I just got the plans back for the work I will be doing on my circa:1680 house in the spring. In the additions I will be using thermo pane naturally. I’m looking for a “reasonably” priced window that can mimick the original 12 over twelves in the existing house. I refuse to use snap in grills…duh…and the true divided thermo pane lites are a small fortune. The grills that are permenant on the inside and outside of the glass with the interior filler pieces seems to be the most reasonable of all the choices I’ve seen so far and even that is pretty expensive. I’m thinking of using Marvin because from some other homes I’ve seen that are older the Marvin windows seem to look the best and I believe Marvin is a pretty good window. I don’t have a zilion windows to put in. Maybe twenty or so…..
Any other recommendations?
Thanks
Namamste’
Andy
One works on oneself, always. That’s the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. “Ram Dass”
Replies
I think some vinyl windows would look nice. With internal plastic thingys.
I once worked as a horse trainer. It was a stable job.
Andy, reading your posts over the fairly short period I've been here leads me to believe you take a lot of pride and pleasure in doing thing well. Have you considered building your own windows? It would be in keeping with you as well as your house. And the cost savings would be large.
Al
Hoo-Hah! How many windows do you have Andy? I'm guessing at least 40. Have you considered single-glazed double hung windows with the one-piece storm pane? They may be cheaper, and on some models the storm goes on the inside (a bit more convenient). You have to see them though, because you may not like the look, although they will be better than the snap-on grills....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
I'm with Al. I'd consider building my own if the building really mattered to me. 12 over 12s...seems like all those mullions would be trouble "u value" wise if you use true divided lites though. All the fake divided lites I've seen look phoney from either the inside or the outside though. How about you hunker down for the winter and build your own? Not that tough.
Tried to come back and edit it to be addressed to Andy Clifford, but can't seem to do that - sorry.
Edited 12/31/2002 4:47:14 PM ET by jim blodgett
Andy,
Have you got around to making that little sign with the changeable numbers that says "circa 322 year old house'? ;)
I would agree with you when ruling out true divided lites when using double glazing. This is because the muntins have to be so wide that it looks ridiculous.
If you go with the simulated divided lite (SDL) windows that you seem to be leaning towards, just remember that any condensation issues will ruin the entire sash and force you to start from scratch. Same goes for any damage to a single lite.
On a purely aesthetic level, I don't like the way SDLs look - at least if you're sensitive to historical details, which it seems like you may be. First of all, the depth of the muntin profile is necessarily reduced due to the thickness of the glass sandwich. Secondly, the fact that all the individual lites are in a common plane looks wrong to me. For example, when you walk by an antique window with independent lites, it kind of twinkles like light on the water, since each one of those lites is a fraction of a degree out of plane with the others.
If you are, in fact, sensitive to the historical integrity of the house, I think you should stick to single-glaze TDL sash. If properly weatherstripped, they may perform much better than you think. If you still want more thermal performance, you could add wood-framed storm sash on the exterior, and still retain a vintage look to the house. You might be interested in knowing that we've actually had single-glaze sash APPROVED by the building department when used in conjunction with storm sash.
Finally, manufacture of single-glaze TDL sash is easy enough for someone with the skill and desire, so you might be able to save yourself a lot of cash this way, too.
Regards,
Ragnar
Edited 12/31/2002 5:10:21 PM ET by ragnar
It used to be true that true divided required large muntins abour 1-1/8" or more and looked too bulky.
Marvin and Weathershield both have them down to about 7/8" now.
But, having that many TDL and muntins pretty well gaurantees you a chance for broblems down the road. Too many edge seals to go bad.
Martvin used to do their aplied muntins with no filer between the glass which allowed the two pieces to suck towards each other, reducing vacumn space and looking bad on a large frame sash. Now they use spacer bars.
Look for manufactureeres that make double glazed with a black spacer bar, IMO if you can't tolerate a custom job with single glazed. The Aluminum glares at you and draws attention to that fake quality..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin, do you know any specific manufacturers that offer the black bar on SDL? All I'm aware of are plain aluminum.
Al
Ask reps the question, if nothing else, it will increase demand from their perspective.
I hate to say it because I dion't likje them overall but I think that Pella has them. I know I saw them at a home show with someone else but can't remember now..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
What was your plan for the existing windows? What do you need for windows on the new part? How much do you want to make the addition look like it grew there? How real do you want to keep this place? Why the "I will be using thermo pane naturally."?
You have an it depends house. Sorry I have all questions, if I owned the house I would still have questions ten years from now.
Andy,
Try going to http://www.aresource.com . They sell anything you can think of for doors and windows in the way of hardware, weatherstripping, thresholds etc. They also have a branch that makes windows for old buildings to look like what is already there but having better insulating qualities than the old stuff did. They can even make you traditional doublehungs with the weights in the jambs. I found out about them at the National Restoration Show in Cleveland a few months ago. I just built a set of mahogany doors for a million dollar home(yes I will post some pics in the near future after they are installed and the stained glass is in) and I purchased my weatherstripping materials and doorbottoms from them. They are a class act.
Mark
Pro
Thanks.I actually have their site and I am considering them....
Everyone else.......Thanks for all the suggestions. MAking them myself is a bit insane with all I'm going to be doing as it is with this project..after all I only have one life left..lol. I'm going to make three garage doors to look like barn doors (insulated)to boot..on top of everything else. I will only have enough money to hire possibly two guys to help me for a period of time. I'll be doing "everything" from the framing to flooring to wood shake roof removal and installation to siding to .......I am leaning towards single pane with storms if the building department allows me to but they are seriously srict in this town. I won't have 40 windows to do. I am reusing the ones that I am taking out where the addition joins the house. I may have about 20 or less. I have to count them. I would prefere top keep the windows in the whole house alike but the BD may not allow me. I've been through this before with them and the codes are changing today (Jan.1,2003). The code changes supposably are real harsh which is why I got my plans in on the 30th of Dec in a rush...whewwwwww.
Thanks.any more advice will be appreciated.
Happy New Year
NAmaste
Andy....PS.and yeh...gonna make an LED sign out front that reads Circa: 323 year old house with the last number changing each year <G>One works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Not to worry, we've got faith in you. YOU CAN HANDLE IT!!! Good Luck
Mark
Pro and everyone else,
Thanks man....I'm going to check all my options. My first thought was Marvin but I'm going to have to go to the showroom this week and take a looks see at the window and prices. I'd never use Pella.I've had to much trouble with them in the past. My other option is single pane. I also WILL look into the kits..thats not a bad idea but I'm not so sure they make SDL's with a dark filler piece...but I definatly will look into that idea fer sure.
HAve a great new year,
Be well
Namaste'
Andy..
PS ......Gangs of New York is a great movie (where'd that come from? lol)One works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Well, I'm in the middle of "the window thing" with a client. We're on the east coast, and we are certainly aware of the asthetic issues you've mentioned.
We looked at Pella, the units had a decent look (the architect series), but the plastic used to slide and tilt the sashes was kind of cheesy. A real problem when the units get painted darker colors. The spacer bar is available in a brown color. The cladded units just didn't cut it appearance -wise. And the prices were very close to Marvin. Actually higher on some units. I told the salesman that he needed to look at that, and he agreed that if you are going to pay Mercedes prices, you might have an issue when a Volvo arrives. A new quote arrived, but the price was still too high.
We looked at Kolbe and Kolbe, but there were issues with delivery and price.
It came down to Norco and Marvin. Norco is better than Anderson, and significantly cheaper than Marvin. They also have dark spacer bars.
But only Marvin is Marvin. They are just plain better. The dividers fit waaaaay better, but alas, the spacers are silver. But they can be eliminated. I hope they dont go concave on us as was mentioned above.
I wonder if building your own single thickness TDL units might not be the way to go. For the winter, maybe making storm sashes with argon filled glass would solve the insulation issues.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
JAke
I'm on the north shore on Long Island.Just accross the LI sound from you. Cold Spring Harbor. Someone mentioned using the "kits" that MArvin makes and making your own frames. I havent checked into it yet to see wheater or not they have the dark spacer bars or not. I've installed them before on entire houses but never had the call for the spacers so I dont know. IMO grills without the spacers look kinda tacky if youre going for that old authentic look. Maybe I'll just yell atthe MArvin peeps for not making dark spacer bars....grrrrr.
Be well
Namaste
AndyOne works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Ahhhh! Nice area! I've visited for some Atlantic class one design sailboat races. The Cold Spring YC folk are great, and the clubhouse is awesome. A real old style "beach club".
Yeah....Marvin has 'em whipped in terms of solidity and lack of cheesy visible plastic. But they do have an issue with the spacer bar. Seems like it shouldn't be tough to incorporate on the assembly line, but as of today, my Marvin man tells me it's silver or nothing.
I did learn something new tody, though. Some jurisdictions will allow the entire double hung opening to count towards the 5.7 sq ft minimum egress requirement, where all other manufactures windows need to be significantly larger as the egress requiremnt will be met by the lower sash opening only. Thats a major deal for replacement of older smaller windows, as a double hung that meets the egress requirement is a big window indeed.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Andy, maybe another option would be to buy good quality sash replacement kits (Marvin, Kolbe, etc) and then build the frames yourself. That way you reduce the labor considerably over making your own sash and also have the factory warranty against glass failure. The kits are a bit pricy but they're still less than complete units. Don't forget to play the "personal residence" angle. Most manufacturers offer specfic discounts to contractors working on their own place. Your dealer salesman should be able to provide the info for you.
Al
You are right on that. I just used some unigue stuff from them. I bet Andy would enjoy a visit up there to meet them..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piff,
What can I say? Great minds think alike.
Mark
Aside from the price, take a look at Marvin ultimates. You'll like 'em, just might not want to spend the $. Gets worse if you custom size. A LOT worse. You on good terms with the window suppliers? Maybe they'd give you a little more slack on a housefull.
" We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita . . . "I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." - J. Robert Oppenheimer