Anyone out there got any Oklahoma horror stories?? The demand for new homes are in such great demand around here that anybody who can identify a hammer can call himeslf a contractor…..please post to this and share your details…
Hit ’em hard, hit ’em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
Replies
Easy. T-O-R-N-A-D-O......just like marriages, in the beginning lotsa sucking and blowin..the next thing ya know, the house is GONE..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
I hear that....been there, done that,,,didn't like the ending.....tornado season is almost here as well....hope we get lucky again this year....ever hear of homeowners that didn't walk through a brand new house until AFTER they'd closed to do a punch list?? Happens here all the time.......Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
Read somewhere in one of the trade mags that the OKC area is going to need at least 1500 new homes every year for the next 10 years just to keep up with demand....every quack is gonna be a builder, and thats just in the OKC Metro area alone..you ought to see the subdivisions going up here...can't buy a piece of land to build on....and whats up with all these Dallas style homes anyway???Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
whats up with all these Dallas style homes anyway
That's the cryin shame of it--they're not just "dallas" homes; they're McMansions, and are a near pandemic blight across the residential horizon.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Thanks for agreeing with me..I see no reason to have all that wasted space in a home anyway....I never figured out the appeal...give me a good old Victorian style any day...Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=54393.1
Yep, that was Oklahoma.
They are really hittin' 'em hard and showing no mercy.
I'm from Oklahoma and as far as I'm concerned, any story is bad! ;) There's huge building in OKC and Tulsa. There's also a shortage of qualified GC's on the western side of the state, if anyone is interested.
Tusla is prettier than anything else in the state...there's trees and water there! Did you evere see "where the red fern grows"? It's that kind of 'ozark' pretty over there. Tulsa is more civilized, too.
Of course, my people are from the ugly side of the state where it's red dirt, cactus, snakes, and straight winds at 60 miles an hour.
Some good stuff that you can't miss........The Game Refuge down by lawton, A real rodeo in OKC just for fun, a road trip to Stillwater (don't miss eskimo joes), the Lakes on the eastern side are amazing, dancin' til you sweat anywhere in the state.
Don't drink the beer. Get your beer at the liquor store or over state lines. It's 3% alcohol, which is just water.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
I see you have spent time here...I'm a recent new comer and in all my years I've never seen crap building like I see here, with the exception of one builder. I'm in Yukon, just SW of the city and the housing boom is unreal. Poor concrete work, poor tiling jobs...you name it...the lumber here is terrible, hit it with a nail gunn and the end just literally explodes..we had far better material up in upstate NY. I did see one load of 2x4's from Idaho I got at HD and they were great, comparable to any good lumber I've ever used. Wish it were all that good. I know the deal with GC's, I'm a small one just starting out since I got here, can't get reliable help, had far better luck in NY with carpenters.......anything to add to this??? Please feel free...Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
You pretty much covered it. Watch for labor coming up from the border, unless it's paint or cement. Yukon, OKC, El Reno, is an endless sea of ugly houses all the same - they're not production (they're supposedly custom) they just look like produciton. Edmonds has some high end stuff and the subs/builders in the high end tend to be really good. There's some good rockwork on the high side of the canadian river.
If you drive down to Plano, Texas -- you'll see where that house came from that you keep building over and over in Yukon! =)
There's opportunities for unique archy and high end labor/materials in the outlying areas, but they're one off and you'ld have to travel. And advertise in the Farm Journal.
How did you end up there, man? Did you not notice that the traffic on the Grapes Of Wrath highway never really stopped? LOL
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
here here!! Never seen so many people happy to have the same house, with all the wasted space in the attic area.......all (most) of the labor here is from south...and I know professional; drywallers who charge 50 cents PSF for their work and they do nice work, but they always get beat by the "southern crew" who'll do it (poorly) for 35-38 PSF and the builders love them...I just got my butt peeled in another post here.....sounds like he's not happy about my sounding off and criticizing poor quality. I was always told that some northern boys could come to the south and make a killing...so far seeing is believing......Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
I think maybe what Ed is responding to is what he percieves as the yankee attitude. it rubs sourtherners the wrong way.
But I have seen the same no matter where I go. Texans moving to CO, Californians emmigrating to Idaho, 'Massholes moving from Boston to Maine. Nieuu Yawkahs moving to Florida and insulting the crackers. Crackers moviong to Montana...They always project an attitude that they can do it better or "back home we did thus and so..." Which always evokesa response of "why'n'ell didn't you stay home then" if'n you like things they way they are there so friggin' much"I'm not taking sides in this little tiff. You two both are decent fellahs so have it out and meet in the Tavern for a cool one on me, both of yah.I'm just expalining how folks take outside criticisms - doesn't much matter where.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well said Dr Piff. I have no problem with anyoine pointing out hack work, and you can find it everywhere. My complaint is that all he has done is b!tch about non-NY work, and beat his chest about how good he is. So he and a buddy replaced 13 others ... where's Mother Goose when you need her.
To the NY'er ... why did you move to OK anyway? And why not move back if it's so intolerable?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Well..in response to the comment about non New York work , all I can say is this...I've worked in Texas, New Mexico NY and oklahoma, and the ONLY place I've seen continual hacks is here in Okie. Sorry, but I don't remember beating my chest at all, nor do I recall saying that everything was done right in NY, don't think you'll ever hear me say that...what I was talking about was craftsmanship and the shoddy work I've seen performed countless times down here. Now I have worked with an Oklahoma crew building a couple restaurants and they are well rounded individuals in the field and take exceptional pride in their work and for that I salute them.But.....too many guys are tweaking constantly in this area, the meth capital of who knows what. One Job I was on only paid their employees every 2 weeks in order to get 2 weeks worth of work from them. Carpenters my butt!!! Not showing up on time, and I'm not talking 5 minutes late, I'm talking an hour or so late, or just not showing up at all. talk to any respectable super or lead m,an and he'll tell you how bad it is here. Now I will say this about NY, if you're 5 minutes late, don't even bother coming in, because you're done...no doubt about it.I could bash a lot of things but what I'm talking about is pouring crete at a 9 slump or higher, poor framing jobs, horrible drywall and the like. Did I ever mention that everybody was like that?? No....go back and read all these threads and you'll see i'm not the only one of this opinion........Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
you sound like you're right from this area, because the comments you made about El Reno, etc are right in my neighborhood and exactly what I'm talking about....guess we've seen it....hey are you from here originally??? I've been accused of being an outsider and not being qualified to have the opinion I do.....Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
Well, you gotta know there's wonderful parts, too. The people would give you the shirt off their backs. There is beautiful archy in some parts. There's some kick #### log homes, too. The underground houses and solar are bar none.
You just have to look hard enough to see stuff tp warm your soul.
I'm pragmatic about Texas and Oklahoma. But, it's also the place I call home.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
I worked with one outfit up from Tulsa and they were true committed individuals, I'll be back with them again as soon as their business picks up, my gripe has been concerning outfits from around the OKC Metro....I just got a call the other day to help out some old lady in her late 80's, some fly by night outfit swindled her out of 11k to reframe a fire damaged section of her house, they got the cash and never showed up to do the work...this really torques me big time......Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
whats up with the windows they use in these "custom" houses anyway?? The aluminum frame makes it look like ####trailer window from the 60's or 70's...couldn't believe it when they put them in a 6000 sq ft 1/2 million dollar house....Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
I guess that is the kind of negative comment that got you some attention
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your persistent badgering is disappointing. El Reno is a small city of 20,000 or so hard working souls that love there town. The habits of a few bad builders is not the measure of the people here in Oklahoma.
It's easy to criticize, takes no brain power. There are hacks everywhere.
I keep the company of good craftsmen and appreciate working on some great homes. I chose to be around the best and I am one of the best. When I see something wrong I enlighten and correct because as a quality craftsman it is my responsibility to do so. I am improved at my craft by my fellow workers and I improve them in return.
Simple to degrade and insult without offering your great wisdom to enlighten or offering your abilities to improve your surroundings is impotence.
If after sharing all that you know and yet you can't change the ignorant Okies from their backward ways maybe it's time you move to yet another needful state. The sooner the better.
My apologies to the City of El Reno, I responded to a thread where they were mentioned and I have thus far had no contact with people from there. My reference was directed to the "contractors" from where I have had contact and first hand knowledge, that being, Yukon, Mustang, Lawton and Tulsa and OKC.PLease follow my last couple postings and you'll see what I'm referring to,,the little old lady story really torqued me and I spoke with a man "in the know" in OKC and he told me a couple dozen horror stories referencing the same situation over and over again. He is well associated with the historical foundation, etc so knows about this for historic remodels. Coupled with my own experiences with a builder in Mustang and having direct interaction with 2 others from that area, I speak of what I know, and I did give credit to a company from Tulsa....and just to defend my position, I have given credit to the good GC's I've found, but they are far outweighed by the shoddy ones.My intent is not to say "all are bad", but of the dozen or so I've interacted with, one has been great and another was fair, the rest, well, maybe if you weren't from here and found this as a welcome to "here" you'd feel the same as I.Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
I have a couple of significant recollections of Oklahoma. First would be the heat. The first summer I was there we had 4 nights in a row where the LOW temp at night was about 110°. The highs during the day were around 118°. And absolutely NOTHING was air conditioned. When we had to go out on (Army) field problems it was always during the winter. They wouldn't let us go during warmer weather due to rattlesnakes. I also remember singlehandedly saving a building from blowing up by simply shuttin off the gas line when our platoon leader freaked out and had no clue what to do. I told him I thought I deserven a medal or something. He told me to shut the hell up and get back to work.
There is no accounting for taste, poor or otherwise.
I saw a hill once.
My only memory was as a kid, driving from California to Arkansas to see family. Had to stop on Route 66 outside of Oklahoma City cause the sand was blown so hard you couldn't see (guess that's not a problem now from the sounds of this thread, with everything paved with McMansions - LOL). When the wind died down and we could see some pavement we drove into the city - where it was 104 and 100% humidity - big fat raindrops coming down hard. My hat's off to anyond who can live in those conditions!
Oh, there's still wind. Having grown up there, I can really understand the suicide rate in the Dustbowl in the 30's. 65 mile an hour straight winds can really wear on the soul.
But, when the wind is gone, it's the freshest, cleanest air. It's crystalline. The night after a big wind is magic, you can sit outside at dusk and see all the way to Pluto.
On my mom's farm, you can see the international space station in orbit....it's really cool. No bleedthrough light from cities.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Story;
Stopped in an Oklahoma truck stop about to bust to use the restroom. Lost cap in the wind and had to run to catch it . I never did run well.
Tucked cap in bid overalls and pulled up to a urinal. There was a big man next postion over. Said , you from here? "yup". Wind always a blowin like this? " Nope , some times it blows the other way".
Thats my first memory of that state when someone mentions it. Ive been there quite a bit working and passing through. Its always like that .
Timothy
it's the freshest, cleanest air. It's crystalline.
It's woderfully dry, too. Which can be very nice, if a person has acclimated to that dryness (coming in straight from a damp river bottom can be a bit problematic).
Some great night sky, though.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I've been wondering lately what kind of wages the commercial guys are(not?) getting in Oklahoma.I work in Northern Ohio and lately I've seen what seems to be a disproportionate number of traveling supervisors from Oklahoma.Over the last 7 years we have done lots of work for the Dillard's chain (sort of high end clothing).The store HQ is in Little Rock but all of their traveling skilled construction help is from Oklahoma.The Sam's Club we did last year (Bentonville,Ark. HQ)had some Oklahoma workers.This winter we're on a Hobby Lobby(Oklahoma City HQ) kick,we've wired 4 stores here and there was a whole CREW from Oklahoma working on them.Why would some of these guys want to travel to Ohio to do demolition,sweeping,putting in ceiling pads? They seem like nice enough guys, but I just wonder what things must be like back home if they're taking these road jobs.Who wants to live in a hotel?
Just got off a trip to NM for 82 days...we built a restaurant from the ground up. I know the wages paid to carpenters (union scale) are lower than any of the other tredes, plumbers are in big demand right now.I know a guy who used to do a lot of work for Dillards, he was my first super here in Oklahoma, name of Andy, from Arkansas, really great guy...One big problem here is the pretty much unskilled labor coming in from the south. It's killing the business, I made a thread about drywall pricing here earlier today. True crews can't compete against an outfit that will only charge 65-75% of what they do and keep losing jobs. I know a lot of guys who travel all over the country even though there's tons of work around OKC. I just spoke to a guy that wants me to travel to both Arkansas and Louisiana and is willing to pay big bucks..was talking 70K for 6-8 months work, home at least once a month.A good carpenter here can make 20 bucks an hour, but most people are unwilling to pay that due the ones previously that drew that wage and turned out to be tweakers or didn't care to show up for work.I have the same situation myself finding good help, I've fired a slew of them since I've been here. Seems like either I've got a nice interior finish job to be done and all I can find is framers, or vice versa....what i'd give for a couple good all around true carpenters that actually knew more than one aspect of the job itself.Got a line on a bunch of remodels in a historic section of the city, but am afraid to bid the work because I can't find reliable and knowledgeable people, these are all in the neighborhood of 30-60k per job and more than a crew can handle, but am unable to bid them out...I'm not sure what the union scale is here for carpenters, I did some research on a website and carps wages suck, to put it politely.I'm right down the street from Hobby Lobby HQ, it's over on airport road and I'm on Morgan road, about 3 minutes...and I see they're advertising heavily for supers, etc for extensive travel...If by chance you know anybody named Andy that supers Dillards jobs...let me know...would like to get in touch with him again......thanksHit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
That would be the most important observation of all.
Why would a crew, with families, travel eight states away to work a job for 8 months?
The oil boom is gone, and there's back breakin' work or farming, which will starve you out one way or the other.
My dad, who is a salt-of-the-earth kind of guy said it best. When asked what he'd do if he won the lottery, he said without batting an eye "I 'spose I'd farm until it was all gone."
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
I think the wages around here are the result of some of my comments on this thread, I spoke to 2 different contractors that were looking for "carpenters"...ahem! I told them about my experience (20 plus years) and they told me I could drive to Edmond from Yukon (about an hour) for $9.00 an hour......told them they didn't want carpenters, they wanted 18 year old laborers......Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
If you drive down to Plano, Texas -- you'll see where that house came from that you keep building over and over in Yukon!
I always wondered where that house landed... won't stay put there either hu?
Edited 3/21/2005 2:40 pm ET by Golden Wrecked Angle
.......anything to add to this??? Please feel free... Yeah ... you have an interesting attitude. Seems like you're real unhappy in Oklahoma. Why don't you just pack up and go back to NY? You come in here, and with your first coiuple of posts you try to impress us with how bad things are in OK and how magnificent you and NY are. Why not contribute something positive to the forum? Or go away. We're not all "Trading places" kind of people, we're professionals, and your whine is boring.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
better take a look at some of the other threads on this post..not trying to whine but I see there's a lot that are adding to my sentiment.....sorry, but shoddy work is shoddy work and thats all there is to it.....When drywallers leave many many screws protruding through the rock and the finishers don't bother to make amends, thats shoddy. When tile doesn't line up on a straight run wall, thats shoddy, there are some good ones out there but from my experience, it isn't the majority of the time.....and since we're bashing somewhat, maybe you can explain how myself and one other guy got hired at a commercial job 2 years ago, with 13 of the company carpenters there before us and at the end of the first week they fired the 13 and kept the two of us to finish, and, at the end of the project we were told that they'd never have completed it without us. That was coming from somebody from Arkansas saying it. I can go on and on, and maybe you should check out the threads about concrete we've been having...I'm not trying to fight, I'm just disgusted with poor quality around here and from what I charge for my services, so are the majority of the people looking to have work done......sorry, but the truth is what it is, and this is it.......Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
"You come in here,"
Uh ... Ed? Got some bad news for ya buddy ... Texas really isn't THAT big!
Doesn't include Oklahoma ... anymore ....
anyways ... Oklahoma Horror Stories?
uh ... all I got is a brother in law from there than annoys me alot.
aside from that ... nothing.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Doesn't include Oklahoma ... anymore .... When did they get independence?
There's a joke ... Why doesn't Texas fall into the Gulf? Cuz Oklahoma sucks so much.
And from our friends to the east ... What's the difference between a horse's a$$ and a coona$$ ? The Sabine River. Of course you have to know that the term coona$$ was a term of endearment for people from Louisiana, and that the Sabine River divides the two states. Kinda loses the humor when it has to be explained.I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
So, you grew up where the Texas panhandle tornadoes end up when they get tired
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yup! I was born in Muskogee (really!) and all my people are over by Lawton now. Originally from Tennesee during the removal, but not enough indian blood left to tell.
It's actually beautiful country - a like new mexico. Once it's in your blood - you love it. To this day, it makes me happy to be there - sit out side at night and look at the stars and listen to the crickets and coyotes. It's nice to escape the crazy life I lead. My son goes to the farm every summer for a month and it's his favorite place on the planet.
I worked in the oilfield for a little bit as a welder's helper (good job, $25 an hour even back then and I calculated cut and weld angles over miles of high pressure oil pipeline) and then headed to Dallas to make my fortune. ;)
But growing up on the farm means that I have all kinds of odd skills. City folks think it's strange to know how to butcher a cow, weld, change a tractor tire, make jelly out of cactus, and all that other jazz.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
I was three years in Lubbock. Still one of my favorite places to have lived. Good people.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Tulsa is prettier than anything else in the state...
You got that right!
I spent 3 years there back in the 80's, really liked it, maybe I'd still be there if not for that damned divorce. :)
I have a brother that lives there and always enjoy stopping to visit him.
Tulsa and Austin, TX are very similar, progressive cities. Really like that.
Doug
<<Tulsa and Austin, TX are very similar, progressive cities. Really like that.>>
Ya pegged the two sweet spots for 1000 miles! ;)
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
just for fun, a road trip to Stillwater
And, depending on who is playing, the Wormy Dog is another good to go to venue in Stillwater. DLR or EJ's about the same experience--but fun in that Hard Rock Cafe sort of way.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
DW is from Tulsa, graduated from Stillwater. The red buds are pretty, but:
Ah.... but out west you can get a breath of fresh air and you can have peace and quiet without even going inside! And the rattlers tend to help keep the tourists on the main roads.
; )
(We live in southern Colorado)I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
Are you near the Sangre's? Another sweet spot on the planet.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
I'm thinking maybe I should clarify some of my previous postings on this thread.Quality is the issue I've been referring to in nearly every one of my comments and some examples are following:Concrete-have never seen yet any contractor building a home do any soil compaction, except for wetting down some sand and then pouring a 9 slump or so, and then not covering it after the pour, then building on it within a couple days. Don't people know it takes 28 days to achieve full compressive strength? Whatever happened to soil compaction anyway? Everybody says here the only guarantee you get with crete here is "it's guaranteed to crack", I agree but it doesn't have to be that way. Look at all the foundation companies in business, releveling pads, basements, etc is big business down here..why? Because of the poor quality control steps when it was poured to begin with. And whatever happened to reinforcing mesh (at the very least) or rebar?? I hear stories about the ground moving here..ok, but it does everywhere else as well, so thats not an excuse to forego quality...take the extra steps, do it right and proceed...we've got fairly frequent earthquakes in upstate NY, not to mention houses that are 150 years old and the foundations are as good as new, I don't think you could find a foundation repair service up there.......Drywall-I was in an upscale home the other day, brand new, in the neighborhood of 250k and guess what?? Screws protruding from the rock, either because they tore the paper when they screwed it or didn't sink the screw to the proper depth to begin with. I've been told by at least 4 contractors that everyone textures the rock because nobody knows how to smoothwall finish rock. When I spoke to a drywaller and was mentioning the old halogen light alongside the wall trick to check for finish..he'd never heard of such a thing!I was told once down here to install 1x4 trim boards in a restaurant that was looking for a rustic finish. The boards had been sitting out in the rain for 3 weeks and the water was running out of them when I cut them on my CMS. After a couple weeks of them drying out..guess what?? Big time gaps...and guess who got blamed for that deal, even though I told him it should be allowed to dry and acclimate before I put it in..This is the hack work I'm talking about....it can be done right and the knowledge is certainly there, but the same old "it's always been done this way" is gettin' old...why is almost everybody willing to accept this type of work?? I'm sure there are good ones out there, but they are limited, at least from my experience and what I've seen thus far. Maybe I should head out of here as some would like, because I'll not get caught up in this "it's good enough" mentality and cheapen my standards.....Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
Rock on my brother! Keep it going! Some things are worth more than money.
I too, in my limited experience, have seen the shid.
And sometimes shid ain't purty.View Image
Thanks!!! You know, I pride myself on the job I do and even if it's a job where I'm told quality doesn't matter, I still do it to the best of my ability..just to give you an example..look at one of the threads here I think it's in the photo gallery section and I've got some pics posted of a bathroom tile job I just completed...this is what I'm talkin' about and it'd scare you to know what I charged the woman...c'mon take a guess......Maybe some of think "shid" is ok, but not this boy..and then I've been accused of being an outsider talking "shid" and have been castigated here, my response was hack work is hack work, no matter what....glad to hear an Okie that refuses to accept it as well...makes me feel not alone....Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
Just another thought..I wonder how many of the ones who are responding negatively to my comments on here are actually contractors and possibly are doing business the exact way I'm mentioning?? Really makes a person wonder..............Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
Nah, it was just the direct reference to a specific location. Could have mentioned anywhere specific and offended someone.
There's good and bad all over.
BTW I give up. How much?
be politically correct
Edited 3/22/2005 3:07 pm ET by the razzman
3700....Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
Hi Ny'er,welcome to Oklahoma. I am deaf and because of that I tend to do my research to ease the pain of learning from my mistakes. By this I mean I read Fine Homebuilding, devour books from the library on building and just generally try to learn as much as I can about a subject.For some reason Oklahoma is a little behind on the times in general. I dont know if it is self perpetuating but Oklahoma lags in a lot of areas such as teacher pay, road and bridge quality, getting the states share of money from the federal gov't, etc. This doesn't help the attitude here towards progressive home building. Okies don't know much about radiant floor heat, icynene insulation. PEX is becoming more common though.I live in Tulsa and was born in OKC. I know Yukon quite well and have many childhood memories of the place. Not just Yukon but Bethany, Nichols Hills, Edmond, Norman, Guthrie... .Here in Tulsa I have seen the same shoddy work you detail in your posts. I am rather peturbed that some builders are putting out half million dollar homes that are drafty, have unprimed exterior trim work, remodelors who do not put sufficient insulation in living spaces above the garage, cement guys who dont pack the fill properly. If only they read Fine homebuilding or listened to the pros here then their work would stand the test of time. Keep up the righteous indignation. We need more people like you to call these hacks. I am beginning to realize the measure of my knowledge and am wary of taking on jobs from people who don't understand what it takes to achieve a quality result. I am not out to rip anybody off but am just thinking of what this job will look like ten or more years down the line.Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I was really starting to wonder why some of these poeple were so willing to castigate me when all I've been doing is pointing out shoddy haphazard work that people are so willing to pay good money for. I hope you've read all these threads in this posting, because the repsonse to my one comment about me and a buddy replacing 13 Oklahoma carpenters had something to do with Mother Goose, it's almost like the shoddy work is accepted and I wonder why people are so scared to pay a decent wage to a craftsman for a good job. Maybe the guy that blasted me was one of the 13...I will keep it up, I feel that as a GC I have the obligation to people who I'm bidding work to to provide a reasoning to the prices I charge and what to look out for. Those that seem overly critical to what I'm saying either have something to hide or they feel themselves they are included in the "hackmasters" I'm talking about. Shoddy work is what shoddy work is, no wonder GC's have such a hard time getting first time business or for that matter...repeat business.I'll put my work up against anyone out there and am proud of the job I do..it's not just about making a buck for whatever reason. I'm no hack, never will be, don't want to be.....guess thats just my "N.Y." attitude, as I've been told...go back through, read all the threads in this posting and see who's squawking the loudest, you'll find it's not me....maybe to make things fair..I'll start a post asking about shoddy NY work and see how that goes..after all, I need to be fair, right.I'm ticked over the flack I've caught over this, but possibly if all the GC's and potential customers really tightened down and lost the good old boy attitude, then quality would increase, profits would increase and we'd all be happier, and I challenge anyone that wants to debate this subject, because from what I see, it's all a black and white issue...either you're a hack and disagree or you're a true craftsman and do the best job you can.......please share your thoughts on this.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
A lot of the good ol' boy attitudes you refer to has a lot to do with job quality. It can blind the judgemnent of an otherwise well meaning businessman. Lol dont worry about being fair and starting a thread on shoddy NY work it will serve no point. I have read every post in this thread with keen interest and have observed the few individuals telling you that the subject of shoddy work is old or that the attitude you have since coming to Oklahoma is unbecoming. Being that you are the author of this thread you are open to these criticisms and therefore must be sensitive to them. I completely understand why you have carried on as long as you have. Basically I think you ought to just stay away from the GC's with the good ol' boy attitudes because I have had personal experience with those types. Instead look for like minded people like yourself and hopefully with time and seasoning you will be a star in your field. Go ahead, mellow out and dont worry about what people say but worry about your own work ethic. I dont know about the potential customers but I am sure they can see the educated fire in you. Your work ethic is what will get you ahead, such as when you replaced those 13 carpenters. And never let anybody get your goat up and never stoop to their level. Good ol' boy types will complain a lot. You dont need too. For example, dont say that the guy who blasted you might have been one of those 13. You can be better than that. Well, I hope you stick around in Oklahoma. I am all for new ideas and fresh perspectives. Sorry if I am telling you stuff you probably already know I just didn't want to you to fret about people who arent as close to the subject as you are in your part of OK.Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
Hey Pebble,
Okies don't know much about radiant floor heat, icynene insulation. PEX is becoming more common though.
In case you didn't know, your local Icynene installer is:
Bob PetersonSuperior Foam Insulation Inc. 25104 South 4170 RoadClaremore, OK 74017 Phone: 918-342-4603Fax: 918-341-1197Email: [email protected]
kestrel
kestrel,Oh wow I didn't know that! I just had my place foamed with icynene about three weeks by Mid America Foam, Inc. They are based in Kansas. I saw their booth at a home and garden show at the convention center. Kent Praeger was the salesguy. 1-800-334-3626 I will call them (Superior) when its time to do my mothers crawlspace and attic.Thank you! :)That pic looks eerily like the trailer Mid America had. The logo and the design are the same.I have a thread in the Energy/insulation forum about the install job on my garage apartment.Handyman, painter, wood floor refinisher, property maintenance in Tulsa, OK
Hi Pebble,
I think all the installers have about the same equipment. Someone from VVEC mentioned that they had to pay about 100K for the trucks. I don't if it's true.
Anyway, Superior Foam did our place and Icynene is nice. We're still working on the house and keep it toasty warm with just a small wood stove burned part of the day. We covered everything in the house before they arrived. I would not have wanted any of that stuff to get on the windows or the floor. Whatever it hits, it's there to stay.
Your thread was interesting. Shame about the fiberglass, but your lucky that you didn't use it.
kestrel
it's in the photo gallery section under "slate tile floor"Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
If you shrink down or color the
"Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!" and drop it down a line or two it'll look more like a tag line instead of part of the message text.
Pretty nice pics there.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=24441.1
is an old thread here on Breaktime that includes a lot of data on posting pics and the Irfanview download.
Dialup patrons of the forum cannot download real large files or will take excessive time.
Two things are necessary to assist the dialups with your photos. Making sure that the set file association is set to jpgs if you are using the Irfanview system.
The other is to keep the KG picture size to preferably under 100kgs
Some start downloading a pic only to go get a cup of coffee, heat it up, come back and find the file is only half done downloading. Just to see a pic?
Edited 3/22/2005 3:01 pm ET by the razzman
thanks...I was wondering about that........see if this looks any better...Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast...show no mercy!!!
My cousin and his family live in Tulsa, and I try to make it down there once or twice a year to visit. I think NE Oklahoma is really nice, except that it's just too danged hot in the summertime. I have to admit I've never paid much attention to any new construction there, but the older parts of town (that were built up during the oil boom in the first part of the 20th century) have some magnificent houses.
Let's see, the entire State was dry until, like, 1973.
Hmm, tornados, hail (ice, fish, pebbles, etc.); too hot, too cold; too windy; too dry, too wet . . .
Not enough scenic stuff, or it's too close to you.
Chicken farmers (I've got kin in far east OK who can't seem to tell one side of the Arkansas from the other).
Mink ranchers (see above).
Seeing your team get trampled not only on the old worn out turf in Norman, but also in Tulsa . . .
Contractor stories? Nope, all mine are on the other side of the Red River. Or one of the sides of the Sabine.
OK and ID are two states with something in common ( besides the shape on a map) They are both formed by what was left that none of their enighbors wanted. OK was made the Indian Territories because it was too arid and sparse for white families to settle at first.
Idaho was too rugged and arid to be deemed productive.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
the Indian Territories
Went to a family reunion on the Kansas-Oklahoma border. The relative (not close, back to great-grandfather at the closest) has a medium-sized place (only 12-13 kiloacres) that laps over the state line in places. He pointed out some old state line monument benchmarks that still bore the "Indian Territories" label on the OK side.
Was an interesting reunion for the span of the generations represented--almost overwhelmed being able to touch a bit of American history. The nearby caverns were also where some moderately famous femal criminal (the name escapes me) was found after becoming a bit "too famous" to hide out in the Cherokee Strip. Small world.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
During the 80s I use to bring rustfree cars from Okie to sell in the northeast rustbelt. Hence I was always taking oneway plane trips back to Tulsa.
One time I thought it might be slick to try a train ride for novelty and upon inquiring learned there was one train that went into Okla City from the west then one could bus the rest of the way to Tulsa.
They said they had future plans to bring a train into Tulsa sometime.
Also learned that the reason there were no trains going thru Okie is the laws stated there could be no liquor bought thru on the train so they would have to stop at the border, unload the liquor, travel thru the state to the other border and then load liquor back on the train on the other side.
Apparently it was too much trouble for the low amount of traffic so they discontinued the direct route thru.
heh heh There still isn't a train going into Tulsa.
be a little aluminum window.
What freakin planet are you on! The state is laced with track, freight traveling every day. This threads Oklahoma bashing is very bothersom.
you say that like yur in Oklahoma...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
A list of a few Famous Oklahomans
Johnny Bench baseball player, Oklahoma City Garth Brooks singer, <!----><!----><!---->Tulsa<!----><!---->Iron Eyes Cody Cherokee actor<!----><!---->
Alfre Woodard Actress<!---->
<!----><!---->Mary Kay Place<!----><!----> Actress<!---->
Gordon Cooper astronaut, ShawneeRalph Ellison writer, Oklahoma CityJames Garner actor, NormanOwen K. Garriott astronaut, EnidVince Gill singer, NormanChester Gould cartoonist, PawneeWoodrow Wilson Woody Guthrie singer, composer, OkemahPaul Harvey broadcaster, TulsaVan Heflin actor, WaltersRon Howard actor, director, DuncanKarl Guthe Jansky engineer, NormanBen Johnson actor, PawhuskaJennifer Jones actress, TulsaJeane Kirkpatrick diplomat, DuncanShannon Lucid astronaut, BethanyMickey Charles Mantle baseball player, SpavinawReba McEntire singer, McAlesterShannon Miller Olympic gymnast, EdmondBill Moyers journalist, HugoDaniel Patrick Moynihan N.Y. senator, TulsaPatti Page singer, ClarenceBrad Pitt actor ShawneeTony Randall actor, TulsaOral Roberts evangelist, AdaDale Robertson actor, Oklahoma CityWill Rogers humorist, OologahDan Rowan comedian, BeggsRobert Stemmons whistler, TulsaMaria Tallchief ballerina, FairfaxJames Francis Jim Thorpe athlete, PragueJeanne Tripplehorn actress, TulsaTed Shackleford actor, TulsaWilma Mankiller Cherokee chief, Tahlequah
You forgot one highly reputable person...the daydreaming drooling fool from the Dodge truck commercial thats always asking "does that have a hemi"???If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Hey Jagwah,
It sounds like your ticked off,in my post I didn't mean to offend anyone from Oklahoma.Even though work for me is slow right now, I'm grateful that work has been pretty decent for the last 7 years.I haven't HAD to go to work more than an hour and a half away (although they've ASKED me to travel much further),and I feel bad for the guys who end up having to take road jobs.Sometimes these guys are going through divorces and just want to get away and go to work.Once in a while you find a job supervisor who's a drinker and just isn't going to stay working anywhere else.
But the guys I've run into doing these Hobby Lobbys just seem like they're decent guys who are trapped into working on the road.The guy pushing the last one said he's making 70K a year, plus travel and a per diem.Is that a lot for working every day of the week and being there for some LONG days?And for going home once a month?I've got two little kids at home,so for me,until there's nothing else left,no it isn't.My original post was just to ask what is putting these guys on the road.
Barry
Easy, Easy there Jag. hooeee! I love Okieland. I even dated a waitress from Oklahoma once. Roar!
For the record I happen to like Oklahoma and would be there now if not for responsibilities here. In fact I was looking at buying some land around Tulsa till little literally falling down old shacks on tiny lots started bringing 30 to 40 thousand. Back in the 80s those same sheds were going around 5. Guess I'll end up being an out in the sticks guy fighting rattlers and brown recluse.
As for trains in the previous post I was speaking of passenger trains thru okie and into Tulsa.
Amtrak goes into Kansas City from the northeast and from there you've got to take a bus to Tulsa. Oklahoma's only Amtrak route deadheads into Dallas and back.
If you know of any passenger trains going into Tulsa I'd like to know about them. Thanks.
be ground control to major tongbe a protein pill
there's a rumor of hill...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
It's on the Kansas side tho..
fergot to mention rez isn't aware of being on ANY planet...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
A few facts about Oklahoma
<!----><!----><!---->OKLAHOMA<!----><!----> FACTS
· <!----><!---->Oklahoma City<!----><!----> is the state capital of <!----><!---->Oklahoma<!----><!---->.<!----><!---->
· The name "<!----><!---->Oklahoma<!----><!---->" comes from the Choctaw words: "<!----><!---->okla<!----><!---->" meaning people and "humma" meaning red, so the state's name literally means "red people."<!---->
· <!----><!---->Oklahoma<!----><!----> has the largest American Indian population of any state. Many of the 252,420 American Indians living in <!----><!---->Oklahoma<!----><!----> today are descendents from the original 67 tribes inhabiting <!---->Indian Territory<!---->.<!---->
· Thirty-nine of the American Indian tribes currently living in <!----><!---->Oklahoma<!----><!----> are headquartered in the state.<!---->
· <!----><!---->Oklahoma<!----><!----> has 43 colleges and universities.<!---->
· The highest point in the state is Black Mesa in <!----><!---->Cimarron<!----> <!---->County<!----><!----> (4,973 feet); the lowest is due east of Idabel in <!----><!---->McCurtain<!----> <!---->County<!----><!----> (287 feet).<!---->
· <!----><!---->Oklahoma<!----><!----> has more man-made lakes that any other state, with over one million surface areas of water and 2,000 more miles of shoreline than the <!---->Atlantic<!----> and Gulf coasts combined.<!---->
· <!----><!---->Oklahoma<!----><!----> is the third largest natural gas-producing state in the nation.<!---->
· <!----><!---->Oklahoma<!----><!----> ranks fourth in the nation in the production of all wheat, fourth in cattle and calf production; fifth in the production of pecans; sixth in peanuts and eight in peaches.<!---->
what does any of this have to do with hack carpentry techniques we started talking about????
If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
You know, over time, I think I begin to see an understanding of why you are stuck in Oklahoma...
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
c'mon, you can do better than that...enlighten me.....tell me why I should accept hack work or worse yet, why I should keep my mouth shut over it......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Hack work has no bearing on my reasoning.I base my understanding totally on my perception of your personality.And my perception of your personality is based on the aggregate total of your posts.There are hacks in every state in the union.How many others do you see here "protesting much" about same ?You got anything good to say about anybody ?
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
yep....check the previous threads and you'll see about the great outfit frm Tulsa I worked with...and then there's the cabinet maker from Edmond that does better work than I've ever seen.....re read and you'll see good and bad........If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Ok, I tried.Have at it, guy.Good luck.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Perhaps someone can start a thread on hack work in New Jersey....Just finished putting about 400 nails into my bathroom floor to reinforce it after a carpenter had already done some repair work. My dad, structural engineer, says the carpenter should be shot for some of the things he did. Plumber says I'm living on a different planet, people do it all the time, floor is way over-engineered etc. Guess whose opinion I trust?
I'll take the over engineered anytime, any place......nails are cheap...the floor sagging or giving way isn't,,,,If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I have no problem with you complaining about shoddy work in ________ (insert name of location). It happens everywhere. But I have a problem with you making broad brush statements that all the work in Oklahoma is hack work, done by Hispanics for substandard wages, and everyone is trying to screw the old ladies out of their life savings. And then you replaced 13 guys cuz you were soooo fantastic. And then a "guy in the know" down at the local ice house tells you he has a friend of his cousin who knows a crooked contractor.
If you can post specific examples of problems, with pictures to document the issue, that's great. We like to see that. But your attitude and style are, to me, very unprofessional. You're trying to impress someone with your tales of bravado and excellence, and it isn't working.
If you don't like Oklahoma, go home. You never did answer what forced you to move there.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Hey Ed....nobody here said I'm so fantastic..I have cited specific examples, the 13 carps being one of them. The screws popping through the drywall in a 1/4 million dollar house another, the crooked tiling in the 1/2 million dollar house being another.The fact guys don't show up being yet another..sorry, but when I go to a job site I don't carry a camera in my bags, I go there to work. I've got pics of my work and use them when I'm showing customers what my capabilities are.I can't help it about the comments some of my previous supers have made in regard to my quality of work and cannot prove what they said (I don't carry a tape recorder either) I can say that the comment I made about them paying every 2 weeks was factual..I can tell you that I worked for a hack builder here that wouldn't even consider letting the new homeowner do the walk through on the house until after they'd closed and then make them wait for months for the detailing...I can say that same builder would bring the sod into the yard..convince the new owners that the sod wouold be layed that afternoon of the closing, then find an excuse to not get it done that day...and then make them wait upwards of 2 weeks to a month before it got done. When I started doing customer care for these people, I was going on warranty issues that were pointed out at the time of closing and these people had been living in the houses for a year and no satisfaction.I can tell you about the owners that actually called a local TV station to complain about the builder...I can tell you about the sign on one of the main streets in Yukon blasting the builder and proclaiming to the world not to buy a house from him....Yes..there is hack work all over, but I've not been all over...I've done work in the states I've mentioned and you for some reason take exception to that fact, all I talk about is what I've experienced and seen with my own 2 eyes. Maybe you're a good builder, maybe you're not, I don't know. What I do know is this..if more people stood up and refused to accept the shabby work and actually did something about it, the hackers would soon be out of business and then we could all start charging what we needed to make a good living, give people a quality job and we'd all be happy. It's got nothing to do with the fact I'm from NY, up there they don't have the luxury of building boo-coo new homes like they do here, the building is limited and a contractor must either be exceptional or find another line of work..sub standard work will get you unemployment in a heartbeat...for my comments on concrete work and the like..perhaps you can speak from your own experience about how you've seen builders actually do compaction in the proper method and cite some examples of your quality work, because I've seen nothing as of yet from you to refute anything I've said....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Just another couple things...nothing forced me to come here, I came here of my own free will,, mainly in part due to the job situation and the growth of this area.Secondly (and I've debated whether or not to send this) All I've heard from you is a "yankee go home" attitude. You've posted no pics to refute what I've said and yet you demand them from me, sounds like a double standard in my book. I've heard nothing from you about your great wealth of experience even when I have cited examples of shoddy work. What I have heard from you is not addressing the situation at hand choosing instead to make comments about my going home and not giving any reason or validity whatsoever to prove me wrong. The labor situation is what it is, and right now builders are using the cheapest labor they can find no matter what the quality and they don't care...I suppose you live right in this area and can refute...you talk about broad brush strokes and I'm giving specific examples and you don't want to hear it, instead asking me to provide pics. I have pics posted here about the work I've done, and have yet to see yours. The labor practices are what they are and it's not gonna get any better until people quit accepting hackers and GC's only looking for the quick buck..not what the places they build are going to be looking like in a few years.....lasting impressions are far better than fleeting ones... I think my comment at the bottom of each of my postings says it all......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Unfortunatrely there will always be a need for hack builders. If customers only paid for quality products, then Walmart would be closed in a week.
I don't care if you stay or go. But the first couple of messages you posted were nothing but complaints about your adopted home, and how much better things are done "up north". That's certainly not the way to make a good first impression.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Better get your facts straight.....I just reread all my first postings and there's not one mention about how things are done much better by tradesmen up there, the only comment made was about the quality of lumber being better..I'm not looking for a fight but if you want to come after me, you'd better have the story straight because you haven't, whereas I have...it's there, my opinion has been mirrored by Oklahomans as well here.....And just for the record, as I stated earlier...where's your proof I'm wrong?? Back up what you're saying just like you expect me to(pictures) and add some credibility to your comments......I'm 44, been doing this since I was 13.......how about you???If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Hey Ed...you're from San Antonio, Texas....why so touchy about what I say about Oklahoma??There will always be a need for hack builders?? C'mon!!!!You better look at the line you've got at the bottom of your postings "I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done right the first time" sounds like you present conflicting images.......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Good builders charge good rates ... rates that are high enough to support a professional group of tradesmen, peolple who do things right. Not evereyone can afford that level of skill, so they have to hire the second (or third) tier of contractors. Same reaon many people do all their shopping at Walmart rather than Dillard or Saks or wherever ... they can't afford the higher priced stuff.
I'm not touchy about Oklahoma per se, but more the attitude you came here with. The southwestern part of the US is a little differfent than California and the east coast, and many people can't seem to accept that. They see the need to make things like they were back home, and deride the locals.I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Now I'm gonna have my say. You start right out being defensive with the yankee go home attitude toward me when I start talking about Oklahoma, as if you personally can refute my statements..you live in TEXAS!! Bravado on my part?? Maybe so, and now certainly I can speak more clearly, all the while you have lost any credibility in this forum. How far is it from San Antonio to Yukon anyway? All this talk from you about "my" attitude..you aren't even from the same state so tell me in your "professional" opinion you can possibly know more than I do about this area???You mis-spoke on what my comments were on my original threads pertaining to this subject. My facts are straight...your's should be as well.You never did answer any of my statements with any REAL fact, the case being you weren't even qualified to make comments like you did because you don't live here, here's news for ya buddy...I DO!!! Now if I started running my mouth about Texas, thats another story but I didn't..I spoke of what I've seen here..based on my interaction in the community of builders taht are FROM here and my experience as a carpenter in the northeast. And you tell me to go home??? You better stay in your own back yard because you ain't welcome to talk trash unless you can back it up, and you can't......guess since I live here I can and will.Stay in texas, from what I've heard of it they need you there.....BTW, I checked..it's 479.9 miles from there to here.....I didn't realize you drove here every day to pound nails like the ones of us who live here....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
What hackles Ed as myself is the insinuation from the start that the problem is Oklahoma. You say you only are trashing the contractors and the materials and the general labor force not Oklahoma.
And then you say Ed can't talk about anything because he's from out of state. Well so are you as much an outsider as Ed the difference is you moved here, what a few months ago?
Your initial posting as well as others who aren't from Oklahoma has been demeaning. You use the word Okies as an insult.
I was born in El Reno, Ok I live in Tulsa I was raised half my school years in San Francisco bay area. I find this state, especially the north east to be the prettiest most vibrant of it all.
The work force here in Tulsa comprises all types as anywhere in the country. Frankly poor quality is everywhere as well as great craftsmanship.
If no good craftsman are responding to your ads for help maybe they recognize the limits of your company. It takes a big outfit with a serious local reputation to pull top of the line craftsman in and keep them.
Lastly I'd rather trust the opinion of a Texan than a run away NY contractor who wants to 'hit em hard...' What's up with that?
OK..lets set this record straight...I've been here a little over 2 years now. I was referring specifically to the contractors I've had personal contact with in those 2 years. In those 2 years, one has been great, one has been fair..the other 12 or so I've had personal interaction with have been hackers. I have had contact with these hackers..what contact has Ed, or you for that matter had?? Answer--ZIP!!! Don't come in here spouting off to me about all this crap when you have no direct contact either...I'm a northerner living here and I have no say...Ed's from Texas and has a right to voice an opinion?? PLEASE!!! Now if I made the broad comment about Oklahoma sucking in all areas...you'd have a right.....however..I have not made that comment, but you people who think I have no right and have not experienced the hackers like I have may make me change my mind......you're giving yourselves a bad name and wonder why I take exception??? Go back and read his posts..they're full of trash he can't back up,,and yet I can back up what I say but you rely on him..grow up and deal with it...sounds like you just might be one of them yourself.....And the "hit 'em hard" comment is regarding taking no crap, overpower them with (as a couple of you have proven) fact and never take no or defeat for an answer....think about it......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Whoa Whoa! Cut! Time Out! Hold the Boat! Hold the Bus! Hold the Holy Mackerel!
Ny'er- Back up Sit down and take a deep breath. All is well. No need to did get on the defense.
We're all level headed here.
Ed and Jag are just speaking their piece in a civil manner without hostility.
Your last post comes out sounding a bit commanding in an aggressive sort of way, much more than the tone of their posts would dictate.
Must be that NewYorker temperment coming around. :o) but all is well.
This forum desires a certain air of civility in discussion as among gentlemen. These guys are both experienced professionals in their own right.
Let's rethink the stratagem in these posts and not let a good topic in the thread be dissipated into argumentative comments of a personal nature.
be found in peace
NY'er
I've been reading this whole thread, some of it is kinda funny.
up there they don't have the luxury of building boo-coo new homes like they do here, the building is limited and a contractor must either be exceptional or find another line of work..sub standard work will get you unemployment in a heartbeat...
This is something that you said several posts back.
Now it sounds to me like your saying that hack work does not happen in NY. I'd have to disagree with you, I've seen reports of hack work in NY, matter of fact, seen reports of hack work in just about every state.
I'm not a Texan, but I live here, been here 2+ years, lived in Tulsa, Ok for three years. Lived the majority of my life in Iowa.
I've been doing this construction/carpentry/cabinetry work for more years than you have. I've seen some very good work in Ok, seen some amazing stuff down here in Texas, as well as Iowa. Actually I've seen some amazing work in just about every place I've been, that includes NY, maybe it was yours.
I can write that same paragraph and put hack work in in place of "amazing work".
I'll agree with you on the wages that are being paid, I don't care for it. You did mention that "we" aren't getting what we deserve.
I make good money, yea I'd like more, and I think I'm worth more. I probably make twice, maybe three times what most carps in Texas make.
The reason that I make what I do is because I learned to do the stuff that the average carp didn't care to learn. Same reason that Stan Foster makes what he makes.
If your not making what you think you deserve than I'd say maybe you should look within. Quit competing with the track home crowd. Demand, to a certain extent dictates what we make.
There is a reason that those track homes are being built, people can afford them, everybody cant afford the $75,000 kitchens that I'm luck to build.
I think your being unreasonable in regard to Ed, I wont argue his position, he's more than capable of that himself.
I think the you came across as saying that "these damn Okies don't know how to do anything" and that it takes a guy from NY to come down here and save everybody from their own stupidity. I'm not suggesting that that's what you meant, just that it comes across that way.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Try stepping back and relaxing some, hell your not in the big city anymore. Loosen up.
Doug
PS, I can back my post with pictures and facts if thats what you need.
I think the you came across as saying that "these damn Okies don't know how to do anything" and that it takes a guy from NY to come down here and save everybody from their own stupidity. I'm not suggesting that that's what you meant, just that it comes across that way
That's what I have been trying to say. I don't always say what I mean, cuz sometimes my tongue gets in front of my eye teeth and I can't see the words I'm saying.
My apologizies for stepping on your toes.I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I can buy that , Ed.....but it never was my intention. My intention was to bring the hacks to light and also to see if it was a prevalent as it is here, because in my experience thus far it is rampant in this area of the state. I mentioned the greta outfit up from Tulsa I worked for and they were true craftsmen, and I had one fair outfit. The builder I worked for was nothing better than a cheap used car salesman, all he lacked was the plaid pants and jacket. he'd smooze the potential customer until he got them to sign and forget about them, I've actually watched him get into a fight with them 15 minutes after he closed on the house. The big deal with the customer has always been the quality of work and if you ever get the chance.....contact the local chamber of commerce here and ask about home builders..see who they tell you to stay away from because they have no problems telling you to stay away from so and so...and so and so.....no joke.The replacement story I told you was complete truth, me and a bud did replace 13, and they were all making more than we were offered. All the hotel bills, food, travel was paid and they didn't even bother showing up for work half the time,,,,the super was sick of it and thats why we were hired in the beginning...smoking dope when they did show up on break, no work ethic, you name it, and it was there. What an introduction to carpenters in Oklahoma!!!! See why I might have an attitude?? I've got a circular saw in my truck right now...have been carrying it for the past 8 months, a guy that was on our crew didn't have a license, so he was hitching a ride with a friend in his car...didn't want to carry the tools back and forth....one day, he just disappeared, never to be heard from again..his bags, his saw, you name it.....too much dependence on drugs from what I'm told.Anyway, I've still got it in the event he ever calls any of the old crew and wants it back, but after this long it's unlikely.I worked for a framing crew last year, would you believe not a one of them owned a level?? Not one, the boss had to supply it or they borrowed mine. Plumb bobs?? unheard of..... Have seen guys around here who don't have a clue what a sliding t-bevel is. I can go on and on but it's a moot point.....all I've ever been trying to bring to light is the hacks and I was curious if anyone else out there considers themselves a craftsman as I do and if they were sick of it.....we're our own worst enemy....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I don't know about this New Yorkie (New York/Oakie) but I'd sure like to see a few more of those back-up photos.
How are you liking mesquite, compared to the northern native hardwoods, now that you've had a little time to work with it? I saw some great stuff in Santa Anna the other day. There were several board feet straight and long enough to actually make something "non-rustic" out of it.
For some reason I thought of you right away when I saw it. First brain flash was, "who around here is actually going to know what to do with wood that perfect?"
I guess my point is that there are lots of Texans doing some incredible stuff. Our styles and techniques are probably vastly different from what you are familiar with where you earned your wings, but there are some real craftsmen in the Texas style.
For the most part you've been complimentary of that style and seemed to flow with it very well. You brought skills and techniques with you that few people around here are used to seeing and I'm sure you've improved the craftsmen who were paying attention while they were working around you.
I know you've seen some pretty crappy stuff in the high dollar homes you are working on around Austin but I don't remember you saying a word about it. I have seen you point out the quality stuff though. A lot of it was yours, but not all of it.
I think that attitude is one of the distinctions between the folks who make money while improving the work environment around them at every turn and the otherwise skilled complainers who struggle to make a living at the craft they love.
We all have to wade through muck in our professions at times but the true craftsmen rarely rally around the guys who spend the majority of their efforts scraping it off their boots. The longer you stand there worrying over it the deeper you sink.
So post those photos would you? It's knee deep around here already and we're still sinking!
Kevin
I replied to your post to me, don't know what happened.
Every sentence was a link! I have no idea what happened.
I'll reply latter, got to do something
Doug
Nope..no reason to post pics....you'll see throughout all my posts I've never even been at the point of saying all contractors were hacks, thats opening up a can of worms I don't want to venture into. I'd never be stupid enough to make foolish comments along that line. My attitude all along has never been to say anything like that...what I've been talking about are the "hacks" and I've uttered comments about them more than the quality ones(but I have mentioned them as well) and I just got done last night reading an interesting article in a trade mag about a firm up towards Tulsa. The good GC I worked for came from the Tulsa area and now I read about this one as well.Guys..I'm not from NYC, nowhere near it..In fact, I'm about as far away from NYC as possible and still be in NYS. I come from upstate NY, right on the canadian border. My comment about the contractors holds firm, if you're a hack there you ARE unemployed, and in a hurry. I've never dealt with anyone in NYC from a construction standpoint so I cannot say, but I'm sure they are there and probably are thriving.Hacks are everywhere, all I've been referring to are the ones around here and they are in the majority, anyone who knows anything about contracting can see it if they only want to. All my postings on concrete, poor trim....walls out of plumb, bad tile, etc..are all right on the mark, but only for the areas of Oklahoma I've worked in, and that is from Yukon to Lawton.....My comment about the hackers from Tulsa were stemmed from the fact I mentioned about how we replaced 13.....no offense to anyone who doesn't fall into this category, but if you look, you'll see I never made any comment about ALL Okies(and I don't use that in bad manner)..just the ones I've had contact with....nuff said.....but rest assured I'll be happy to keep pointing out slop work , as we all should to maybe put a stop to it all so we can all make big bucks and actually feel good about what we do...Maybe I will start carrying a camera..just for enlightnment, if nothing else..not to say "I told ya so"....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
NY'er-
Don't even think about drawing back or leaving this site.
What you are bringing back to this forum is similar in flavor to the BT of old. The informative debates dealing about construction trades as opposed to the abundance of political jive more common of late.
It's a welcomed opinion regardless of technique in approach.
Others have a right to present their views as you have a right to present yours and the world goes around.
When you're wrong you'll know it. BT can have a way of getting down to the brass tacks of a situation. And it's good.
Forum reading can be tricky in trying to accurately understand a poster's intent, attitude and character from the few written words that occur here.
This forum houses members that run the gauntlet from the harried inquisitive homeowner or wannabes and nontrade readers, to the solo remodelers, DIYers and a wide range of building contractors, company and corporation owners with decades of wide experience under their belt.
So you're welcome here.
Being a newbie and coming in with strong opinions can be like an invite to get yer head hacked off.
But it's good as iron sharpens iron.
So no need to sweat it. You've got a lot to offer.
be an offering
Thanks Razz....maybe if I'd not presented myself as a NY'er and just acted like an Okie then it would have been different, but thats not the case..I am who I am and I've never been afraid of a challenge....I can see you've been reading my posts and you've seen the responses....really does make you wonder doesn't it??From what I've seen on here, nobody yet has offered much in the line of proving me wrong, which just leads me to believe I'm on the right track. I did have some threads from a gentlemen up toward Tulsa that provided great insight and his words were inspiring.....The labor situation is what it is....and my broad stroke comment has dealt with contractors from Tulsa to Lawton so it doesn't seem to me that I'm just being specific to one little area....you saw the response I got after my morning's postings.....that really makes me wonder.......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Hey Razz...just got off the phone with a contractor...this may help elude to what part of the problem is.....not sure what people in your area feel a good wage is for true carpenters, but a contractor I just spoke to thought that being in the 20-25 dollar an hour wage was completely out of the ballpark, irregardless of the years of experience.This isn't the first time I've heard this same scenario down here, guess making 40-50 grand every year is asking too much. No wonder there's so many people traveling out of state to make a good wage.....and why quality is lacking here....I remember a saying from long ago concerning motorcycle gear.."you got a 10 dollar head, put it in a 10 dollar helmet".....value is a perceived option, if people are willing to accept crap work, there's 2 reasons: 1-Lack of knowing any better and, 2-not being able to see the forest for the trees. If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
The wages you're seeing may be mostly due to OTHER low wages where you live. Around here carpenters start just above minimum wage. I don't know many that make more than about $12 an hour.
Sign in the middle of a field: "The farmer allows walkers to cross the field for free, but the bull charges."
Where is that?? I thought about that, and it just so happens I spoke to a rep from the carpenters union (another matter altogether) and he told me that the carpenters had the lowest pay scale of any of the trades, thats for this area I assume. Thanks for the input....I appreciate it...If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I haven't really had a problem with anything you've said, personally. I'm located in Rural Illinois. Most carpenters around here are young guys, as you can't live on what carpentry pays. Can't raise a family on $10 an hour.Union wages are higher, but you never work all year long. Winter layoffs are the norm.
If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
I hear that...the winters usually get guys laid off in NY as well...Used to be in the Marines with a guy from Glen Ellyn, Ill.Thats about what they want to pay carpenters down here as well...no wonder the work is mostly hack....you got a lot of that up your way??Thanks for responding..just wanted to make sure I didn't sound crappy to you......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
There's a complete range here - From hacks to excellent people. A lot of the better ones are one man shows, so they don't have to pay workman's comp. That helps keep 'em competitive.
I'd live life in the fast lane, but I am married to a speed bump.
with a guy from Glen Ellyn, Ill.
Small world, my family lived in Glen Ellyn, '68-70, back when it was actually "out of town." The brand new subdivision was actually out of GE and butted up against the Wheaton city line. It was a good couple of miles through cornfields to get to Geneva (I think) where the McDonalds was. It's all metro "chicagoland" now. If it weren't for the pond in the Phase I of the subdivision, I wouldn't have recognised the place in '92.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Boss...didn't like the tone of my posting to you..no offense intended.....I was talking to the union rep a few days ago about the possibility of joining up even though I've never been a member before.....when I said the "just so happens" comment, it wasn't meant in a deragatory manner...hope it wasn't taken as such.....ThanksIf you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
A closely guarded secret and why we don't have any passenger rail here is that we got the prettiest women in the entire country. We gotta protect those beauties.
Only two things in Oklahoma.Steers and que...What do you mean, you heard it before ?
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Ok, how about,Oklahoma, where the men are men and the sheep are nerv...What ? Heard that one to ??Dagnabbit.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
anybody who can identify a hammer can call himeslf a contractor.....
Where do ya want me to dump these boards??