Hello,
First I will introduce myself, I have occasionally lurked on this site for a number of years (and been impressed with the thoughtful information that is shared). I am mostly a one person show in southern Maine, doing just about everything based more on client match than work description. I have done some historic restoration, additions, and lots of problem solving work on relatively recent construction. I have also done some larger jobs utilizing other carpenters as subs and one of these projects is what I need some feedback on. I did a major 12 month renovation/addition three years ago (Dec./01-Dec./02) and am currently in a crisis as a result. This project had no written contract (I know, I know, my other task today is to format a contract blank and actually start using it. I am a single parent and have struggled to make the administrative time, and to figure out how to get paid for it.) and I am all too aware of hitting both my feet simultaneously with that double barreled shotgun. I am going to try to attach a few photos for context, and will try not to belabour this too much and bore you all. The project involved tearing the 2nd floor off of part of a rambling old cape and building a new 2nd floor including a 12×40 foot 2 story addition off the back. I also had to remove a 16×24 foot roof and add 2nd floor to connect the new upstairs with the old at the other end of the house. In collaboration with an extraordinary structural engineer we pulled off some pretty spectacular feats, this whole new space being supported down through kitchen and living area occupied by the clients. They were not initially concerned with the scope of the project and were clueless about what they wanted, the addition and a new kitchen being nonchalantly added. I built rain screen walls, bent my own copper flashing, etc. (high end quality). I am rambling here, more to the point, they freaked about the cost 80% of the way through, and let me go before completing the project. My agreement with them involved charging everything out (labour and materials) at cost, and adding 15% for my G.C. fee. I included my own physical labour on site at a reduced rate to the labour costs, but all of my administrative costs came out of the G.C. fee. On termination, I returned 3000 dollars of my G. C. fee, not because I thought it was fair, but in the interest of finding resolution. I had no notice, so had no other work because I was out of the loop and had turned away all my other possibilities, and I spent 2 weeks photocopying every invoice and fully documenting every cent of the project. Now to my problem. A massive chimney in the connector hallway had to be extended about 4 feet and reflashed for the new roof. This chimney appeared to be leaking, and was one of the last things i was addressing before termination. The chimney has been leaking for almost 3 years. The clients called me up recently and apealed to me to help them fix it. They have had 3 or 4 other people attempt it with no success. There is also a leak in a 20+ year old Velux roof window that we raised and reset in another section of the old roof which I had to add shimmed sleepers and a new 3/4 plywood deck to eliminate a roof pond. I (stupid me) went out on my own time and assessed the situation. Obviously none of the attempts at fixing things were based on any ability to discern the real problems, and made a mess of things, mostly with tubes of caulking all over the flashing, but also undoing some of my work around the chimney and replacing it with some pretty lame attempts. No one even bothered to open the roof window, which revealed the obvious source of the leak in the unit itself. I had set three other new skylights in the same roof, but reused this existing one after consultation with the owners to save money. I can say unequivocally, that my own work (which included counterflashing and soldered copper boots around some of the chimney challenges, and bomb proof membrane and custom bent aluminum coil stock flashing around the skylight) is not the issue. It appears that the mason I subbed the chimney work to, messed up his mortar mix and used a poor detail where the new work started from the old corbel. The skylight is a problem with the unit itself. So….I put in a day with my summer employee fixing some of the damage done by others to the roof, and then a day the week before last with a friend who does stonework repairing the corbel issue, one definitive source of the chimney leak determined by using a hose. I informed the clients that there may well be further issues with the chimney, we would have to wait until it rained, and that I could either replace the skylight, or try to add some weatherstripping to the open gaps. I spent more of my own time gathering and providing info on skylights, and collected a check for the 2 days labour including the mason. Well, rain it did last saturday in a record breaking way, and i get a call that the chimney is leaking. I take my 5 yr. old daughter and spend an hour (again of my own time) with a flashlight trying to determine the source and plan further repair. I get a call last monday asking to meet with me, and informing me that a stop payment has been put on my check. We meet today and the client demands to know what my responsibility is for resolving this problem. I explain that the issues are not with my work, the choice to reuse the old sky light was his, and i was excluded from any opportunity to address the chimney issues, so now after three years and people doing deleterious work on the chimney, it didn’t leave me anything to work with. I was accused of being unwilling to ever take any responsibility for things, and told I would be sued. Let’s just say they can afford the best lawyer in the country without blinking, and the stop payment on that check leaves me in financial crisis. I am interested to hear what your opinions are regarding my responsibility/liability. I tend to bend over backwards delivering first rate work honestly to my clients, and I guess I will also have to willingly accept any remarks aimed at my shortcomings and stupidity. If you have arrived here, thanks for wading thru this!!!
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Sorry, I see that the photo's are too big, but I can't figure out how to resize them. Here's one that got lost in my initial post. Thanks, daniel
Try again!
I've now seen the photos and resized them for you. I don't normally open any that are larger that are larger than ahundred or so KB. Most of these don't seem to show anything pertaining to your problem. They do indicate that you do great work overall though.
#3 shows the chimney from a distance but I couldn't see any skylights, much less the details of it.
It looks like they ran out of money before you built the front steps too. Those are a temporary construction flight right?To be honest with you, I don't know if I would want to pay you for fixing the chimney leak either. I don't know how decisions were made in progress, but there are two thing wrong that I can see from the distance. one is that the thing corbels in and not out, inviting leakage. That should have a lead through flashing for something like that. Personally, I would have torn the thing down to below the roof level and rebuilt from there to be sure of getting good flashing to shingles, consistant colour matches, and eliminate the unsightly corbeling in. This is a design problem and not merely a mortar quality problem. Mortar is not waterproof.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
too funny - both trying to do the same thing - I figured with your dial up you were HINTING for me to get to it! LOL!
oh well!DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
nah - I was waiting for his big 'uns to get to me! No hints.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
och! I shoulda known......
be chagrined...DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
Thanks everyone for the responses! Sorry for the protocol clumsiness, I spent 2 hours trying to write that sucker and sent it off too quick. I will answer some of you individually as well. My main question concerns what my responsibility is here. I was unable to find any Maine state info online that specified time limits for construction warranties. My sense is that expecting me to be responsible for the mason's work after three years have passed, is unconscionable. I don't see how i could expect the mason to take responsibility after three years with other people messing around with it. Thanks again, daniel
I want to give you all an update.........I got home late last night to find a letter in my mailbox from my (former) client, very curt, condemning, and including three checks; one for my helper, one for my mason friend, and one for me. ah, life's never ending lessons! Thanks for your input and support.
Edited 10/19/2005 9:12 pm ET by macmillan
Hey Daniel - sounds like good news!?!
(If they made good on ALL they owed ya...then ya got a chance to WALK away now - fast and far! and take the Lessons Learned with ya...fer sure!)DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
thanks, yes he made good, just needed to feel like he was in charge so rather than rewriting the original check he wrote individual ones so the money wouldn't pass through my hands. As i heard a young woman say today........."whatever". Now if i can just stop my brain from continuing to try and work on the chimney!!!! Thanks so much for your support, daniel
"Now if i can just stop my brain from continuing to try and work on the chimney!!!!"
YOU BETTER! or I swear I got a 2x4 sitting here ready to smack ya upside of yer head! <g>
(don't mind DanH's tone in post to ya above. He's a good guy - just hasn't used his "scroll down - as in ARROW - key, to get down to about post #7 of this thread...yet)
DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
Edited 10/19/2005 11:14 pm ET by mizshredder2
Thanks for your attention (and perseverance). Good eye on the chimney issues. The original chimney had a corbel out on the top, which is obviously the lower corbel. The mason removed the wash on the top, and extended from there with a matching corbel at the new top. I asked him about water issues, but deferred to his experience at the time. That is the first thing I investigated now, he ran sloped mortar around the top of the lower corbel to shed water, and most of it had released from the brick. No flashing, and gaps in the head joints between the corbel bricks. 10 seconds after putting a hose to it water came out inside (what a surprise!). Meanwhile, some bozos had slobbered gobs of geocel caulking all over the roof flashing because they were clueless about why it might be leaking. I considered trying to add flashing, but there was metal of some kind in the first mortar joint above the corbel, so we chose to remove the sloped mortar, grind out an inch of the mortar joint behind it and the head joints, bevel the edges of the corbel bricks to shed water, and repoint it all. The subsequent leaking during a torrential rain a week ago saturday, leads me to believe there are further issues with the wash on top, and perhaps more. (I guess that's their problem now). When i examined it during the rain, the bricks were soaked all the way around, but absolutely no sign of water along where the flashing was visible from below. I counterflashed that thing myself beneath the flashing the mason installed in the chimney.I located the skylight issue, it is unquestionably the bottom of the unit itself, are you familiar with the old velux roof windows that pivot from the center? The rubber gasket at the bottom was iffy when the units were new.As for my financial issues: I am mostly solo, time and materials, I have three older children (whom i full time single parented and fully supported for a number of years) the youngest of whom is in her fourth year of college (so have had 1 to 2 in college at any given time for the last 10 years), I half time single parent a 5 year old for whom i have paid 8000 dollars a year for daycare, run a household solo, contribute to my mother's upkeep, had a brain hemmorage just as i recovered from having major rotator cuff surgery (three torn, one completely detached) on one shoulder and orthoscopic surgery on the other one 3 1/2 years ago losing most of a years work. So, every hour I work is pretty important to my cash flow, and i work very diligently for every single one of my clients. That is the life i have created for myself. Oh, and i forgot, my final 5000 dollar annual payment to my youngest childs mom for our property settlement is due Nov. 1st. I apologize for sounding so defensive, it isn't aimed at you, it just gets tiring having the universe keep trying to teach me how to say NO, and getting stiffed for 1100 bucks while extending myself generously just rubs in that i haven't learned yet. I am going to go practice in the mirror now. All those years of therapy!! I am most grateful for your input on this. best regards, danielGee I like this paragraph stuff. I do bat well with my client matches, 499 out of 501 have been good appreciative ones, as for my attempts at marriage 0 for two so far. At least once I get this off my back, i will have been taken to the cleaners enough times I should be pretty darn clean!!! Thanks to you and everyone else, venting here has been of great value. I think I just found my sense of humour again, maybe someday I will find more source material for it.
Edited 10/17/2005 12:28 am ET by macmillan
Oh, I forgot, those steps are hand cut mortise and tenoned rosewood with the treads attached with sliding dovetails, no mechanical fasteners!!! I will admit the design is a little clunky though, they insisted.That stone retaining wall they just had built is another story though. Dry laid with running joints every couple of feet. The large cap stones are wobbling and at risk of falling on their kids, so the "reputable" company that built it is going to mortar them in place. (hey, maybe they can fix the chimney for them!!) I give it three years tops before it topples over, and the mortar will ruin the cap stones for reuse. They seem to embrace the ones who do inexcusably shoddy work, and want to screw me for creating quality. Go figure. Thanks for helping me find my sense of humour again. Best regards, daniel
Oh the messes we find ourselves in.
I don't know why you went back considering what happened the first time. I was waiting for the they didn't pay me they stopped the check line.
I have no advice to offer you. If you are expecting to clear this quickly to alleviate your financial quandry, i wouldn't count on it.
Did you have a contract the second time around????
Become friends with the enter key on your board. I almost went blind 3 times trying to scroll through your post!!
Do a search on Irfanview which is a handy freeware program to resize your pics. Those pics are on the edge for DU connections.
Likely someone will come along and resize/repost them for you.
Good luck. Now get to work on that boilerplate contract.
Eric
It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
I can't offer you too much advice based on your situation, but JLC (Journal of Light Construction) has a book titled The Contractor's Legal Kit and it may behoove you to own a copy. It's around 70 bucks, and has all the contracts contained within on CD-ROM as well. I really hope things work out for you. Where are you at? I am in Old Orchard.
Dustin Thompson
Thanks, I actually bought that book at the JLC show a number of years back, and just returned from trying to salvage the forms off of an old floppy and onto my mac. Did that damn horse get out before i closed this door?
If you'll re-write that and add paragraphs, I'll read it.
blue
rewrite and create paragraphs - before you'll read. I had same thought so what the heck, did the old copy/paste and did it for him. So here ya go:
Original post - edited to add paragraph breaks:
Hello,First I will introduce myself, I have occasionally lurked on this site for a number of years (and been impressed with the thoughtful information that is shared). I am mostly a one person show in southern Maine, doing just about everything based more on client match than work description. I have done some historic restoration, additions, and lots of problem solving work on relatively recent construction. I have also done some larger jobs utilizing other carpenters as subs and one of these projects is what I need some feedback on.
I did a major 12 month renovation/addition three years ago (Dec./01-Dec./02) and am currently in a crisis as a result. This project had no written contract (I know, I know, my other task today is to format a contract blank and actually start using it. I am a single parent and have struggled to make the administrative time, and to figure out how to get paid for it.) and I am all too aware of hitting both my feet simultaneously with that double barreled shotgun. I am going to try to attach a few photos for context, and will try not to belabour this too much and bore you all.
The project involved tearing the 2nd floor off of part of a rambling old cape and building a new 2nd floor including a 12x40 foot 2 story addition off the back. I also had to remove a 16x24 foot roof and add 2nd floor to connect the new upstairs with the old at the other end of the house.
In collaboration with an extraordinary structural engineer we pulled off some pretty spectacular feats, this whole new space being supported down through kitchen and living area occupied by the clients. They were not initially concerned with the scope of the project and were clueless about what they wanted, the addition and a new kitchen being nonchalantly added.
I built rain screen walls, bent my own copper flashing, etc. (high end quality). I am rambling here, more to the point, they freaked about the cost 80% of the way through, and let me go before completing the project.
My agreement with them involved charging everything out (labour and materials) at cost, and adding 15% for my G.C. fee. I included my own physical labour on site at a reduced rate to the labour costs, but all of my administrative costs came out of the G.C. fee. On termination, I returned 3000 dollars of my G. C. fee, not because I thought it was fair, but in the interest of finding resolution.
I had no notice, so had no other work because I was out of the loop and had turned away all my other possibilities, and I spent 2 weeks photocopying every invoice and fully documenting every cent of the project. Now to my problem.
A massive chimney in the connector hallway had to be extended about 4 feet and reflashed for the new roof. This chimney appeared to be leaking, and was one of the last things i was addressing before termination. The chimney has been leaking for almost 3 years. The clients called me up recently and apealed to me to help them fix it. They have had 3 or 4 other people attempt it with no success.
There is also a leak in a 20+ year old Velux roof window that we raised and reset in another section of the old roof which I had to add shimmed sleepers and a new 3/4 plywood deck to eliminate a roof pond. I (stupid me) went out on my own time and assessed the situation.
Obviously none of the attempts at fixing things were based on any ability to discern the real problems, and made a mess of things, mostly with tubes of caulking all over the flashing, but also undoing some of my work around the chimney and replacing it with some pretty lame attempts. No one even bothered to open the roof window, which revealed the obvious source of the leak in the unit itself. I had set three other new skylights in the same roof, but reused this existing one after consultation with the owners to save money. I can say unequivocally, that my own work (which included counterflashing and soldered copper boots around some of the chimney challenges, and bomb proof membrane and custom bent aluminum coil stock flashing around the skylight) is not the issue.
It appears that the mason I subbed the chimney work to, messed up his mortar mix and used a poor detail where the new work started from the old corbel. The skylight is a problem with the unit itself. So....I put in a day with my summer employee fixing some of the damage done by others to the roof, and then a day the week before last with a friend who does stonework repairing the corbel issue, one definitive source of the chimney leak determined by using a hose. I informed the clients that there may well be further issues with the chimney, we would have to wait until it rained, and that I could either replace the skylight, or try to add some weatherstripping to the open gaps. I spent more of my own time gathering and providing info on skylights, and collected a check for the 2 days labour including the mason.
Well, rain it did last saturday in a record breaking way, and i get a call that the chimney is leaking. I take my 5 yr. old daughter and spend an hour (again of my own time) with a flashlight trying to determine the source and plan further repair. I get a call last monday asking to meet with me, and informing me that a stop payment has been put on my check.
We meet today and the client demands to know what my responsibility is for resolving this problem. I explain that the issues are not with my work, the choice to reuse the old sky light was his, and i was excluded from any opportunity to address the chimney issues, so now after three years and people doing deleterious work on the chimney, it didn't leave me anything to work with.
I was accused of being unwilling to ever take any responsibility for things, and told I would be sued. Let's just say they can afford the best lawyer in the country without blinking, and the stop payment on that check leaves me in financial crisis. I am interested to hear what your opinions are regarding my responsibility/liability. I tend to bend over backwards delivering first rate work honestly to my clients, and I guess I will also have to willingly accept any remarks aimed at my shortcomings and stupidity. If you have arrived here, thanks for wading thru this!!!
(I did but it was a painful story to read...context wise! The adage: no good deed goes unpunished, comes to mind...)DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
Thanks Saint Shredder - after I suffered through the focal factor of the first friggin post.Now I'm waiting for photo downloads.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ok - at least Get IT right: that's Mizshredder: "The short patron saint of the long-necks!"
ROAR!!!
and what's with this? ->
Now I'm waiting for photo downloads.
That just may be TOO subtle a hint for my feeble brain to catch...DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
Here's one, resized...
View Image
DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
and another:
View ImageDUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
and the other 2 pics:
DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
You're a real gem Mizshredder2! Only a saint could have reformatted that one!
My advice is to stop working for free (him, not you Mizzie).
I would question why losing one days pay put you in "financial crisis ".
You've participated in a very poor arangement long enough. Get out of the kitchen.
Call a lawyer if you want to collect your days pay, or call the state labor board.
You're communication skills must be woeful. You need to replace that old unit. Just tell the homeowner to call Home Depot!
blue
The way I read it, he had two and a half days plus his mason's time and materials, but that still shouldn't be a financial crisis. Other poor financial management had to have led up to such a state, to be living hand to mouth when times are so good.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=64599.7
Mac - hope ya don't mind I went ahead and reformatted your post for ya...wanted it to get some more attn from readers here.
DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
Mind? Many thanks for so generously editing both text and photos. gratefully, daniel
Start with informing then that it is illegal to stop payment on a check for such a 'frivolous' reason. At least that is what i was told by my bank the last time I tried to stop payment. They wanted to have some info about my court case first. I'm not a lawyer, but it sounds like you need one and pronto. The best defense is a good strong offense, and I would get ofensive if I were you. The shereif might get involved in collecting for passing a bad financial instrument. or he might say that it's acivil case and throw you out.
Then start doing things more professionally.
Document everything as you have here in a letter to them, keeping a copy or three, explaining why they and not you are deficient, and send it certified along with a bill demanding payment for services rendered.
When you returned three grand a few years ago, you sent a signal that you could be walked on.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I think the key to your problem is a stratigic one, not a construction or legal one. You've told us you're in a financial crisis. Tell this to the people potenially suing you. Tell them that even if they win a jugdement, you'll declare bankruptcy and they'll get nothing. If that dosen't hose them off, try this:
Go to court without representation, wear a clean flannel shirt, workboots and jeans and take the folksey tone you have with us to the jury. You're just a hard-workng unsophisticated tradesman. Contrast yourself to their slick lawyer as much as possible. You will kick their ####. If not, go back to plan A above.
Contracts, smontracts. You need to screen your clients better.
I'm not all hat and no cattle, I've learned these lessons the hard way.
Not sure how long youv'e been in the business but there are many subtle and not-so-subtle clues to how this was all going to come down. Hmmm.. Might be a good topic for discussion.. Clues that its time to walk away. Not sure what the job situation is like for you. God knows we have all had to stay on a job we just knew was going to go sour. My feelings to you.
Having said that, the fact that the HO wanted to save money by reusing a skylight while at the same time appearing to have wads of cash, " they can afford the best lawyers", should have sent a strong "Danger Will Robinson."
I will not, repeat, will not reuse any but the most basic materials and be held responsible for them. I make disclaimers that must be signed. I know sometimes you feel like a legal worm making people that you want to like sign this stuff, but explain with a big grin that its all for the best and its policy or something and get that signature. You will be happy for that later. Trust me.
Think of it. What reputable mechanic do you know that would work on your truck with used parts and then warranty his work. Not done.
It sounds like you have a great work ethic and are a quality guy. Stay smart and don't put that part of you to risk. Covering yourself isn't un-workmanlike. As a matter of fact, quality clients will recognize this for what it is and not be offended by it. Then let your work speak for itself. Build a good portfolio of your work. Take pictures. Take testomonials from pleased clients. Not only will they help you gain new work they will also help you in court.
Lastly, wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to worry about all this B.S. and just get to work. Wouldn't it be great if I won the lottery. Unfortanately, thats not the times we live in. Be safe. Protect yourself and keep us posted.
Good luck.
Terence
ps. That book mentioned earlier from the J.L.C. is money well spent.
Hard Eight Bar B Que, Brady, Texas
"Always bet the Hard Eight!"
Thanks, Me thinks they must have beat me to it and consulted their lawyer first, I got my money in the mail last night.
Glad to hear it!
Hard Eight Bar B Que, Brady, Texas
"Always bet the Hard Eight!"
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