt that this is an issue unless the panel is clearly undersized)
-- Observation that 125A is easily adequate for current planned loads, but somewhat low on future flexibility
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yep, that's about it,
....I'll be in the truck, go get the check,........it's Millertime !!!"
Go big or go home.
200 amp sounds good in the real estate listings. Gives the impression of upgraded and well maintained. Small home might be great for empty nester with home workshop; seniors with future need for electric lifts and other devices.
From the information provided, I don't think a 200 amp service is necessary. However, as someone else mentioned, having a 200 amp service would probably be a plus if you intend on reselling the place and the additional costs are minimal. I think a lot of buyers today expect it.
I vote for 150A.
Another thing to think about is I believe there are different sized boxes that are still 150A. So, you might get one 150A panel that is a 24 space, and another that is a 28 space. To further complicate matters, you may find that 150A is a little harder to find than 125A or 200A, or at least if you are shopping at home center type stores.
At 3100 sf, I went with 400 amps. Sub panels upstairs and down.
-- J.S.
Simply put I don't, unless the HO insists and takes on the responsibility any shortcoming in writing, install anything less than 200A on anything bigger than a doll house. Anything smaller isn't worth it long term.
A physically larger panel isn't an issue. This is construction and a 200A panel isn't much larger than a 150A one. I have never seen a situation where I couldn't install a 200A panel. Even if it means the service is moved a bit. No problem. After the first couple of dozen it gets to be old hat.
Amperage wise if you need the capacity you have it. If not you still save on voltage drop and increased reliability. A 150A panel drawing 100A will always run hotter than a 200A panel drawing 100A. Heat is the enemy of electrical components and long-term economy.
Most anyone who demands anything less than 200A, unless it is out of ignorance or a rare situation indeed, is seen as a skin flint we don't want to work with. Better to let the vultures and bottom feeders take those jobs. Fighting over the right to suck the marrow out of bones is a messy way to make money. There are a lot of ways to save money in renovations and construction but pulling up shy on the size of the service isn't one of them. Do it once. Do it right.
That way when the situation changes, like when someone wants to go all electric because natural gas prices are killing them, you can clearly say 'no problem we have plenty head room and breaker spaces to spare'. Better to have more than you need, within reason of course, than need something you don't have.
I think you've never had to upgrade a service. Otherwise, you wouldn't be considering anything less than 200A.
Changing a service requires a complicated coordination between the utility (maybe multiple visits), the inspector, and the electrician. It's alot more complicated than just adding in some branch circuits (which in many/most localities is a DIY option).
I don't see how you save much on something smaller. 200A meter bases and panels are high-volume commodities. Like most things, there are only minor increases in price as you go bigger, until you hit the "sweet spot", and then prices rise dramatically as you get into niche market products.
It's difficult to find meter bases less than 200A. You can get panels that are smaller, but you save little of any. The amount you save on smaller service conductors is minimal.
P.S. I was in a house recently with a 600A service(!). A 600A meter base feeding three 200A panels. It was 7000 sq. ft. and located in AZ. I don't think I could even afford the monthly electrical bill, let alone the house.
----- I think you've never had to upgrade a service. Otherwise, you wouldn't be considering anything less than 200A. -----Right.I don't know about where OP is, but here PG&E charges the HO for the service upgrade as well. So when I had to upgrade from 60A in the new (to me) house I had just bought, I went straight to 200A for my 1351 sf house. Even though I have all gas appliances (I did have a subpanel installed in the garage at the same time for a future electric kiln). PG&E had upgraded the minimum required service conduit size even for 125A, so I needed to dig a new trench to the street (we have all underground service here) regardless -- so any doubts raised by my electrician about whether or not I really "need" 200A were trumped by the fact that I had to dig a trench and shell out $4G to PG&E, in addition to the fees charged by the electrician, plus waiting six months before PG&E could get around to scheduling the pulling of the wires. Ain't no way I want to go through the PG&E headache, and COST, again.What possible reason is there *not* to go to 200A, especially if the cost difference is "minimal"?Rebeccah
>> the fact that I had to dig a trench and shell out $4G to PG&E, in addition to the fees charged by the electrician, plus waiting six months before PG&E could get around to scheduling the pulling of the wires. <<
WOW!
I was reciently POed when our local electric co - Progress Energy - charged me like $485 (I thiink it was) and took a month to do the install. They did all the diging and for that price ran it down the pole, hand dug through the newly sodded neighbor's yard (the expensive part), and up to the meter base - about 120' all toghther. I guess I should feel lucky. BTW - they don't use condult here unless it's going under pavement or a driveway.
Maybe you had a really long run?
On another house the gas company charged me $76 to run the pipe ~100' down the road (through the pavement) and then maybe 50' up to the house meter. On other houses where the pipe is already out front, connection is free! You can tell they want your business.
Today though the power company got off my $h!t list: I had forgotten to call until last week for underground install up to the meter base for 2 houses I'm doing - both in the same neighborhood. Lady told me politely - tough - you are gonna have to wait 3 weeks till the 25th. This morning I roll up and think, hey, what are these backhoe tracks doing in the driveway.... And a pathway has been dug up and then (sloppily) regraded going around the side of the house... Hey cool! I got power 2 weeks early - both houses!!! I just might make those closing dates after all.... Nothing like starting off a rainy Monday on a good note... Havn't got the bill yet but I'm not expencting any extra charges. It's all underground and no pavement was in the way - I'm guessing $125 per house. The runs were maybe 100' per house.
No, Matt, my run was only about 20-25' from the sidewalk to a corner of the house. It's all underground -- no poles.I live in the SF Bay Area, which is to say California, whose monoploy gas and electric company PG&E went bankrupt a couple of years ago.I had to pay $400 just to get them to agree to do the "engineering" and put the project on their waiting list. According to my electrician, since the bankruptcy, they laid off a bunch of people, and they charge for every minute that anyone spends doing any mundane task that could conceivably be related to the project. I was responsible for (and had the electrician do) the digging of the trench, laying of the conduit, and threading of the pull wires (or whatever they use), and literally all PG&E did was connect up the new conductor inside their box and pull it through from the house end. Well, and a couple of inspections while work was in progress and of course all the time that was spent doing the paperwork.I love the way on the itemized statement of the charges they included their income tax on the profit they make on the job. That's chargeable to me.
WOW - thanks for sharing that... I used to hate our power company... They are looking pretty good from here right now...
Starting to change my mind, will probably go with a 150 amp. Still seems like a lot for a 1200 sq footer, no basement.
200?? seems like gross overkill, like a 300hp all wheel drive to take Buffy to piano lessons.
>> like a 300hp all wheel drive to take Buffy to piano lessons. << What corner of the planet do you live on? Have you not seen the giant SUVs people are driving these days? I'm thinking that if this gas price hike thing keeps up all us construction type guys will be able to buy a really nice work truck for $7K. Heck, I'll take a torch and cut out those back seats and cut the roof off of one too! Hey - maybe I can find one with spinners on it... ;-) Wonder how many cubes of brick I can put on a Ford Excursion?
Seriously, you may want to cost out the different options. Like I said, if you are doing the work yourself, you may find that you can get a 200A panel for literally a few more $ than a 150 or even a 125. I guess then you have to figure in the feeder size too, and I don't know what else...
I actually have a 400A service on our all elect home with hot tub and pool.
Matt, I like the idea of the $7K SUV,
golly those things might actually get used for the purpose they were originally built ,
don't forget to rip out the carpeting, hahahah"
...electric heat in a 1200 sf. house is going to need an additional 140A of service? thats almost 30W / ft. ...... isn't that a little high? Don't get me wrong 4Lorn, I like big services as well as the next guy,
unless Lenny is just fixing it to sell it, I don't see the need for a new service that is 3X larger what he has, "
Re: "I don't see the need for a new service that is 3X larger what he has,"You are comparing the 200A service to a service that is, even by his jaundiced eye, inadequate. So how much larger a 200A service may be over top of what he can, legally and in good conscience, get away with remains to be seen. I can say that 200A is not all that large if the HO goes for an all electric house and this option may be more important as the instabilities within the various energy sectors increases. Keeping options open is a good thing. Spending a small amount now could save a lot later. Having options, even when not taken, is worth something in itself. Most people hate feeling trapped. The difference in cost between a 100A and 200A service upgrade is negligible. Any replacement service will include a meter can. A can that most POCOs demand be a standard 200A or larger so no savings there. And this is repeated on some level at each difference between a 100A and 200A service upgrade. A lot of contractors, including a couple I work for, price anything other than a 200A service, or some multiple of it, a little higher and 200A services a bit lower simply because it means the number of parts, tools and conductors can be reduced by using a standard ampacity, 200A. Tell me I'm installing a 200A service and pretty much the parts are on hand because it is so common a service size.Send me out to install a 125A service and I will be digging around, or visiting the supply house, for parts and fittings and if I end up with spares they will likely ride on the truck or sit in a storage shed for a long time. Most electrical contractors have buttloads of oddball parts and fittings that were salvaged or excess from oddball service sizes. Even the big box has a pricing scale which keeps the 200A service at, or just slightly higher than, a 150A panel. Standardization in the field means they have a high turnover in 200A units which keeps the price low. Last time I priced a 125A panel it was more expensive than the 200A unit.
In this area a 200 amp loadcenter and meter base are actually cheaper then the others. I would inquire with the utility engineer if there are increased utility fees or line extension fees otherwise I would go with 200 amps.
In the Toldeo market you don't need the 200A for resale value, and 150 should be more than ample for the size and systems you mentioned.
Most (all?)of the houses here with the old 60 amp services also have ungrounded branch circuits and you'll want some $$ left over for upgading the interior wiring.
Best remodeling guy in Toledo is our own Calvin Stewart.
Drop me an email if you want names of other trades. (Be especially wary of HVAC -the are some real putz's out there.)
Hey,
What about the workshop in the garage!!! Table saw, jointer, planer, drill press, chop saw, dust collector....... Sorry, must be the woodworker in me. Couldn't resist.
And don't forget the hot tub! That's at least 50A. Must be the Californian in me - LOL!