soon, with any luck, i’ll be sanding down my old oak floors with a orbital-type floor sander. i do not want to polyurethane them. i would really like to refinish them they way they were originally don ca. 1935, although i really can’t tell you why or what i have against poly.
i have a hundred-yr-rule i fall back on when it doesn’t mean way too much more work and mess (like drywall vs plaster and lathe– i’ll take drywall).
so what exactly was the final treatment for floors 100 years ago, or even 70 yrs ago?
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ask Piffen or Goldhiller... either of those two will remember...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
100 years ago was wax finish -- 70 years ago would have been the start of shellac.
For an antique finish, sand it to 'baby's-bum' smooth and make up a penetrative oil of equal parts of pure tung oil, boiled linseed oil and turpentine.
Apply the oil with a lambswool applicator, keeping the timber wet until it's saturated then mop up the excess with old towels or the like.
[WARNING: these will spontaneously combust within half an hour if left screwed up -- dispose of them either by burning or spread them out somewhere to thoroughly dry, then soak them with water]
Go over the floor with a thin coat of Johnson's paste wax and that's it for today. Next day, rent a floor buffer and nylon pads and buff the floor at least 5 times [don't add more wax], wiping off any oil that might bleed back out of the joints.
Repeat this for 2 more days.
If you want a really old look -- like this floor in the photo -- melt beeswax, take it off the heat and add black stain and twice the volume of turpentine -- you want a sloppy consistency about like yoghurt. Wipe that on to the floor, filling the grain, then put a piece of old carpet under the buffer and buff off all the excess.
Maintenance -- never wash the floor; the finish isn't waterproof. Clean with a flat mop on which has been sprinkled a few drops of teak oil or cedar oil or similar. That's all the maintenance it will ever need -- the more you walk on it, the better it will look.
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IanDG
LOL IMERC
and THANKS ian!
The ones I remember seeing didnt look like they were finished.
Tim Mooney
I agree with Ian....paste wax...easy to put down but you have to be willing to keep up with it. It wears rather fast if you have a fair amt of traffic.
I've even used it over poly to give some furnature I've built a more natural softer look.
Be well
a...
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
easy to put down but you have to be willing to keep up with it
Andy,
I wouldn't recommend a paste wax finish -- as you mentioned, it's high maintenance but also it becomes very slippery when dusty.
The penetrating oil finish is about the same sheen as satin poly, so non-slip -- the use of paste wax as part of the application is only to prevent any bleed back of oil over the first night. By the time the floor's been buffed for 3 days there's no wax left.
The other problem with a wax finish is that it takes a long time for the wax to penetrate the timber to bring out the color. In fact, when I do a beeswax floor, I heat the wax to 200F and paint it on as a liquid so it penetrates like oil.
IanDG
Ian
A few years ago a friend told me of an amazing floor he saw in ( I think ) India. He said it made little 'squeak' noises when you walked on it.
He offered to polish it if they told him the recipe.
Turned out it was grated sunlight soap dissolved in turps. The soap brand might not make much sense, but it is a hard yellow soap, commonly used for doing the laundry.
I was wondering if this might be 'waterproof'?
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
Adam,
I doubt that it would be waterproof but it would make a good dance floor!
They'd scatter soap flakes [can you still get those?] on the floor and tread them in to give the floor the necessary 'slip'.
IanDG
Pretty sure you can still get soap flakes here. Dont think many use them anymore though. Everyone seems to go for the big carcinogen brands.
Thanks for the info on the oil finish. Might do mine like that.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
LOL piffin- who knows, maybe the floor in the toddler's room will wind up saying in the best shape!goldhiller- funny, the cloudiness did not occur to me, but i did wind up doing what you said kind of by default. put first coat on in kitchen (white pine) in satin. once i knew how much i'd need to finish (assuming that the first coat would soak into the wood and cracks between planks, using more),i went for the rest but they were out of satin so i got gloss. used gloss for layers 2-7 and the satin for final 2 thin coats. looks great. someone upstairs was watching out for me i guess. ignorant as i was, i would not have bought flat for the middle coats if they'd had it. even i could figure that one out.
you all are giving me a great education on wood floors. i'm going to go through and make a bottom-line list of the care each treatment needs before i decide. i'm still at least a month away from this project.
I agree with Ian.
Shellac was the most common film finish. until it was superceded by poly -- which is more durable and easier to apply.
I'd think twice about wax. To look right, it requires constant maintenance -- buffing maybe weekly, reapplication probably monthly.
I can appreciate your desire to use an "authentic" finish on your floors, but…………….are you sure you're up for the maintenance? Depending upon which floors are involved, your willingness to remove your shoes if they're carrying any salt during the winter, your general personal habits of caring for the floor, willingness to ask your incoming guests to do the same, etc.………you may or may not approve of the performance of either the penetrating oil-finish or the shellac.
Although shellac is an evaporative finish which therefore allows for future relatively easy over-coating when/if wear-thru becomes evident or damage occurs, it is not nearly as water and chemical resistant as today's more modern/advanced finishes. This ups the odds that repair and/or nearly anal retentive care will be required to maintain a pristine look….if that's what you desire.
Shellac is also inherently a glossy finish. If this is what you're trying to avoid by giving the thumbs down to a poly finish or similar, bear that in mind. Homestead Finishing sells a flattening agent for shellac though, if you're bound and determined to proceed with it and wish to avoid the glossy look.
The modern finishes have replaced these older finishes on floors primarily because they reduce the need for immediate critical maintenance if spills or water puddles occur near the entrance, etc. And they are tougher as far as wear-thru goes. IOW, the newer finishes are less demanding. And those newer finishes do not have to result in a thick plastic look if that's something that you want to avoid.
If it's just a matter that you want to adhere to a restoration purist's approach, there's been good info given by Ian already. As for me……… while I can appreciate the look of these older floor finishes, I wouldn't personally use them in my own home as I don't care to spend my time on my knees paying homage to a floor finish……nor do I have the time to do so. If one has to adhere to historic restoration practices because of one's locale…….. that pretty much decides it, but if given the option I'd opt for a tougher and less demanding finish.
The "on my knees tending the floor" is a common misconception.
The penetrative oil finish I've described -- as long as it's used in an area where you could safely use fitted carpet, because it's not waterproof -- is the lowest-maintenance finish you'll ever find.
It never needs re-coating and scratches and dents just form a patina of age that makes an oiled floor look so attractive -- but so ugly when it's damage to a film coating.
I've got a photo on my site of an oiled floor that is 10 years old and looks better now than it did the day that I finished it.
When it comes to aesthetics there's absolutely no contest -- look at these two floors -- both are Tasmanian Oak but one is finished with oil, the other with polyurethane.
The oiled floor also has the advantage that it's permeable to moisture so it's the ideal finish over RFH because it allows the timber to recover moisture quickly once the heating is off -- so avoiding the excessive shrinking and panelisation caused by the 'ratchet' effect of a film coating.
IanDG
I would agree that the finish you've referred to would be low maintenance in the appropriate room/location.....and that's why I said "depending upon which room........location".....or something like that. Your reference to fitted carpet is pretty descriptive of the right room for such a finish, except that I know lots of folks with carpet in a bathroom. ;-) The look of a penetrative finish is really nice for sure. However it just wouldn't cut the mustard here in the kitchen. You have as yet to witness my DW's frenzied all-day cooking and baking sessions every weekend. LOL Stuff is flyin' everywhere. The results are definitely worth it though and you won't find me complaining by any stretch, but woe be to any floor finish that doesn't realize what will be required of it. Another of my voiced concerns results from what I've seen happen to floors with shellac or penetrating oil finishes when the residents also salt their front sidewalks or concrete stoops and just drop their shoes on the floor inside the door or don't even bother to remove them at all. Ugh. We'll leave the description at that for now.Another problem is if alcoholic beverages are spilled and not promptly wiped up. Like virtually instantly. That's death on a shellac finish.All in all, I think each person has to decide which finish meets their most important crtiteria for aethetic purposes and maintenance concerns. Some tradeoffs usually.PS- I always like seeing your work cause it's top-notch and you're apparently very thoughtful and knowledgable about what you do. Of course, I've referred lots of folks to your site for those reasons.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
the maintenance issue you all bring up is the main reason i wanted your expert advice. no, indeed i do not want to be buffing floors weekly, esp with a 3 yr-old boy, but i don't believe the average family did either, in 1905. or did they? i'm not talkng about the vanderbilts or asters, but a typical household. i was thinking, based on the look of most average older floors i've seen, that there was some long-forgotten magic treatment that held up well with low maintenance.i have poly'd floors, in a rental house my dad owns that i refurbished this last year. i pulled up nasty carpet and nasty torn vinyl and nails and sanded them down and just applied plain polyurethane (oil based Varethane) on them; about 8-10 coats of satin finish. they did look beautiful and i did them expressly for low maintenance as the rental scene is a nightmare.
as i said, i have no really good reason to avoid doing that for myself. my house is definitely not on the historic register.
just wanted to see what lost arts of floor finishing i could dig up; i'd like to try the special oil mixes if the maintenance isn't too bad. BTW, no salted roads here in the south, just lots of rain and mud and a little boy with a sandbox in the back yard.
"applied plain polyurethane (oil based Varethane) on them; about
8-10 coats of satin finish."I kinda hope you didn't actually mean you applied that many coats of satin, but rather just "topped off" with satin. I can only imagine that so many coats so satin would lend a pretty cloudy appearance. Usually one applies gloss for the initial coats and at most, two coats of satin as the final coats to reduce the final sheen level.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Give the kid kneepads and felt wheels for the Tonka trucks and he'll take care of the buffin action.Ian''s advice is good, too, but if you don't feel comfortable mixing your own concoction, get Waterlox and follow the instructins.IMERC, I'm gonna get you for that!You know I'm getting so old I have CRS disease...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
also,
read here, on these very boards, a while back (2 months? 4 months?) that just simply sanding with super-fine sand paper brought the wood to near-oiled look.
i haven't done my floors yet (still reading every thread about wood floors like a depraved (and deprived) maniac), but thought you might enjoy this interesting tidbit i picked up.
the oil finish does sound mighty interesting, doesn't it?
another thing to keep in mind is whether you'll have the sweet sound of a puppy's toe nails going click click click on your wood floor. if so, you might want to go with a harder poly finish (again, this is info i picked up on the boards here).
on the shellac option -- my memory is that shellac darkens pretty badly over time. for example, all the older oak furniture (and trim/molding) that is dark oak, was initially light, but the shellac has darkened them. so, no, our ancestors did not favor the dark wood look, but we now have ended up with dark finishes due to the aging of the shellac. any thoughts on this, all you posters out there?
another consideration is the wood. most likely you've got a nice hard wood of some sort, but i've got (very very pretty!) pine, which has added extra issues to my floor finishinng issues.
will ya do this? post us some pictures when you're done. when folks come back and give the follow up info, everyone benefits, and your ideas/goals are most interesting!
thanks for the thread,
Doug
Northeast Indiana
p.s. -- just thought about what i read about your little one's sandbox -- that could make a difference in how you finish the floor, ya know. you're lucky, though -- no salt! :-)
Doug,
here's a link to an instruction sheet for DIY floor sanding and finishing, using rental equipment, which you may find useful.
IanDG
Ian,
Wow. Nicely done web page (I downloaded the .pdf, too!) and nicely done floor! And great info, too! Lots of tips and techniquies I have not run across so far, and yet everything you two did makes so much sense! Like, sanding on the diagonal, and the application of the urethane.
I'm gonna read it like 25 or 30 times and let it all sink in. Mighty generous of you to have make the web site, and to have shared it! I know I speak for all others who get a chance to follow that link to your site, too.
Liked the other stuff at your site, too!
A big thanks, and a tip of the hat to you!
Doug
Northeast Indiana
tryin' to figure out how much the airfare is nowadays from England to the Midwest! <grin>
Psst, keep it quiet, but I'm hoping to be a Montana resident very soon!
IanDG
Psst, keep it quiet, but I'm hoping to be a Montana resident very soon!
You sure you could make the transition? From relatively heavily populated area with mild climate to WIDE OPEN... Might have 40 miles to the nearest neighbor... bitter cold winters.
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers. -- Walter Percy Chrysler
You are thinking about the climatic comnsiderations. I was concerned more about his climactic socio-political adaptations or mutation necessary to survive...He can probably handle it - after all, I managed to move east to a liberal state and adapt.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
but without mountains...
sent an email...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
haven't seen the email
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yesterday...
spans...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
found it, but I'm unclear as to direction of joists. Sounds mighty tricky. Any way to scetch it out with relation of cantilever to overall layout? fax 207 734 6993
I'm going offline now and will be in office a while in morning. Email problem - I found three emials from you in my trash folder. It is my provider's spam program sorting them out that way and i had made those settings on the other computer. I have re-download the software to control it to this PC so i can make adjustments and put you on the good guy list. Confusing thing to me is that some of your emails get through to me and some don't. That one had no attachments that might have triggered a reject.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 2/16/2005 11:20 pm ET by piffin
GH...What exactly would the flattening agent for shellac be? As you may know, I worked with M.Dresdner on the Hydro-Cote line of finishes, as well as Clearwater Color Co. products.Without digging too far , I thought you might enlighten me..I guess I could Email him, but you seem to have an answer....
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Note the bottom two items on this here page and I think you'll have what you wanted to know.Do I have experience with this flattening agent? Nope. Just saw a while back that it's available.http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/shellac3.htmKnowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
t'anks...i gotta do some refanagleing........................
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Reglar varnish was used before the polyurathanes came out. Shellac was used a good hundred years ago, and before that the penetrating oils like linseed.
It wasn't around 100 years ago, but I just finished my new white oak floor with Synteko Solids. You can find it on the web. The floor looks great, like any new oil finish on hardwood. My flooring expert advisor said it ought to wear well, tho will need some maintenance. The upside is that any repairs can be made easily and without refinishing the entire floor. I'm confident the finish will do well for us.
Jeff
I'm not a floor finisher and don't pretend to be ...
Ditchburns is ... and he's one I trust.
had him out to look at a floor recently ... an 80 to 100 year old "top nail" ... something I'd never seen before ....
the floor had always been waxed ... the lady was thinking of sanding/refinishing.
He told her two options ... as the floor was officially shot ....
if she wanted a floor to perform as new ... tear out her "historic" floor and start new ...
if she could live with the creaks and squeaks ... and didn't mind continuing to get out the hammer and nail set ever so often to set the offending nail heads ... just clean and rewax.
we got a kid to hand scrub it with TSP ... cleaned off 99% of the old top wax ...
he's supposed to come back and hand buff the wax back on.
Ditch said ya can't poly over a previously waxed floor like this ... as there is still a wax build up between the boards ... and deep into the grain ... and the poly would only lift after a short period of time.
Made sense to me.
hence ... the rewax.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
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Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
View Image Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff,If you really wanted too you could shellac the floor and then varnish over top. As long as you used a dewaxed shellac like Zinsser clear 3lb cut you will not have any adhesion problems with the varnish. Shellac is very tenacious, sticks to just about anything, and gives a good surface for other topcoats. Plus if you want you can tint shellac to give the floor some color and even out wear patterns.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com