Is there anyone that has experence in new windows. I have a new house 4 yrs old with peechtree windows. My problem is every time it gets cold say around zero the bottom of my windows get ice on them on the glass.The house has hot water baseboard heat. Humidity level is 40 percent. I understand new houses have to dry out but where does the ice come from? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Replies
It's condensation. If you want it to go away reduce the humidity. If you can't ,get used to it.
The ice is most likely a result that your interior humidity level is higher than the r-value of your particular windows can support at that outdoor temperature. Condensation and freezing of the condensation result.
I'd venture to say that if you have ice at your current outdoor temp, you had condensation prior to reaching that temperature.
Might be time to run a dehumidifier to lower the indoor humidity and do what you can to prevent it from reaching that level again.
Make certain you have bathroom and kitchen exhaust fans in place and that you use them to help prevent the humidity level from reaching the level where it is now..............or change out the windows for something with a higher r-value.
Other places to look for sources of humidity are improperly exhausted gas appliances (such as a boiler) which is a very dangerous situation in terms of CO poisoning of the inhabitants......and improperly exhausted clothes dryer.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/13/2004 9:40:51 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 1/13/2004 9:43:37 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 1/13/2004 11:22:57 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
20% is good for houses
40% is good for people.
Madame Theo sees a compromise indicated in your star chart.
Excellence is its own reward!
It is twenty below at our house this morning. Most of our windows have a thin layer of frost 1 inch up from the bottom. It will be gone by 10 am. Our bedroom window were completely covered this morning but now with the door opened this frost is sublimating. They will be clear by noon. Above zero there is no problem on the main windows, but in the closed bedroom there is a small amount of frost.
Do not run a dehumidifier. It is dry enough already in the winter.
>> It will be gone by 10 am.
This is a good point. As long as it's not running down the glass and pooling on the window sill, condensation itself is not a problem.
Granted. Condensation itself isn't a problem, but I guess I'd consider it to be a problem before the water was pooling on the windowsill. If it's pooling on and saturating the bottom window sash rail, it's time to take action/make adjustments. Then again if the windows in question are vinyl and not wood, no problem there either.
Having been called to houses dozens of times over the years by HOs wondering whether there was something wrong because they had a bit of ice on the windows and then arriving to find enough ice pooled and frozen on each window to make a snow cone, I envisioned something similar here.
And having been asked on dozens of occasions to "make the black disappear" on the windows that have been substantially damaged and stained by these types of conditions, and then having to inform the people that it's too late to "make it disappear" without resorting to paint or replacement, my inclination isn't to counsel someone on the finer points of how much condensation down there is acceptable. Speaking from experience, I can say that very few HOs will monitor their window condensation as required. Just a tad too much for just a tad too long and someone in the future will be telling them also that the remedy now is to paint the windows because you let the indoor relative humidity rise too high during the heating season and now the appearance of your wood is beyond restoration…………and that's if the condition hasn't been left to occur for so long that the window is actually rotted.
I guess if this condition were present in my own house, I wouldn't hesitate to run a dehumidifier in the winter to lower the relative humidity if it seemed appropriate or was apparently necessary. Dehumidifiers come with a control that allows one to set the desired relative humidity level and consequently it will only run if the relative humidity exceeds that setting. Having it plugged in and ready to come into play should the RH rise above what your windows can sustain doesn't cost a thing or hurt a thing and it will be more diligent about monitoring and controlling the RH than the HO will.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/14/2004 10:47:20 AM ET by GOLDHILLER
The black stains are mold/mildew. And for people with allergies, it becomes a problem. Usually people with allergies (i.e., my DW) requires a RH of about 35%. So while I'm cranking down on the humidistat to keep the window sills from flooding/icing over, she is cranking it up because the Dr. told her to. And at the end of the heating season, it's time to bleach the windows and sills. They get refinshed every few years to counter the bleach.
I've been trying to design (in my head) a closed heating system for windows in which warm air enters through the head jamb and falls down the window and through the sill, is recirculated through a radiator, then back to the top. Of course, the window (and heating loop) would have to be isolated from the interior environment, which means another window, and so it goes. Cost prohibitive in the long run, but a nice mental exercise anyway.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Just a fan circulating air across the window will do it.
Or install storm windows PLUS the thermo window or some of the supper-insulated 3 triple pain stuff.
The only problem I have with the dehumidifier approach is that the real problem may lie elsewhere. Generally, indoor air in the winter is too dry, and a lot of people complain of the symptoms of dry air, so when you run across a case where it doesn't seem too dry, it may mean not enough fresh air changes. Or the other possibility is that the indoor humidity is just fine but the HO is pumping a lot more heat out his windows than he believed or hoped.
I agree with you that many people truly do suffer if the indoor relative humidity gets "too low".........like Nick's DW does. But the question posed by Landlord was concerning what is causing the icing on his windows and so that's the first question I tried to address. The answer is pretty simple really.........too high of an indoor relative humidity for the r-value of the windows at "that" outdoor temp....(without the suggested fans or other devices to circulate more air over the glass. Even that has it's practical limits I suspect.)
How to deal with it poses a passel of considerations and approaches to arrive at what will likely in the final analysis be as Madam Theo put it, a "compromise" between the comfort of the inhabitants (both health and wallet-wise) and the comfort of the house, particularly those windows.
And yes, I agee again that running a dehumidifier would potentially interfere with the signals one might get from alot of unexplained excess humidity which then might lead to discovering that the gas boiler or clothes dryer for example, is not venting properly and should be attended to immediately or dire physical consequences may be on the horizon. So in light of that, I guess I'd add that if a person does have that dehumifier plugged in and at the ready, that a good reliable CO detector should also be in place. Then again, I'd hope that folks realize enough about the dangers of CO these days that they'd have that detector in place anyway. Shouldn't count on it though. Lots of folks I know didn't get one until after they got sick from CO poisoning.
I won't be surprised if the particular windows in Landlord's house are found to be wanting and that the replacement of them might go a long way toward finding a resolution to the conflicting desires for higher indoor RH and the undesired condensation and icing. Until then, maybe a seasonal snow-cone business will be in order. Not usually much call for those in that kind of weather though. <G> Haven't had one in so long now that I can't remember what my favorite flavor was. One thing for sure...it wasn't CO flavor.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
>> ... maybe a seasonal snow-cone business will be in order. Not usually much call for those
>> in that kind of weather though.
My dad grew up in Texas, and when we lived in Montana, we would sometimes drive by Dairy Queen at lunchtime, and even in the winter there would be people standing in line. My dad would grumble, "People in Montana would stand in snow up their butts and eat ice cream."
A real Minnesotan will walk through a snowstorm to the store for a box of ice cream bars to eat on the way home.
rg
>> A real Minnesotan will walk through a snowstorm ...
These are my people.
Actually, I was born in South Dakota myself, but it abuts Minnesota.
Just putting curtains on windows , and using them, on winter nights will make a big difference in frost on windows. What`s the biggest R you gonna get in most (affordable) windows? 5? Probably gets to at least 8 ot 10 with a good set of draperies.
"we would sometimes drive by Dairy Queen at lunchtime, and even in the winter there would be people standing in line."
They do that here as well. But it's the burgers and fries they're after. You can tell by the shine on their chins as they exit and head for the car whilst lickin' their fingers.
Good friend here has a Goldwing. Assured me that everyone comes factory equipped with an ADQL. (automatic Dairy Queen locater)
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Speaking of CO poisoning... Two days ago three people died from it just a few miles from here. Kids go to the same school. The whole family is hospitalized with dad and two others gone. They complained of flu-like symptoms the day before. Only an inquisitive sister prevented the deaths of the rest.
CO is bad ju-ju and not to be fooled with.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
"CO is bad ju-ju and not to be fooled with."
Ditto that. Much as I hate to admit it, I shall. I was one of those people I referred to who didn't bother getting a CO detector until I was bitten. Pretty severe flu-like symptoms that persisted for weeks on end. No one else around seemed to have the flu. Finally realized there might be CO problem. Got a quality detector that very day. Had the answer soon after that. Found a "minor" fault in the flue from the furnace to chimney. Made repairs and started getting better. Took a couple of weeks to feel normal again.
Since then I've given around ten of them away for Xmas presents. Gets a strange look, almost disappointed sometimes, but I know the potential true value of the gift I've given......... even if the recipient doesn't understand. Makes me feel good anyway. <G>
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/14/2004 9:33:49 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
The gift of life. Although I use an oil fired boiler, I also have CO detectors. Cheap insurance, annual cost a couple of batteries, so why wouldn't you? Makes little sense, especially after what happened here over the weekend.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
We've got a fuel oil-fired forced air furnace. Trust me, they can get ya just as fast and steathily as a gas-fired appliance. You don't really want to find that out the hard way. Keep those batteries fresh and sleep easy. :-)
Edit: Ours are line voltage models. Plug in the outlet. No batteries to think about. If the power goes out, the furnace can't run anyway.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/14/2004 10:00:04 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
My question is, how do you achieve 40% humidity with hot water baseboard heat? Typically people with no humidified forced air would be complaining about a lack of humidity, i.e., major static electricity.
You don't say where you are so it is hard to guess what the outdoor conditions are.
What is the outdoor humidity level?
An air to air heat exchanger might be a good addition to the situation. You obviously cannot use the heat ducting since you have hot water heat but adding some fresh air should improve your humidity issue unless outside humidity levels are too high (unlikely I would think).
Randy