HI all,
I am getting ready to build myself a new workshop and am hoping for some advice from you guys.
Per my city code I have to have plans stamped and sealed by either an architect or engineer. I have found some plans for a shop with loft on the internet that look like they would meet my needs.
I was wondering if anyone has any experience with buying prints online.
I am also tossed on the size to build, 1 option is 12×18 with a small loft. Total building ht. is 16’9″ the other is 18×24 with a loft. Total building ht. is 21’6″. I struggle with a small 8×12 shop now.
Again thanks for your input.
Bob
Tampa, Fl.
Replies
I don't know about buying plans. I will recommend that, barring lot size , easement or aesthetic constraints, that you build the larger of the two. Doubling the size should not double the cost so you are getting more bang for your buck. It is easy to underestimate the space you will need and even easier to deal with the unlikely event of having more space than you can use. Tools, materials and assorted stuff will rapidly expand in volume to fill all available space.The larger size will give you more of a chance to stay ahead of this inflation.
If you are unable or don't have time to draw your own plans (a shop can be pretty straightforward), you might try to find a draftsman or designer who can do it for you for a reasonable price. Such a person is usually connected with an engineer or architect who can bless the drawings.
I make this suggestion because a good shop should be designed for whatever you plan to do in it. For example, I like 9 or 10 foot ceilings because there's room to flip a sheet of plywood over endo, or roll a small wooden boat hull. And I can have enough headroom for a trolley hoist for moving heavy stuff around, like my powermatic planer or a big heavy beam, etc.
If you're going to be doing woodcarving and/or using carefully sharpened hand tools a wood floor is preferable to concrete when a tool is dropped edge down. And what will your loft be used for and how much weight will it need to carry?
And last, but not least.....VERY important....build the biggest shop you can afford or have room for!
Bild the bigger shop and finnish it before you move in . I wish I had finnished before I started using it.
I heard a garage salesman tell a customer he had never had anyone complain about having a too large garage. The same goes for workshops. I'm planning a new one currently. Draw your floor plan to scale and make scaled paper cut outs of the tools (including infeed and outfeed areas for each), work tables and storage areas you'll need. Move them around on your floor plan 'til you get a combo that suits you.
gl
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.Thomas A. Edison
Finally an easy question that I can answer with complete confidence. Build the big one, and leave room to add on!! When it comes time, make sure you provide lots of electric outlets, and good lighting. I also advize that all large tools be provided with wheels of some sort. As for plans I would think that local will be easier to submit for permits, or fix any ooops's. Custom plans won't break the bank, and you have to live with the results for years. Have fun in the new place.
Dan
P.S. I know of a man who had 30 x 60 and it wasn't enough.
I've got a 40' x 42' and it ain't enough.
What is your shop gonna be used for? Anything specific, or just a general purpose workshop?
I have built many garages/shops for clients, and what I have found more often than not is that pre-bought plans need to be modified to meet local codes. It would have been easier on everytone involved if they would have let me, or any number of local designers draw up the plans and have them stamped. That way we could have met code on the originals instead of the client paying for a set of plans, and then paying someone to alter them to meet code.
James DuHamel
J & M Home Maintenance Service
Wanted to thank you guys for the input. I chose the larger of the 2 and I also found a local draftsmen to draw the plans he works with an engineer so I will get my plans signed and sealed.
I will post some pictures when I get started.
Thanks again,
Bob
If you don't mind sharing...what do you expect the drafting and stamping to set you back? I'm currently drawing my own plans, and will be looking to find someone to review and stamp 'em.
Engineers I've hired through work typically run $90/hr-140/hr but that's higher end commercial construction. Would residential stuff would be in the same rate ballpark?
My guess is a straight forward 32X32 shop plan would just be a couple hrs review time. Is this reasonable?
Thanks.
Your costs for an engineer are about right, maybe a little high depending on what part of the country you are from. I would like to point something out. In the two states I am registered (Texas & New Mexico), it is illegal to seal plans prepared by a non registered person, unless that person has worked with the engineer during their preparation. You might save yourself some grief by locating the engineer first and then come to agreement on how to proceed. The engineer can lose his license if he reviews plans and places his stamp on them unless the plans were prepared by another registered engineer or if they were prepared directly under his supervision. Generally, a shop building in Texas would not require an engineer/architech stamp unless it is has open spans in excess of 24 feet. New Mexico requires seals on all steel structures but not on conventionally framed buildings in most residential applications. The laws get kind of complicated so you really need to check them out. Usually the building inspector can tell you but you also can go to the website of the state board of registration to read the law.
Another thing you might want to consider on prefab steel buildings. They often come with a seal from a registered engineer from the factory. However, check that this seal is valid for the state in which you reside. Also note that you will probably need to get a design and seal for the foundation of a steel building. This is separate from the building. Most prefab manufactures wont even touch the foundation design because of the variations of soils encountered.
While these laws might seem extreme or unnecessary, I can assure you that the engineer earns his money as he designs your structure and assumes liability for its structural integrity. Steel structures especially, with open spans, must be designed properly for them to be be safe. Good luck with your shop. Incidentally, my steel building shop is 24' x 48' with attached 24' x 24' office and I wish it were larger! I don't think you can make one too big.
I'll second that, and add that in the (Northeast) States where I'm registered, I get newsletters from the State Boards which (in some) include disciplinary proceedings against engineers and land surveyors. One of the most common is sealing work not done under the engineer's direct supervision (exact wording varies by State), and may include fines and/or suspension. Not that there's a lot of disciplining going on, but as a percentage of the total, that's a big one. Work it out with the draftsman and engineer in advance, face to face if possible, by all means.
Edit: Should have been addressed to Stray.
Be seeing you...
Edited 7/3/2002 1:53:28 PM ET by TDKPE
I've often wondered about the "direct supervision" thing. I've seen it in a lot of specs on larger commercial jobs, but it's always ignored.
Actually, I don't see how it could be possible in the business I'm in - We design the trusses in house, and send them out to be sealed. No way we could do that under "direct supervision", unless every truss plant had an engineer at every location. Or if engineers actually designed every single truss out there.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this......
You raise some good points and I am going to do some further checking when we have our engineering chapter meeting in a couple of weeks. We have some civil/structural engineers associated with our group and also a major truss manufacturer in our area. While I am sure that lots of stuff gets done not according to the letter of the law, if there ever was a problem with a truss you can rest assured that it would come back on the engineer who sealed the drawing.
I'm only guessing but I'll bet that the truss manufacturers have an engineer on staff or one they call upon. I would think that the dimensions would be read from your drawings and a shop drawing made in a CAD program. The CAD file would be exported to a truss analysis program. Then, the CAD drawing might be exported into another piece of software that cuts out the materials. Once these programs were set up, it would only take minutes to design, analyze and cut materials for a truss.
Mike
Actually, CAD has nothing to do with truss design. (But thats a common misconception)
The software for the trusses is written by the plate manufacturers. You get to use the software "free" as long as you buy the truss plates from them. The software is constantly changing - I've learned about 9 new software packages since I started designing trusses about 1985.
Trusses are virtually ALWAYS designed by guys like me. (High school only - no college or engineering training) I only know of one truss company in all of Illinois that employs it's own engineer. And he just reviews truss designs, he doesn't do them himself.
If the trusses require a seal, the files are emailed off to the engineers that work for the truss plate supplier. The sealed drawings are sometimes emailed back now, which is great. I have never met the majority of the engineers who've sealed truss designs I've done or worked "under their direct supervision". Only about one truss in a thousand that I've done have been reviewed by anybody.
As for your comment:"if there ever was a problem with a truss you can rest assured that it would come back on the engineer who sealed the drawing." I've never been involved in a case like that, but I'm sure they exist. Every lawsuit I've been involved in was just stupid stuff where everybody involved got sued just to see if they have insurance. I've never been involved in a lawsuit where the truss company actually did anything wrong.
BTW - I like to tell people I'm a P.E. - But I also quickly tell them it stands for "Pretend Engineer"
If you have a minute, please tell me more about the truss software. Does it do a stress analysis? Or does it give you lengths and angles of all the members and print you out a cut list? Can it generate NC code and send cutting instructions directly to the machines? I have not visited a truss building factory so this is very interesting to me.
Not having this specialized software, I would have to take the approach of developing the geometry in CAD (AutoCAD) and then performing the analysis in a structural program, or just do it all by hand. I would probably use IES (Integrated Engineering software) for the analysis. It is quite straightforward and you can either use its own geometry input or you can import directly from AutoCAD. What I am working with more and more these days is CAD/CAM software where the AutoCAD drawings can be imported directly into NC equipment like laser cutters, plasma cutters, lathes, milling machines, etc. The results are great! However, I have not worked with any NC equipment specifically made for the home building trades. I'll bet your industry has some very nice NC equipment!
The sealing issues have always generated lots of discussions among engineers. There has been lots of disciplinary action issued against engineers who "plan stamp". I sell engineering, not seals. As a matter of fact, I would be quite upset if an engineer made me pay money to him to seal work that I had performed! If an engineer is merely sealing other people's work without being involved in the process, he is stealing and not doing his job. In most state's law concerning professional engineers, there will be words to the effect, "safeguard life, health and property and to promote the public welfare." The engineers I know take this very seriously. It is no different than what I expect when I have a licensed electrician or plumber perform a job for me. I am counting on their experience and knowledge to do or see that the job is done correctly... not just sign off a piece of paper and send me a bill.
I appreciate your comments. I definitely want to learn more about the truss building industry and perhaps tour a facillity. Thanks for your time. Take care.
Mike
Trying to describe truss design software might be a bit difficult, but I'll give it a shot.
First you input the basic parameters - Span, overhang, heel heights, loading conditions, etc. Then obviously is member sizes, pitch, web configuration, etc. Then the software gives you a picture on the screen of what you're created.
At that point, you splice members that are longer than what you have in stock. Web configurations can be changed or optimized. (Move a joint over so an 8' 1" piece can be cut out of 8' lumber, for example) Loading can be modified for drift loads, girder loads, etc. Member sizes can also be changed as needed. Heck, you can change anything at this point.
The next step (At least in the software I use) is called "engineer". It basically does a preliminary check to make sure the bearings actually touch the truss, no overlapping pieces, etc.
Then comes "analyze". That's where it actually calcs the forces in each piece, checks web buckling lengths, etc. If anything doesn't work the program pops up an annoying warning window.
Assuming this all works, the next step is "plating". The program attemtps to plate each joint in the truss. If it can't plate a joint, you can try to plate it yourself. All this can take as little as 10 seconds for a simple truss, or over an hour on a complex one.
Then the engineering file is saved in a database. You can print out cutting in hundreds of different formats, depending on your preferences. you cna print stuff out for any individual truss, or as many as you want batched together.
As for CNC (Computer Numeric Controlled) machinery - It's becomming more popular all the time. Most common are the CNC saws, at about $200,000 a pop. There are also assembly tables which use lasers to define the perimiter of trusses. And some use round "pucks" which move automatically to speed setup. But they're fairly rare, and don't work incredibly well. (And they're danged expensive)
Different people have experimented with ways to automate assembly of trusses. But I don't look for that anytime soon. It's hard to teach a machine to deal with crooked lumber...........(-:
I don't have the answers to the "plan stamping" issue. For the most part, I tend to resent the interference of the engineers. Most of the people who seal my designs are fresh out of college and have no practical knowledge of construction OR trusses. But they have the piece of paper that says they're an engineer. (Obviously there are many exceptions to this)
I also resent the fact that when I am forced to submit sealed drawings on a job, everyone who reviews them puts a stamp on them which basically says that they haven't really looked at them, and aren't responsible for anything that's wrong. In many cases, architects and engineers have completely missed serious problems with sealed drawings, but nit pick over minor things. If they aren't going to look at the drawings, and aren't responsible for anything, why do I have to go to the trouble of sending them in? Pardon me for drifting off the issue a bit and venting a little frustration.
Where are you located? I might possibly be able to refer you to a truss plant that would give you a tour. You cna email me if you don't want to make your location public.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
While it may not be technically correct, it is the standard practice most places for someone else to design the bulding and the engineer follows after to approve, improve, or reject the design.
Where I run into it is a client hires an architect to design an addition or remodel. Some archs are more into interior design or space and style than structure. Moving structural walls and resizing windows means nothing more to them than moving lines on paper. Owner approves the design concept and by the time I get into it, I have to ask, "when did you get this plan engineered?" because of its obvious disregfard for structural load paths. So I go to the engineer and say, "Here's the existing. Here's the goal. How can we accomplish it?" or "Can we do it this way?" He'll give me from one to four options to work over costs on and discuss with the owner or architect.
Our area doesn't require stamps on plans but for my own protection, if I'm out of my league on something I design, I have it reviewed by the engineere.
This has been an enlightening thread for a simple start.
BTW, My shop is 14' x 34' x 10'ceiling with loft for storage. I wanted to be able to run millwork inside up to 16' long on bad days but most times I run the equiptment up near the OH door at the end and blow dust out.
I outgrew the shop size within a year. Looking at a 28' x 48' for the next one.Excellence is its own reward!
piffin -
When you start getting into blueprints, you're opening up a whole new can of worms. We can start another thread about it if you like, but I think we've hijacked this one enough.
I didn't really see it as a hijack because it proceeds directly from the issue in the original question which was something like "should I buy plans over the internet or thru the mail"
One of the biggest reasons not to do that is the stamping, engineering issue to satisfy local building departments. I think that more and more local architects and engineers are starting to refuse to stamp such things because of the way the internet is intruding on their turf. They are starting to stand up on their hind legs and kick back. Whether they should or not is not something I will comment on.
Don't know if it has been mentioned previously but for this type building, some places don't require engineering like they do for residential. In other places, they might consider it commercial and apply an even more rigorus code.
I think this poster has the right approach of a team who work together and the price can't be beat.
Excellence is its own reward!
Boss
I hate to tell you, that is CAD. Computered Aided DESIGN.
AutoCAD and the like, with out add on's, is Computer Aided DRAFTING.
Both called CAD.
I always looked at CAD as Computer Aided Drafting, which is what I understood it originally meant.
Computer Aided Engineering was called CAE, but pronounced like "Kay".
Maybe it's a regional thing?
Is a book on voyeurism a peeping tome?
HI Stray,
I found a draftsmen who works with an engineer. I gave the guy the plans I had sketched and he is going to design it and his engineer will stamp and seal it. The cost he quoted me was $285.00. I live in Tampa and any accessory building in a residential area that exceeds 100sq. feet requires the stamp and seal of an engineer or architect. I would be able to go up to 250 sq. feet if the building was prefab. Mine is going to be 16 x 24 with a loft and a 10 x 24 pole and beam storage area attached to one side that I will enclose when I feel I need the extra room.
Good luck,
Bob
Before you spend money on plans, check with your building department to see if the plans will fit your lot's zoning.
Check your setbacks, total allowable square footage, height etc.
No point spending money on something you are not allowed ot build.
just stopped in yesterday at this Harbour frieght place off 95 down south, I forget whether it was north or south, but it was definatly in one of the carolinas, big place, can't miss it, I thought they were just mail order, anyhow, what the hell, I checked it out, and they had a small "space saver-like" dust collector, just the motor and inlet and outlet, you have to get yer own hoses and bag, I don't know why I remembered such a thing but you should get this thing and try it out and let the world know that it works, for such a small shop like you are building you can stick it in the attic. They also had a good deal on work gloves I thought.
no turn left unstoned